[B]While stressing my utmost contempt for all forms religious extremism, putting all of them on an equal footing would be disregarding these facts:
In the ?fundamentalist Christian? USA you can have an abortion (though with more risk of violent harm to yourself than in say, Finland)[i] [QUOTE]
It's always made me uncomfortable. Particularly as both sides of the argument profess to be caring & concerned, and both act with such righteous indignation..before reaching for their guns...
Christianity has certainly much to be ashamed of, particularly with regards to the treatment of Jews...
Hardly believe they all call Yahwah/God/Allah the one & the same supreme being in whom their all three faith rests.\
While stressing my utmost contempt for all forms religious extremism, putting all of them on an equal footing would be disregarding these facts:
In the ?fundamentalist Christian? USA you can have an abortion (though with more risk of violent harm to yourself than in say, Finland;
in ?moderate Muslim? Egypt you can have your little daughter's clitoris removed with even less risk to yourself.
Quote:
Originally posted by aquafire
It's always made me uncomfortable. Particularly as both sides of the argument profess to be caring & concerned, and both act with such righteous indignation..before reaching for their guns...
In case I wasn't clear, I wanted to stress that the most fundamnetalists in the West still fall short of many seen as ?moderates? elsewhere.
On the other hand, the fact of present-day Islam's being far more intolerant than the other Abrahamic religions cannot be a worse indictement of Islam, given that the two others are more tolerant not by their own merit but by the merit of being restrained by modern, secular (partially or wholly) states and civil societies.
My opinion is that Islamic culture can and should go through a process of secularisation and modernisation, it certainly made a world of good to the West and to others who did.
Quote:
Christianity has certainly much to be ashamed of, particularly with regards to the treatment of Jews...
Hardly believe they all call Yahwah/God/Allah the one & the same supreme being in whom their all three faith rests.
Any religion will do such shameful things if given the temporal power to do so.
As an aside, the Tetragrammaton (the letters I-H-V-H) is, according to Jewish belief, is the secret Name of said omnipotent omniscient Eternal, its pronounciation is unknown (it's believed it was known to a select few in ancient times, and invloved minute precision in sound modulation and the like, when uttered), and thus forbiden according to those strictly observant of the commandments; Allah is not, itself, a name but simply the word ?God? in Arabic.
On the other hand, the fact of present-day Islam's being far more intolerant than the other Abrahamic religions cannot be a worse indictement of Islam, given that the two others are more tolerant not by their own merit but by the merit of being restrained by modern, secular (partially or wholly) states and civil societies.
My opinion is that Islamic culture can and should go through a process of secularisation and modernisation, it certainly made a world of good to the West and to others who did.
Any religion will do such shameful things if given the temporal power to do so.
I could not agree more. Dispite some members claimed in an old thread, Islam is not inherently evil, but need to enter in a process of modernisation and secularisation. This process will allow the islamic world to be more in phasis with the modern tech world, but will still allow her to keep some important cultural values wich are her signature.
It wasn't the West having printing press that developed it's status. Korea had a moveable metal type printing press hundreds of years before Europe. The major factor in the development of the West was money (ergo power)and the expansionist (colonialism) that came with it. This mentality can be seen through the colonial period's search for easier access to resources, through the "Manifest Destiny" mind set of America in it's push to tame "the West", and in the current affairs of the market culture in Europe and America. What put the West to the forefront was the accumulation of wealth.
It makes me think what the world would have been like if Imperial China had followed through with a colonial policy (they thought about it briefly and sent expeditions) a few hundred years before Europe instead of saying it's not worth our time, (they were too busy fighting the Japanese, the ornery bastards they can be).
As for Islam, give them a good infusion of cash, properly spent to develop and infrastructure and a competitive market economy that's not dependent on gov't controlled oil, and perhaps a good stiff drink and a few strippers and they should be straight.
The major factor in the development of the West was money (ergo power)and the expansionist (colonialism) that came with it. This mentality can be seen through the colonial period's search for easier access to resources......
Your kind of almost right, but your putting the cart before the horse, if I may use such an old analogy.
In what might seem the greatest irony of history, it was the Islamic / muslim embargo on European merchants using middle eastern trade ports and over-land routes to access the goods of India & China, that motivated Europeans to look outwards.
