The iCam, iMacs and Consumer Widescreen Video

ensign pulver

OK, here's my take on Apple's next big push in consumer video. I claim no inside info, just some hopefully informed speculation and educated guesswork. It requires three separate initiatives.



Step #1 The Camera

Apple will release a true combo digital still camera/DV camcorder based around the 20 GB Toshiba drive used in the iPod. This alone would be breakthrough for literally putting two boxes into one, but it needs one more "sit up and beg" trick. Widescreen. Native 16x9 support in a consumer DV camcorder would put Apple way ahead of any current solution. Great you say, my new iCam does widescreen, but what about my editing hardware and software?



Step #2 The Hardware

All widescreen iMac lineup. This has been rumored, but once you tie it to consumer level 16x9 video editing it makes a lot more sense. The 15" iMacs go bye-bye, replaced by two 17" widescreen (1440x900) models, (one combo, one Superdrive) and a new 19" widescreen (1600x1024) uber-iMac.



Step #3 The Software

From MOSR (yes, I know?)

"iMovie 3.0 is nearing the beta stage, and should be in the hands of Mac users in November, according to sources. Among the many new features will be much-asked-for widescreen format support, to complement the expanding family of wide-screen displays on Apple computers - along with another much-requested feature, Chapter Marks."



iMovie 3 imports your 16x9 footage from your new iCam and edits and displays it natively on your 17" or 19" widescreen iMac. Throw in iDVD 2.5/3 also with native 16x9 support, and you've got a fully integrated, point and click 16x9 editing solution light years ahead of anything in PC world.



This is something Steve could do a lot of arm waving about and would certainly reinvigorate the iMac line. Great stuff for an ad campaign and for Switchers too.



MWSF 2003 is only three months away! What do you all think?

faeylyn

Apple's rumor squashing department is in high gear, it seems. I'm surprised they've been able to keep so many secrets. They really do have some mucho cool stuff in the works.



But there will always be ways to get people to talk. Everybody has a price.



iCam? Yes, Apple will be coming out with an "iCam", in spite of what many of "experts" claim. No, it won't be called iCam. And the 20GB Toshiba drive, while certainly very nice, won't be the killer feature. The one feature I'm willing to share is this:



<a href="http://www.foveon.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.foveon.com/</a>;



"The Foveon X3 represents the most significant breakthrough in digital camera technology since the invention of CCDs over 30 years ago. This new technology combines the immediacy and excitement of the digital photography experience with the quality that exceeds what consumers have previously come to expect only from film," says Jim Lau, Foveon's CEO.



In addition to increased color resolution, the new technology integrates high-resolution still photography with professional-quality full-motion video within a single image sensor enabling a new class of dual mode still/video digital cameras. "Current image sensor technology has not enabled digital cameras to realize their full potential. We believe the breakthroughs of the Foveon X3 technology will form the foundation of a new generation of digital cameras in all classes.", continued Lau.



The Foveon X3 is the world's first color image sensor that captures red, green and blue light at each pixel, resulting in brilliantly sharper images, enhanced color, and freedom from unwanted "color rainbow" artifacts common in photographs from today's digital cameras. Foveon X3 image sensors detect color in a manner similar to that of color film. With film, different colors of light penetrate to different layers of photosensitive material, with each layer detecting a specific color. Using a similar concept, Foveon X3 image sensors consist of three layers of photo detectors embedded in silicon and are the first to detect three colors at every pixel location. The name X3 comes from a unique capability that the Foveon X3 technology brings - the ability to capture three colors at each single pixel location."



After the initial introduction, nothing. That's because Apple pounced on this technology faster than Rosie on an unguarded donut.



