Pointing out the truth makes me a racist. Things like, "A significant number of arab muslims want the jews dead and Israel wiped off of everyones map"
But how do you go from "a significant number" to "The paletinians"? A significant number of americans are locked up but that doesn´t make USA a big jail does it?
What absolutely SLAYS me is that GWB is over there right now--probably closer to a working solution than the First Pimp ever got, and NPR is reporting the..
GASP
gambling scandal at the Univ. of Washington as third-lead story.
If Clinton had gotten this close they would have played this like the second coming of Gandhi.
What absolutely SLAYS me is that GWB is over there right now--probably closer to a working solution than the First Pimp ever got, and NPR is reporting the..
GASP
gambling scandal at the Univ. of Washington. as third lead story.
If Clinton had gotten this close they would have played this like the second coming of Gandhi.
That stooopit
its getting plenty of news and even people like myself are saying that its a great thing that Bush is doing . . . if it works it will make me rethink the whole Iraq thing, i mean, the whole they lied in order to invade thing, and just accept that we can't trust them, but, at least maybe their ideas aren't as bad as I feared (their hidden from public ideas that they lie about) . . . if it works
after all, it seems that it happened very soon after the invasion and somehow feels like it is somehow a response . . .
If Sharon cleans out the racist arsehole settlements and the Palestinians stop the racist arsehole hatred and bombing and Bush is guiding it then I will admit that it is a great act on his part *swallow* yeeesh *cringe* gasp
I am not a fan of GWBush, as some of you may know from my posts and I do not think that this peace plan is workable. However, its unworkability is not his fault. I do not think that he is in a position to suggest a plan other than what is on the table now (and what has, in fact, also been developed and/or endorsed by many others, regardless of where they are on the political spectrum relative to Bush). I give Bush full credit for trying on this issue (although it will not make me change my mind about him on other particular issues).
I hope, however, that there eventually will be someone at senior levels who tries to suggest ideas to go beyond the current peace plan. It probably cannot be the Americans, because I think that a solution such as what I have suggested earlier in this thread would be viewed suspiciously coming from them. It would probably have to come from a country that is viewed as having no particular 'axe to grind' in the Middle East.
What absolutely SLAYS me is that GWB is over there right now--probably closer to a working solution than the First Pimp ever got, and NPR is reporting the..
GASP
gambling scandal at the Univ. of Washington as third-lead story.
If Clinton had gotten this close they would have played this like the second coming of Gandhi.
This is true. Bush is going to end up getting credit for ending the crisis. I've been saying that for awhile. I don't think the medis is ignoring it, but it doesn't seem as prominent as when Clinton did it.
i had a roommate in college when I was in boston... he slept in a single attached to my double my freshman year. He was from the UAE, and was loaded... at 18 he had a brand new MB E class, to go to/from class... [more power to him, lucky kid...] - the significance of which is simply that he was from a privileged background. One day we had a discussion about the middle east (limited to how life was in the UAE), and he said that if he, or ANY arab had a nuclear weapon, there would be no Israel. He continued on about his dislike for Israeli's and Jews, describing how jews are, and what they do (all negative) - at which point my other roommate piped up and informed him that he was jewish (i am too, but my roommate said it first)... his response was: "really?!?! [pause] your the first jew I have ever met."
It is this hatred that will doom the peace process. Jews/Israeli's made peace with: egypt, jordan... their allies in the middle east is turkey (a muslim country)... All peace that has been made hinges solely on the fact that no neighbor can defeat Israel in a war. If Israel could be defeated - it would be defeated. Any peace between Israel and its neighboring countries is insured because Israel has the military upper hand, and has the ability to dictate that peace is what is desired.
This doesn't work with the palestinians because they have no country to loose. The palestinian leadership has nothing to worry about in conflict with Israel because it is not their necks on the line. Arafat can wage a terror war with impunity because he knows that israel will never send a missile at him, and he cares not for the 18 year old lives he sends off to martyrdom (and welcomes the Israeli deaths he causes). Palestine or no Palestine - With no personal risk associated with continued terror, the current Palestinians leadership has little motivation to stop terror attacks in israel. If they had a nuke, there'd be no Israel.
The ultimate resolution of this conflict will be one of two things:
* Israel will at some distant date be defeated (not likely in the near term)
* the palestinians will have their own country, and the leadership will fear the loss of it.
I think the only lasting solution would be for Jordan (the other 78% of british mandate palestine, and hence - the rightful owner of the land palestinians claim is occupied) to absorb the palestinian territories, new borders be negotiated along the lines the roadmap has laid out, and the two countries living side by side would be Israel, and Jordan.
