The future of the powermacs before the PPC 970
According to many people the PPC 970 won't be release before july 2003 or worse Q1 2004 (ars technica).
What is the plan of Apple to not increase the gap between the PC and the Mac during this laps of time ?
Just some improvements in term of clockspeed of the G4 ?
a new and last version of the G4 with DDR memory support and SOI 0,13 (perhaps a 512 K cache, like the one who was scheduled in the initial Appolo project, but who did not appear due to the downgrade from SOI 0,13 to SOI 0,18) ? if yes, why Mot should make this last R&D investissement : for Apple or for the embedded market ?
Personaly this questions are important, i have to replace my mac (G3 333) at my office (cannot upgrade it to mac os 9 without reformmating my HD, and therefore cannot use photoshop 7) and i will wait until the PPC 970 is released except if i see some a good new product at a lower prize in first quarter 2003.
[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: Powerdoc ]</p>
What is the plan of Apple to not increase the gap between the PC and the Mac during this laps of time ?
Just some improvements in term of clockspeed of the G4 ?
a new and last version of the G4 with DDR memory support and SOI 0,13 (perhaps a 512 K cache, like the one who was scheduled in the initial Appolo project, but who did not appear due to the downgrade from SOI 0,13 to SOI 0,18) ? if yes, why Mot should make this last R&D investissement : for Apple or for the embedded market ?
Personaly this questions are important, i have to replace my mac (G3 333) at my office (cannot upgrade it to mac os 9 without reformmating my HD, and therefore cannot use photoshop 7) and i will wait until the PPC 970 is released except if i see some a good new product at a lower prize in first quarter 2003.
[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: Powerdoc ]</p>
Comments
Yep, I suspect so.
There are rumblings that Motorola actually got off their hiney and actually improved some elements to the G4...but for me, I've been burned too many times to give them any credence.
On the upside, all the gossipy rumors say we get the PPC970 in 2003. Maybe December 31st, 2003...but not in 2004, barring difficulties.
What is the plan of Apple to not increase the gap between the PC and the Mac during this intercourse ?
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Being an engineer, it goes without saying that I must have poor vocabulary, but I think with respect to Motorola's relationship to Apple, a more proper term would be sodomy and not intercourse, because of where Apple is taking it.
<strong>
Being an engineer, it goes without saying that I must have poor vocabulary, but I think with respect to Motorola's relationship to Apple, a more proper term would be sodomy and not intercourse, because of where Apple is taking it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> perhaps did i make this mistake by purpose
Lemon Bon Bon <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I'm an optimist, so let's say .1 micron RapidIO-ready G4s sometime this spring. The worst case doesn't appear to be too bad, since the 7455 already appears to be able to reach 1.5GHz on the current process. That's not stellar, but it's something.
<strong>I'm betting on a move to RapidIO and a die shrink. Mot seems to hope that this move will happen this winter. Steve will probably nuke Mot headquarters from orbit if it doesn't.
I'm an optimist, so let's say .1 micron RapidIO-ready G4s sometime this spring. The worst case doesn't appear to be too bad, since the 7455 already appears to be able to reach 1.5GHz on the current process. That's not stellar, but it's something.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If this doesn't happen (spring and really mid-winter for an Apple promo in Jan Feb would be better) then the clock will have run out for MOT... If the 970 is on the track to a speedy intro (6-9 months) Apple will have a HUGE problem otherwise.
(this all assumes the G4++ or whatever isn't gonna be able to use the same mobo design as the 970 if it does then things wont be SO bad)
But think about it... Apple will want (need) to move to the 970's as soon as they can. Can Apple really come out with brand new G4++ boxes in the Spring and then in the fall jump to the 970 and push the G4++ into the iMac line? I guess they could but 6 months between MAJOR motherboard changing designs is gonna kill Apples bottom line. They'd never make up the R&D they spent on the G4++ MB in such a short time.
Dave
[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
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But think about it... Apple will want (need) to move to the 970's as soon as they can. Can Apple really come out with brand new G4++ boxes in the Spring and then in the fall jump to the 970 and push the G4++ into the iMac line? I guess they could but 6 months between MAJOR motherboard changing designs is gonna kill Apples bottom line. They'd never make up the R&D they spent on the G4++ MB in such a short time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a very good question.
I am exceeding my expertise as a hardware engineer here (heh, who am I kidding?), but it seems to me that Apple could roll out a sort of midway architecture, where the G4 connected directly to a RapidIO-based motherboard, and the GPUL connected to the same board via a GX-to-RapidIO companion chip on the daughtercard. If possible (and I think it's quite possible, given that IBM is keen on RapidIO as well), it means that Apple has a high-bandwidth, scalable board that can accomodate both G4s (which will now be liberated from one of their most pressing performance bottlenecks) and GPULs, and which is robust enough to last Apple for at least a couple of years. RapidIO is inexpensive, and it scales well.
If the G4 really does jump down to .1 micron, it will become suitable for iBooks, so that takes care of any need to support the G3 and its antique, inefficient 60x bus. A jump down to .1 micron is not out of the question: Apparently the issues involving migration to .13 and .1 are essentially the same, Mot has no trouble with process technology in a lab setting - it's production that kills them - and they'll have access to a .1 micron fab late this fall, which neatly cuts out any dependence on their dirty fabs to manufacture their high-end part.
I can see this happening. In all fairness, I can see it not happening, too, but hope springs eternal.
[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>
MAJOR motherboard changing designs is gonna kill Apples bottom line. They'd never make up the R&D they spent on the G4++ MB in such a short time.
Dave
[ 10-17-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that there is a possibility that the current motherboard is ready for new G4 : the chipset support DDR already, at the difference of the G4. We knows that the chipset deals with the G4 via the MPX protocol, but perhaps this chipset is already to able to communicate with the chip via others protocols.