And I'm hear Steve thinks it would be nice for Apple's bottom-line if this came out in time for the Christmas buying season.

ensign pulver

[quote]Originally posted by Faeylyn:

<strong>



iCam? Yes, Apple will be coming out with an "iCam", in spite of what many of "experts" claim. No, it won't be called iCam. And the 20GB Toshiba drive, while certainly very nice, won't be the killer feature. The one feature I'm willing to share is this:



<a href="http://www.foveon.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.foveon.com/</a>;



</strong><hr></blockquote>

Excellent point Faeylyn. I was going to mention Foveon myself, but I was trying to keep the subject of the thread very specific: the proposed synergy of an Apple branded DV camcorder and 16x9 native consumer hardware and software. Do your sources have anything to say on this subject?



[ 10-07-2002: Message edited by: Ensign Pulver ]</p>

admactanium

well, the foveon chip is coming out in a dslr format from sigma. the model is the sigma sd-9 and is due in stores within a week or two. i have one on order. but if apple came out with a point and shoot foveon chip camera, that would be mucho cool.

murk

A Foveon camera that combines high quality photos and high quality video is the thing that will make me ebay my digital still and digital video cameras. Since the idea of an Apple cam was first mentioned, I've felt this killer combo was the feature that would help Apple break through in this very competitive area. Now is the time, however, to establish the beachhead. I'm sure someday everyone will have combo cameras worth using, but right now there is no competition.

aphelion

[quote]Originally posted by Aphelion:

<strong>As a precursor, the Fuji device adds the missing link of both video and high resolution stills. Apple needs a follow on to the iPod. An Apple iCam could be the home run APPL needs to position itself as a consumer space leader and innovator.



Apple! innovate! use a Foveon chip and make it slick!</strong><hr></blockquote>



Quoting myself from another <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002497&p=1"; target="_blank">thread</a> "Apple iCam precedent" this would be a great chance for Apple to latch onto the paradigm change that the Foveon chip will provide to the imaging industry. This is a breakout opportunity that could establish Apple's innovation in a whole new area.

michael grey

I dunno. I was the one who brought up the Foveon in the forementioned thread to, but I did so because I didn't think even this was such 'breakthough' technology.



Before Christmas Kodak is expected to rollout its newest pro camera, <a href="http://www.kodak.com/country/US/en/corp/pressReleases/pr20020924-23.shtml"; target="_blank">the DCS Pro 14n</a>. This thing is a 13.89 megapixel SLR. And that's true optical - not interpolated. It's got a full size CMOS chip so you loose nothing to focal length. The body is is about $4k, but for a digital camera that truely rivals 35mm, this is a great price (especially when you consider that most serious phototgraphers already have a lot of money tied up in lenses.)



I know, I know...this camera is for pros. But guess what? It just raised the bar for everyone.



I've said it before and I'll say it again. No amount of storage and no snazzy interface is going to make an Apple-branded camera a hot seller. If it doesn't take pictures better than your average FinePix or ELYPH, then only the AI community will buy it.

aphelion

[quote]Originally posted by Michael Grey:

<strong>I dunno. I was the one who brought up the Foveon in the forementioned thread to, but I did so because I didn't think even this was such 'breakthough' technology.</strong><hr></blockquote>



Not that it matters much, but my post mentioning Foveon was the 8th post in the thread, posted on 09-25-2002 03:06 PM



[quote]Originally posted by Aphelion:

<strong>An Apple iCam could be the home run APPL needs to position itself as a consumer space leader and innovator ... Apple! innovate! use a Foveon chip and make it slick!</strong><hr></blockquote>



Your first mention of the Foveon chip was posted 09-29-2002 01:18 PM, after a long and somewhat tedious exchange with Eugene.



[quote]Originally posted by Michael Grey:

<strong>Now if Apple was to, say, be the first out the gate with something like the Foveon chip, then maybe, maybe they could make a unique video camera. But I gotta believe that all the other camera makers have already been working on this.</strong><hr></blockquote>



On this we agree. And I have to agree with Eugene, that a third party (say Kodak) would be the actual manufacturer of the product for Apple. You mentioned the new Kodak DCS Pro ($5K!) but i think that an Apple product with the Foveon chip would address a different market, consumers who want a combination video and still digital camera at a much lower price point.

michael grey

If you mentioned the Foveon chip first, then I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply this was my idea. And yes, Eugene and I are at opposite ends of an arguement that will probably continue until Apple proves one of us wrong.