This would insure a lasting peace between the two countries until the day comes (in the very distant future) that indeed Israel is defeat-able by a neighboring country. At which point - which I am convinced will come some day - Israel will cease to exist.
I think the only lasting solution would be for Jordan (the other 78% of british mandate palestine, and hence - the rightful owner of the land palestinians claim is occupied) to absorb the palestinian territories, new borders be negotiated along the lines the roadmap has laid out, and the two countries living side by side would be Israel, and Jordan.
Hmm. I am aiming a bit higher. A palestine lead by elected leaders that prosper because of large amount of trade with ALL neighbouring countries would be that beacon of democracy that can inspire the population in other arab countries. Kind of like some wanted in Iraq but this time done right.
This doesn't work with the palestinians because they have no country to loose. The palestinian leadership has nothing to worry about in conflict with Israel because it is not their necks on the line. Arafat can wage a terror war with impunity because he knows that israel will never send a missile at him, and he cares not for the 18 year old lives he sends off to martyrdom (and welcomes the Israeli deaths he causes). Palestine or no Palestine - With no personal risk associated with continued terror, the current Palestinians leadership has little motivation to stop terror attacks in israel. If they had a nuke, there'd be no Israel.
The notion that the palestinian leadership has no regard for palestinian lives is one of those historical lies that have been told so many times people start to think they are true. See my post on the death-toll in the other thread.
Quote:
I think the only lasting solution would be for Jordan (the other 78% of british mandate palestine, and hence - the rightful owner of the land palestinians claim is occupied) to absorb the palestinian territories, new borders be negotiated along the lines the roadmap has laid out, and the two countries living side by side would be Israel, and Jordan.
This is another historical lie. The British administration clearly distinguished between the two areas during their adminstration. You might as well say Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Kuwait should join.
Quote:
This would insure a lasting peace between the two countries until the day comes (in the very distant future) that indeed Israel is defeat-able by a neighboring country. At which point - which I am convinced will come some day - Israel will cease to exist.
A union of the smaller states in the area would asure that this never happen.
Sorry to be so slow to respond and I know that this thread has mostly died. I just wanted to add that I found that Grad Student's post one of the most depressing I have recently seen.
I agree with much of what he said, but I am not so pessimistic. I feel that Israel will not disappear if the concept of Israel changes. It must be recognized as a Jewish (and Palestinian) homeland, not as a Jewish state. In fact, this status is what modern Israel actually is and what it has been since its inception. Much of the problem is the failure of both sides, however, to recognize this reality.
Unfortunately, Chinney, Israel is not the problem. They have said they are willing for move toward two states. The problem is the significant number of arab muslims that refuse to give up jihad against the jews to eliminate Israel from the world. Solve that problem and you'll have a solution in 5 years. Outside of that there is no chance.
Unfortunately, Chinney, Israel is not the problem. They have said they are willing for move toward two states. The problem is the significant number of arab muslims that refuse to give up jihad against the jews to eliminate Israel from the world. Solve that problem and you'll have a solution in 5 years. Outside of that there is no chance.
I agree that Israel is not the problem - but the concept of a Jewish state is. I think that if you change this concept to one of a Jewish and Palestinian homeland, this could be an important step toward long-term peace.
I know that the attitudes of many Muslim Arabs in the Middle East toward Jews also will have to change. But so too will the attitude of many Jewish Israelis toward Arabs. I have been told, for instance, by otherwise nice, bright and reasonable Jews (when visiting Israel and here in Canada) that they do not consider Arabs to be fully human. I know that endless conflict can lead to the development of such opinions, but it is unacceptable just the same.
I agree that Israel is not the problem - but the concept of a Jewish state is.
But the concept of a Japanese state, a Chinese state, a Greek state, a Russian state, a Thai state, a French state, a Polish state, a German state, a Swedish state, not to mention, tewntysomething Arab states, that does not seem much of a problem for you.
Isn't it funny that of all the nation-states, the dynastic estates, the prison-states, and the contract states* around, only one state has to have its existence questioned, denied, or attacked?
Quote:
I think that if you change this concept to one of a Jewish and Palestinian homeland, this could be an important step toward long-term peace.
That'd be a decisive step toward a full blown civil-war, since neither Jews nor Palestinians want that ?shotgun wedding?.
After long time of having tried the option of an a-territorial, powerless, stateless, enlightened civilisation, Jews are now armed and dangerous, not because they like it (despite all the rumors to the contrary you might have heard) but because all other folks are.
So, better get used to it.
*States existing due to no particular ethnic or cultural reality, but rather to political treaties, constitutions, and other contracts: USA, Canada, Australia, Belgium, New Zealand, Switzerland, Austria, etc?