Columbus went to Queen Isabella of Spain with the then wierd notion that the world was round. & if that was the case, then Europeans traders might be able to circumnavigate the Islamic / muslim trade monopoly / embargo, by travelling not East to West...but over the Atlantic going West to East...
.
The fact that Columbus bumped into uncharted territory, discovered the new world & brought untold wealth to Spain ,actually meant little to him, because until his dying day he considered himself a failure at the one true task he had set himself..& that was to open up a trade route to China & India.
In parallel, the pursuit of the fabled North-West passage to Asia & the pacific continued to haunt European merchants & sailors for hundreds of years afterwards & for basicallt the same reasons.
So if Muslims had allowed the European traders to cut through their middle eastern routes..maybe the history of Europe & America would be utterly different ...
bush and his fundamentalist right wingers in the republican party have decided to answer the terrible events of 9.11 with a cascading series of non-effective answers.
bush, in the early days after 9.11 let slip a phrase: "we will start a crusade." his advisers and people in the department of state had him (his spokesman) retract this phase.
yet it is telling.
it is much more than fighting terrorism. it is not just bin laden. it is not just palestine.
it is, indeed a clash of civilizations. and in its lowest, ugliest common denominator, it is a clash of religions.
it is billy grahm's son calling islam evil. it is robertson calling islam evil. it is mandatory prayer breakfasts in the white house.
it is arrogance that is bred by one country becoming the lone super power.
bush has destroyed NATO.
i hope american can build bombs as fast as it can. it will need them to fight off the entire world that is rallying against it.
the answers that bush and his cronies provide are detroying what it means to be a usamerican. there is no freedom. it is being taken away.
But the fact that Osama Bin Laden produced video tapes of his fundamentalists running from room to room in mock street fighting scenes, while shoting at cardboard cut-outs with huge white crosses painted on them, seems to have completely skipped your attention.
( White crosses were the standard war symbol ) of the Crusaders back in 1100AD..Middle East.. This is very relevant to your arguement, because Osama, has modelled himself as a latterday Saladin..ready to defend the faith..against the Crusaders.
Bush has gone to great pains to avoid describing this as a war against Islam..& for good reason..The only trouble is, that the other side is more than happy to describe it as a war against Islam..
So really, if you want to be pissed with anyone, it should be Osama..not America...or Bush..for despite their many warts, they are the lesser of two evils...
But hey, if you fancy your chances, why dont you go and bat for Osama..just go right ahead..I am sure the Japanese police will be only to happy to help you see right from wrong....\
Comments
[B]While stressing my utmost contempt for all forms religious extremism, putting all of them on an equal footing would be disregarding these facts:
In the ?fundamentalist Christian? USA you can have an abortion (though with more risk of violent harm to yourself than in say, Finland)[i] [QUOTE]
It's always made me uncomfortable. Particularly as both sides of the argument profess to be caring & concerned, and both act with such righteous indignation..before reaching for their guns...
Christianity has certainly much to be ashamed of, particularly with regards to the treatment of Jews...
Hardly believe they all call Yahwah/God/Allah the one & the same supreme being in whom their all three faith rests.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
While stressing my utmost contempt for all forms religious extremism, putting all of them on an equal footing would be disregarding these facts:
In the ?fundamentalist Christian? USA you can have an abortion (though with more risk of violent harm to yourself than in say, Finland;
in ?moderate Muslim? Egypt you can have your little daughter's clitoris removed with even less risk to yourself.
Originally posted by aquafire
It's always made me uncomfortable. Particularly as both sides of the argument profess to be caring & concerned, and both act with such righteous indignation..before reaching for their guns...
In case I wasn't clear, I wanted to stress that the most fundamnetalists in the West still fall short of many seen as ?moderates? elsewhere.
On the other hand, the fact of present-day Islam's being far more intolerant than the other Abrahamic religions cannot be a worse indictement of Islam, given that the two others are more tolerant not by their own merit but by the merit of being restrained by modern, secular (partially or wholly) states and civil societies.
My opinion is that Islamic culture can and should go through a process of secularisation and modernisation, it certainly made a world of good to the West and to others who did.
Christianity has certainly much to be ashamed of, particularly with regards to the treatment of Jews...