As I said in my last post, I understand that the DCS 14n is a pro camera, but I wanted to make the point that there are some other innovative technologies out there. If Apple is going to jump into this market it better have something up its sleeve besides just a Foveon chip.



If I thought Apple could produce a very small, easy to use digital hybrid with 3 megapixel or better stills and 550 line video, then I would be more optimistic. But this would be quite a feat for someone so new to the market.



A more likely scenario would be, as you pointed out, a Kodak or other camera company actually manufacturers the product for Apple. Which begs the question, if Kodak or whomever can build these cameras for Apple...why not just build them for themselves?



Apple loves to 'leverage' technology from smaller companies (like Pixio's iPod OS), but it's relationship with much larger companies has usually been limited to COTS components (like the iPod's Toshiba HD). I don't see any of the big guys making a camera, in whole or in part, for Apple anytime soon.



But...I've been wrong before.

ensign pulver

I'm glad to see people basically supporting the concept of a Foveon based combo still/DV camera from Apple. To me it's a no-brainer. Right now consumers must choose between spending $200-$700 on a still camera or $400-$1200 on a DV camcorder. Even if the consumer plunks down the money for both, he still has to juggle two boxes or decide whether little Timmy's soccer game is a "still image event" or a "movie event".



The proposed iCam via its Foveon chip and 20 GB hard drive puts both devices into one box while actually improving on the functionality of the dedicated devices it replaces. It's the exact same fusing of portable FireWire hard drive and MP3 player acheived by the iPod. The iPod is the best portable drive on the market as well as the best MP3 player on the market, at the same time! The iCam will do this too. For substantially less than buying both a stand alone still camera and a stand alone DV camcorder, you have one smaller, better, more ergonomic device that does it all. Extreme image quality is not the issue, convergence is.



Anyway, my question remains: "what about widescreen?" If MOSR is right and iMovie 3 will support 16x9 video, then Apple must be readying 16x9 hardware. They won't build that feature into iMovie and then leave its implementation to third parties. No way.



MWSF 2003 will see a Foveon based iCam with native 16x9 capture as well as an all 17"/19" widescreen iMac lineup and iMovie 3 to support it.

aphelion

Ensign I salute you ~ although I have no reason to believe you, the product in your post would truly be a godsend, both to Apple and to digital age consumers.



Let's just hope that Apple has foresight you exhibit, to innovate in this sphere. What a Christmas present this would be if they were able to get this out in time.

overhope

Hmm, great info, I'm looking forward to seeing this one (although I love my Sony DV cam...), however, I really do think that hard-drive based DV cameras are a non-starter: the media needs to be removable, unless you tether yourself to being near a computer all the time you're filming (and, yes, I can kill off 20GB in one go without a problem just being at a party, let alone during a holiday).



So, until 7mm-high hard drives start to approach the price of Mini-DV tapes, I can't see myself having a camera bag full of them ready to go...

ensign pulver

[quote]Originally posted by Overhope:

<strong>however, I really do think that hard-drive based DV cameras are a non-starter: the media needs to be removable, unless you tether yourself to being near a computer all the time you're filming (and, yes, I can kill off 20GB in one go without a problem just being at a party, let alone during a holiday).



So, until 7mm-high hard drives start to approach the price of Mini-DV tapes, I can't see myself having a camera bag full of them ready to go...</strong><hr></blockquote>



The recording capacity of a hard drive based DV camcorder is an issue, but you still get 90 minutes of footage which is more than enough for most people.



The "loss" of removable media is also a matter of perspective. For every pro user who thinks "I don't get to swap out mini DV tapes? Darn!" there are 10 consumers who think "I don't have to swap out mini DV tapes? Yippee!"

matsu

The life of the HDD may be an issue though. These are still awfully tiny HDD's and the constant writing may not be the best thing for their lifespans. Great for digital still, but video may be a bit problematic.

faeylyn

[quote]however, I really do think that hard-drive based DV cameras are a non-starter: the media needs to be removable, unless you tether yourself to being near a computer all the time you're filming (and, yes, I can kill off 20GB in one go without a problem just being at a party, let alone during a holiday).