Comments
Originally posted by Scott
Pointing out the truth makes me a racist. Things like, "A significant number of arab muslims want the jews dead and Israel wiped off of everyones map"
But how do you go from "a significant number" to "The paletinians"? A significant number of americans are locked up but that doesn´t make USA a big jail does it?
Originally posted by Anders the White
A significant number of americans are locked up but that doesn´t make USA a big jail does it?
If we shift your analogy back to the Palestinians, then the answer to a racist would be a resounding yes.
GASP
gambling scandal at the Univ. of Washington as third-lead story.
If Clinton had gotten this close they would have played this like the second coming of Gandhi.
Originally posted by ena
What absolutely SLAYS me is that GWB is over there right now--probably closer to a working solution than the First Pimp ever got, and NPR is reporting the..
GASP
gambling scandal at the Univ. of Washington. as third lead story.
If Clinton had gotten this close they would have played this like the second coming of Gandhi.
That stooopit
its getting plenty of news and even people like myself are saying that its a great thing that Bush is doing . . . if it works it will make me rethink the whole Iraq thing, i mean, the whole they lied in order to invade thing, and just accept that we can't trust them, but, at least maybe their ideas aren't as bad as I feared (their hidden from public ideas that they lie about) . . . if it works
after all, it seems that it happened very soon after the invasion and somehow feels like it is somehow a response . . .
If Sharon cleans out the racist arsehole settlements and the Palestinians stop the racist arsehole hatred and bombing and Bush is guiding it then I will admit that it is a great act on his part *swallow* yeeesh *cringe* gasp
I hope, however, that there eventually will be someone at senior levels who tries to suggest ideas to go beyond the current peace plan. It probably cannot be the Americans, because I think that a solution such as what I have suggested earlier in this thread would be viewed suspiciously coming from them. It would probably have to come from a country that is viewed as having no particular 'axe to grind' in the Middle East.
Well poor Mazen's effort didn't last long. But the real question is how can we blame this on Israel and Bush?
Hamas breaks off talks with Abu Mazen
Originally posted by Scott
I wake up to NPR and it didn't occure to me that they were ignoring this story. But they are.
Well poor Mazen's effort didn't last long. But the real question is how can we blame this on Israel and Bush?
Hamas breaks off talks with Abu Mazen
It's not the first time they've made the offer. Last time it was Sharon that sunk it.
Ariel Sharon, by the way, is a mad racist bastard.
Originally posted by ena
What absolutely SLAYS me is that GWB is over there right now--probably closer to a working solution than the First Pimp ever got, and NPR is reporting the..
GASP
gambling scandal at the Univ. of Washington as third-lead story.
If Clinton had gotten this close they would have played this like the second coming of Gandhi.
This is true. Bush is going to end up getting credit for ending the crisis. I've been saying that for awhile. I don't think the medis is ignoring it, but it doesn't seem as prominent as when Clinton did it.
This carnage must not continue. Maybe it is time for some different ideas on peace in Israel/Palestine. See my first post in this thread.
It is this hatred that will doom the peace process. Jews/Israeli's made peace with: egypt, jordan... their allies in the middle east is turkey (a muslim country)... All peace that has been made hinges solely on the fact that no neighbor can defeat Israel in a war. If Israel could be defeated - it would be defeated. Any peace between Israel and its neighboring countries is insured because Israel has the military upper hand, and has the ability to dictate that peace is what is desired.
This doesn't work with the palestinians because they have no country to loose. The palestinian leadership has nothing to worry about in conflict with Israel because it is not their necks on the line. Arafat can wage a terror war with impunity because he knows that israel will never send a missile at him, and he cares not for the 18 year old lives he sends off to martyrdom (and welcomes the Israeli deaths he causes). Palestine or no Palestine - With no personal risk associated with continued terror, the current Palestinians leadership has little motivation to stop terror attacks in israel. If they had a nuke, there'd be no Israel.
The ultimate resolution of this conflict will be one of two things:
* Israel will at some distant date be defeated (not likely in the near term)
* the palestinians will have their own country, and the leadership will fear the loss of it.
I think the only lasting solution would be for Jordan (the other 78% of british mandate palestine, and hence - the rightful owner of the land palestinians claim is occupied) to absorb the palestinian territories, new borders be negotiated along the lines the roadmap has laid out, and the two countries living side by side would be Israel, and Jordan.
This would insure a lasting peace between the two countries until the day comes (in the very distant future) that indeed Israel is defeat-able by a neighboring country. At which point - which I am convinced will come some day - Israel will cease to exist.