Hardly believe they all call Yahwah/God/Allah the one & the same supreme being in whom their all three faith rests.
Any religion will do such shameful things if given the temporal power to do so.
As an aside, the Tetragrammaton (the letters I-H-V-H) is, according to Jewish belief, is the secret Name of said omnipotent omniscient Eternal, its pronounciation is unknown (it's believed it was known to a select few in ancient times, and invloved minute precision in sound modulation and the like, when uttered), and thus forbiden according to those strictly observant of the commandments; Allah is not, itself, a name but simply the word ?God? in Arabic.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
On the other hand, the fact of present-day Islam's being far more intolerant than the other Abrahamic religions cannot be a worse indictement of Islam, given that the two others are more tolerant not by their own merit but by the merit of being restrained by modern, secular (partially or wholly) states and civil societies.
My opinion is that Islamic culture can and should go through a process of secularisation and modernisation, it certainly made a world of good to the West and to others who did.
Any religion will do such shameful things if given the temporal power to do so.
I could not agree more. Dispite some members claimed in an old thread, Islam is not inherently evil, but need to enter in a process of modernisation and secularisation. This process will allow the islamic world to be more in phasis with the modern tech world, but will still allow her to keep some important cultural values wich are her signature.
It makes me think what the world would have been like if Imperial China had followed through with a colonial policy (they thought about it briefly and sent expeditions) a few hundred years before Europe instead of saying it's not worth our time, (they were too busy fighting the Japanese, the ornery bastards they can be).
Your kind of almost right, but your putting the cart before the horse, if I may use such an old analogy.
In what might seem the greatest irony of history, it was the Islamic / muslim embargo on European merchants using middle eastern trade ports and over-land routes to access the goods of India & China, that motivated Europeans to look outwards.
Columbus went to Queen Isabella of Spain with the then wierd notion that the world was round. & if that was the case, then Europeans traders might be able to circumnavigate the Islamic / muslim trade monopoly / embargo, by travelling not East to West...but over the Atlantic going West to East...
.
The fact that Columbus bumped into uncharted territory, discovered the new world & brought untold wealth to Spain ,actually meant little to him, because until his dying day he considered himself a failure at the one true task he had set himself..& that was to open up a trade route to China & India.
In parallel, the pursuit of the fabled North-West passage to Asia & the pacific continued to haunt European merchants & sailors for hundreds of years afterwards & for basicallt the same reasons.
So if Muslims had allowed the European traders to cut through their middle eastern routes..maybe the history of Europe & America would be utterly different ...
bush, in the early days after 9.11 let slip a phrase: "we will start a crusade." his advisers and people in the department of state had him (his spokesman) retract this phase.
yet it is telling.
it is much more than fighting terrorism. it is not just bin laden. it is not just palestine.
it is, indeed a clash of civilizations. and in its lowest, ugliest common denominator, it is a clash of religions.
it is billy grahm's son calling islam evil. it is robertson calling islam evil. it is mandatory prayer breakfasts in the white house.
it is arrogance that is bred by one country becoming the lone super power.
bush has destroyed NATO.
i hope american can build bombs as fast as it can. it will need them to fight off the entire world that is rallying against it.
the answers that bush and his cronies provide are detroying what it means to be a usamerican. there is no freedom. it is being taken away.
bid laden didnt do this.
bush did.
what a difference a hanging chad makes.
But the fact that Osama Bin Laden produced video tapes of his fundamentalists running from room to room in mock street fighting scenes, while shoting at cardboard cut-outs with huge white crosses painted on them, seems to have completely skipped your attention.
( White crosses were the standard war symbol ) of the Crusaders back in 1100AD..Middle East.. This is very relevant to your arguement, because Osama, has modelled himself as a latterday Saladin..ready to defend the faith..against the Crusaders.
Bush has gone to great pains to avoid describing this as a war against Islam..& for good reason..The only trouble is, that the other side is more than happy to describe it as a war against Islam..
So really, if you want to be pissed with anyone, it should be Osama..not America...or Bush..for despite their many warts, they are the lesser of two evils...
But hey, if you fancy your chances, why dont you go and bat for Osama..just go right ahead..I am sure the Japanese police will be only to happy to help you see right from wrong....