So, until 7mm-high hard drives start to approach the price of Mini-DV tapes, I can't see myself having a camera bag full of them ready to go..<hr></blockquote>



Apple isn't remotely thinking of going after anything resembling the pro video camera market. Why would they?



This device is a consumer-oriented device. Mass consumer. Lots of sales. And while high quality video will fill up a 20GB drive rather quickly, how much MPEG4 video would fit on 20GB? I think most consumers would be very happy with MPEG4 quality in a device outlined above.

ensign pulver

[quote]Originally posted by Faeylyn:

<strong>

This device is a consumer-oriented device. Mass consumer. Lots of sales. And while high quality video will fill up a 20GB drive rather quickly, how much MPEG4 video would fit on 20GB? I think most consumers would be very happy with MPEG4 quality in a device outlined above.</strong><hr></blockquote>



Excellent Faeylyn. I'm brain dead for not having seen the MPEG-4 angle. Does anyone have any hard numbers on MPEG-4 file sizes for DV? How much improvement is there over the 5 minutes per GB rule for mini DV? If our HD based iCam could hold three or four hours of footage then we're getting somewhere.



There's another way around the storage problem too. If the interface on this thing does for camcorders what the iPod did for MP3 players, then maybe previewing and deleting unwanted footage directly from the camera's screen is feasible. The real breakthrough with digital still cameras wasn't that you could take a hundred pictures, it was that you could lose the bad pictures on the spot and come home with a hundred keepers. If a HD iCam let you shoot and delete all day and then come home with fours hours of keeper video, then that would truly rock.



[ 10-08-2002: Message edited by: Ensign Pulver ]</p>

faeylyn

MPEG4 file sizes are variable and depend on a lot of stuff, but the MPEG4 standard calls for bit rates from a low of &lt;64 kbps to a high of 4Mbps. So assuming you tried to get the best results possible (to be used to make a DVDs, not for streaming stuff), that would be something like 30MB per minute of video. That quality would be roughly comparable to digital tv.



20GB/30MB = 600+ minutes or 10 hours of video.



If you're willing to sacrifice just a little bit of quality (say SVHS quality), the amount you could fit on 20GB would probably triple.



I'm just guessing though. I could be wrong.



[ 10-08-2002: Message edited by: Faeylyn ]</p>

matsu

For this matter, even MPEG-2 could deliver acceptable compression, Most of your DVD's are only 4.7GB and they fit 2 hours of video. A 20GB HDD would easily fit about 8 hours (enough for a few recording sessions). Sony's MicroMV format already uses MPEG2. Early indications are that the cameras using this system are not as good as MiniDV and have problems dealing with wide dynamic range. It's always better to have higher bit-rate source material, your DVD's look great cause they're made from great source material and encoded with the best dedicated hardware, it will be a long time before similar quality encoding can be done in-camera.



Still there's the issue of the lifespan of the hard-drive. I'd only feel compfortable with this option if the HDD came in a PC-Card carrier and could be easily replaced upon failure.

michael grey

Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't edit from MPEG directly, can you? If your proposed camera compresses video into MPEG on the fly, then you won't be able to edit it in iMovie once you pull it off your camera.



I'm sorry, but MPEG recorders are nothing new, and they haven't really taken off, mainly because MiniDV tape is a cheap, reliable medium for storing raw DV.



I'm really not trying to be a pessimist, here. Honest. Just a realist. A camera is not a storage device, it's a capture device.

macsrgood4u

This all sounds great...... but, it's gonna cost a bundle. Any new technology does and I t hink we're talking about a camera in the $2000 range. Not exactly consumer-friendly. In time, yes, the price will drop.

satchmo

Does everyone think an Apple video camera is a given?



I'm looking for one since my old Hi8 does not output digital out directly.



I would think it's a logical product to launch given Apple's push in digital video, iMovie and Final Cut Pro.