If this chip come it will in the beginning of 2003, to make up shut ut rumors about the the use of the PPC 970. If Apple does not introduce a new design (event if it is a loss of R&D) they will be in big trouble (and i think that everybody seems to agree with the last point).
<strong>
This is a very good question.
I am exceeding my expertise as a hardware engineer here (heh, who am I kidding?), but it seems to me that Apple could roll out a sort of midway architecture, where the G4 connected directly to a RapidIO-based motherboard, and the GPUL connected to the same board via a GX-to-RapidIO companion chip on the daughtercard.
I can see this happening. In all fairness, I can see it not happening, too, but hope springs eternal.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm, this is an interesting thought. Kind of like a "Yikes" in reverse... this time it's a new MB with the old processor.
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Hmmm, this is an interesting thought. Kind of like a "Yikes" in reverse... this time it's a new MB with the old processor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is already the case of the current mobo of the powermacs : a new mobo with two old chips.
I also believe that the 970 will be used by Apple, and the new Powermacs (probably in February) will be the last G4 PowerMacs and might have to last until November ( most likly the earliest the 970 will appear)
<strong>I said before the latest Powermacs were introduced that while there were some very reliable reports of G4 running over 1.5 Ghz. you would not see them because apple will be using these chips in early 2003 (February) and that these may be the last G4 Apple may get from Moto (meaning the fastest chip they will get, since Moto will not put any more $$ into R&D to increase speed of G4 & G5 Died in 2001. This may change if Moto sells there semiconductor business)
I also believe that the 970 will be used by Apple, and the new Powermacs (probably in February) will be the last G4 PowerMacs and might have to last until November ( most likly the earliest the 970 will appear)</strong><hr></blockquote>
ok then who will buy those 1.5ghz G4? is 33% of potential buyers TODAY don't buy the 1.25Ghz??? that'll be a hard time for apple to stay in professional workstation business won't it? ... hmmm ... strange - but we'll see
<strong>I said before the latest Powermacs were introduced that while there were some very reliable reports of G4 running over 1.5 Ghz. you would not see them because apple will be using these chips in early 2003 (February) and that these may be the last G4 Apple may get from Moto (meaning the fastest chip they will get, since Moto will not put any more $$ into R&D to increase speed of G4 & G5 Died in 2001. This may change if Moto sells there semiconductor business)
I also believe that the 970 will be used by Apple, and the new Powermacs (probably in February) will be the last G4 PowerMacs and might have to last until November ( most likly the earliest the 970 will appear)</strong><hr></blockquote>
As an investor I hope that your time frame is a worst case scenario...Apple needs to push up their upgrade cycle, and get new computers out ASAP if they are going to get their sales up. The iMac hasnt seen a speed bump since last winter...the G4 introduced in the summer was within the realm of lowered expectations. The iBook/Powerbook are due for revisions...and so is the Xserve. We probably wont see them this year, which will continue to hurt Apples bottom line.
<strong>I said before the latest Powermacs were introduced that while there were some very reliable reports of G4 running over 1.5 Ghz. you would not see them because apple will be using these chips in early 2003 (February) and that these may be the last G4 Apple may get from Moto (meaning the fastest chip they will get, since Moto will not put any more $$ into R&D to increase speed of G4 & G5 Died in 2001. This may change if Moto sells there semiconductor business)
I also believe that the 970 will be used by Apple, and the new Powermacs (probably in February) will be the last G4 PowerMacs and might have to last until November ( most likly the earliest the 970 will appear)</strong><hr></blockquote>
That means 1.5 will be the highest Apple will have for nine f*cking months? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Apple will be in deep sh!t if this is true
<strong>
ok then who will buy those 1.5ghz G4? is 33% of potential buyers TODAY don't buy the 1.25Ghz??? that'll be a hard time for apple to stay in professional workstation business won't it? ... hmmm ... strange - but we'll see</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but the last G4 by Moto will have a redesigned mobo with faster FSB and DDR. So it will be more appealing because it will be faster then the current models and more reason to upgrade. The last batch was truly a stop gap release and not much gain in actual speed.
<strong>
That means 1.5 will be the highest Apple will have for nine f*cking months? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Apple will be in deep sh!t if this is true</strong><hr></blockquote>
6 months. The Moto g4 should ship Feb-March and we should get the 970 in Aug-Sept.
[ 10-18-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</p>
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Yes, but the last G4 by Moto will have a redesigned mobo with faster FSB and DDR. So it will be more appealing because it will be faster then the current models and more reason to upgrade. The last batch was truly a stop gap release and not much gain in actual speed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
if you look at the thread <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002550&p=1"; target="_blank">here</a> you'll see that the next G4-class processor of motorola which will be available at the beginning of 2003 will be up to 1.8Ghz BUT still have NO DDR and probably not even a faster FSB... wow - what a joke -> a dual 1.8Ghz G4 with 167mhz single data rate front side bus ....
edit: to be clearer look <a href="http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDF2002RECAP_Q1228.pdf"; target="_blank">here</a> for the related pdf from motorola and search for the 7457 ...
not that the G4 is a bad chip but the bus-speed (transfer rate) is....
[ 10-19-2002: Message edited by: Krassy ]</p>
<strong>
not that the G4 is a bad chip but the bus-speed (transfer rate) is....
[ 10-19-2002: Message edited by: Krassy ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, you are completely right
You have got only to look at MIPS per MHz rate:
MPC7455: 2.3MIPS/ MHz
PPC970: 2.9MIPS/ MHz
Not bad for such a old chip
And don't forget, the G4 has only a 166MHz FSB vs. 900MHz :eek:
I don't hold my breath on the new IBM chip