Originally posted by grad student
I think the only lasting solution would be for Jordan (the other 78% of british mandate palestine, and hence - the rightful owner of the land palestinians claim is occupied) to absorb the palestinian territories, new borders be negotiated along the lines the roadmap has laid out, and the two countries living side by side would be Israel, and Jordan.
Hmm. I am aiming a bit higher. A palestine lead by elected leaders that prosper because of large amount of trade with ALL neighbouring countries would be that beacon of democracy that can inspire the population in other arab countries. Kind of like some wanted in Iraq but this time done right.
Originally posted by grad student
This doesn't work with the palestinians because they have no country to loose. The palestinian leadership has nothing to worry about in conflict with Israel because it is not their necks on the line. Arafat can wage a terror war with impunity because he knows that israel will never send a missile at him, and he cares not for the 18 year old lives he sends off to martyrdom (and welcomes the Israeli deaths he causes). Palestine or no Palestine - With no personal risk associated with continued terror, the current Palestinians leadership has little motivation to stop terror attacks in israel. If they had a nuke, there'd be no Israel.
The notion that the palestinian leadership has no regard for palestinian lives is one of those historical lies that have been told so many times people start to think they are true. See my post on the death-toll in the other thread.
I think the only lasting solution would be for Jordan (the other 78% of british mandate palestine, and hence - the rightful owner of the land palestinians claim is occupied) to absorb the palestinian territories, new borders be negotiated along the lines the roadmap has laid out, and the two countries living side by side would be Israel, and Jordan.
This is another historical lie. The British administration clearly distinguished between the two areas during their adminstration. You might as well say Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Kuwait should join.
This would insure a lasting peace between the two countries until the day comes (in the very distant future) that indeed Israel is defeat-able by a neighboring country. At which point - which I am convinced will come some day - Israel will cease to exist.
A union of the smaller states in the area would asure that this never happen.
I agree with much of what he said, but I am not so pessimistic. I feel that Israel will not disappear if the concept of Israel changes. It must be recognized as a Jewish (and Palestinian) homeland, not as a Jewish state. In fact, this status is what modern Israel actually is and what it has been since its inception. Much of the problem is the failure of both sides, however, to recognize this reality.
Originally posted by Scott
Unfortunately, Chinney, Israel is not the problem. They have said they are willing for move toward two states. The problem is the significant number of arab muslims that refuse to give up jihad against the jews to eliminate Israel from the world. Solve that problem and you'll have a solution in 5 years. Outside of that there is no chance.
I agree that Israel is not the problem - but the concept of a Jewish state is. I think that if you change this concept to one of a Jewish and Palestinian homeland, this could be an important step toward long-term peace.
I know that the attitudes of many Muslim Arabs in the Middle East toward Jews also will have to change. But so too will the attitude of many Jewish Israelis toward Arabs. I have been told, for instance, by otherwise nice, bright and reasonable Jews (when visiting Israel and here in Canada) that they do not consider Arabs to be fully human. I know that endless conflict can lead to the development of such opinions, but it is unacceptable just the same.
Tell ya what. Market you new concept of Israel to the arab muslims and let me know how it goes.
Originally posted by Scott
Unfortunately, Chinney, Israel is not the problem.
Sharon is most definitely an obstacle towards peace.
Originally posted by Scott
Tell ya what. Market you new concept of Israel to the arab muslims and let me know how it goes.
The arab states have already made this offer, even though you chose to ignore it.
Originally posted by Chinney
I agree that Israel is not the problem - but the concept of a Jewish state is.
But the concept of a Japanese state, a Chinese state, a Greek state, a Russian state, a Thai state, a French state, a Polish state, a German state, a Swedish state, not to mention, tewntysomething Arab states, that does not seem much of a problem for you.
Isn't it funny that of all the nation-states, the dynastic estates, the prison-states, and the contract states* around, only one state has to have its existence questioned, denied, or attacked?
I think that if you change this concept to one of a Jewish and Palestinian homeland, this could be an important step toward long-term peace.
That'd be a decisive step toward a full blown civil-war, since neither Jews nor Palestinians want that ?shotgun wedding?.
After long time of having tried the option of an a-territorial, powerless, stateless, enlightened civilisation, Jews are now armed and dangerous, not because they like it (despite all the rumors to the contrary you might have heard) but because all other folks are.
So, better get used to it.
*States existing due to no particular ethnic or cultural reality, but rather to political treaties, constitutions, and other contracts: USA, Canada, Australia, Belgium, New Zealand, Switzerland, Austria, etc?
Originally posted by New
The arab states have already made this offer, even though you chose to ignore it.
New you and I both know how far the most recent New York Times-Saudi Arabia peace plan got among the other arab nations.