the first problem is your inherent idea about religion.
Once one assumes that God is "good" or "male" then you're locked into certain ways of thinking.
In my religion we believe that there are only two things about a persons life that are predetermined their birth and their death. We believe that everything between those two times can be known. One of the central characters in our religion is Elegba.
Elegba: represents the crossroads or the ever present choices in life. Thus the possibilities for humans are predetermined, yet the actual path that one takes is determined by the choices you make.
Afro Cuban, African, Brazilian, or American vooduon?
Taking this from a purely non-religious view because I dont understand religion either, it seems to me that anyone who chooses to believe in a big boogeyman is either somewhat insane or childish neither of which are necessarily bad mind you.
Free will may well exist, but lets say some future event directly influences an event in the distant or not so distant past. Like a time traveler. Ok, perhaps this is a bit of a childish thought. But the traveler can only affect the universe in the manner in which they have if all of the events that led up to the traveler occur exactly as they have. If they do not then the traveler either doesnt go into the past and the universe is forked at a "time-point" or the traveler goes into the past and there is a different set of event which leads to another fork. If there is any event which directly cycles the later universe to some earlier time point, then all events within that cycle, every single one produces a fork. This connection can never be proven, it is simply a thought experiment. Now, lets take the next step. The universe you live in (the events that lead up to the point at which you are reading this) is the one in which you live. Any difference in events prior to this (and if there is a cycle of any sort, after this) have occured exactly as the occured. And yet they also occured differently, but not in this universe. This is sort of the concept of the multiverse, where all events that can occur within given xyz parameters have occured and have produced a progeny of related but not exactly the same universes and the observer sits in only one of these.
Free will occurs. But if universe is cyclic (in time) then everything that you do has already occured and will occur exactly as it has (sort of)...
One more step, get rid of any conception of the cycle. Throw in an all knowing creator who sees all events that will occur in the universe, that this somehow constitutes a plan and badabing you have got derived Judeo-Christian beliefs...
No, you're just sending me to your website where I can find god when I asked you specifically if a master plan and free will can exist.
Like I said,
If you had taken the time to read some of those contents smart arse you would have noted that they specifically adress the original question you asked..
But what's the point of asking a question when you already think you know the answer better than everyone else..?
Sounds more like your saying..
Look at me Look at me..I have the answer.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
Deaf-Dumb & Blind......Sure proof of you arrogance..
In short: No God (except from Powerdoc maybe) and no master plan. Free will? Of course. My "willy" at least seem to have free will . Not that any of this really matters though.
If you had taken the time to read some of those contents smart arse you would have noted that they specifically adress the original question you asked..
And the answer is in my conversion to your wacky religion. Right. No thanks.
Quote:
But what's the point of asking a question when you already think you know the answer better than everyone else..?
Excuse me? You obviously don't pay attention to my posts. I'm PROUD that I don't have all the answers. I EMBRACE the unknown.
Quote:
Sounds more like your saying..
Look at me Look at me..I have the answer.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
Nope. Not at all.
Quote:
Deaf-Dumb & Blind......Sure proof of you arrogance..
Actually, we've strayed onto one of the very few topics that I can speak about with some authority. I'd just like to point out that it's worth distinguishing a few different issues:
a. The problem of evil
b. Free will versus divine foreknowledge
c. Free will versus determinism
a. and b. are not discussed much in non-theological circles. c. is still a biggie though -- I for one was delighted to see it play such a prominent role in the new Matrix flick.
P.S. The Matrix site has a surprisingly good philosophy section; see also a recent article in Salon about the philosophy in the Matrix.
I would imagine if mankind had put all the effort of killing each other into finding cures for diseases, things could be much better than they are now.
....but as it stands, we can't even be civil to each other on an internet fourm---I think we have a ways to go before we start pointing fingers at God.
Out of this whole topic, I got a bit of chuckle out of this statement (aside from the "Ifa" dialogue ). Not trying to exact offense to you personally, ena. I just thought it was an ironic statement. The part about "mankind had put all the effort of killing each other" in contradiction with "I think we have a ways to go before we start pointing fingers at God", whereas religion seems to end up a motivation behind lots of large-scale killing and brutality in the world (whether intentional or not, human misapplication or not). My hunch is that the world could excise out a lot of violence, misery, and killing if it could somehow get rid of religion, adapt an alternative, agnostic form of morality and ethics, and those who would devote their life to finding cures for diseases will naturally end up doing so anyway (which I think is the case already, IMO). That is, if you could eliminate the human compulsion to kill each other, I don't think that would suddenly reveal a vast population who would suddenly want to study medicine to cure the masses.
As my direct contribution to the actual topic, I would stick with the premise that notions of "free will" and "divine plan" are in conflict on a fundamental level (aside from clever twists of semantics to explain otherwise).
Like how nobody ever goes to the toilet in hollywood movies
Someone will start bootin' in doors and shootin' at the protagonist if they do. Anyway...
Quote:
John Milton did a pretty good job with this in De Doctrina Christiana.
A synopsis for those of use who have not read it would be useful: what side of the fence does Milton fall on wrt this topic and what are his arguments?
Quote:
Sounds more like your saying..
Look at me Look at me..I have the answer.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
No, BR is saying this:
Quote:
Look at me Look at me..I have no answers.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
Defining the multiverse as the set of parallel universes created by the results of choices/chaos, do we have free will if:
Everything possible happens in some part of the multiverse.
Not everything possible happnes: the multiverse is not complete with respect to what is possible.
Assuming a god outside of the universe, what if they were omnipresesnt in the multiverse?
I often hear two seemingly contradictory statements uttered by many religious folk these days. god has a plan and free will exists. When someone dies young in an accident, I often hear things along the lines of "well, god works in mysterious ways he has a plan best not question his will." Yet, at the same time this master plan exists there somehow is free will.
Answer me a couple things:
1) Explain how a master plan and free will can coexist.
2) If there exists a master plan, what is the point in praying for something? If it's in the plan then you'll get it so quit wasting your time.
Note to groverat: This thread is not flaimbait nor was the other one you locked. I'm sorry but religion just does not make a lick of sense to me and I'm trying to understand the point of view of (unfortunately) the majority of the people living in my country and around the world.
Ah, free will again -- you've pulled me back out of lurker mode.
1 ) You cannot logically have free will if there is a divine entity micromanaging the daily events of our world. The people who think there is a divine reason for every accident, and say that they have free will are being inconsistent.
2) Many people find the act of praying comforting, and it can have some of the same benefits as meditation.
Religion is in the realm of emotion, not logical thinking. It fills a need and is quite helpful to millions of people. The problems with religion arise when the adherents to a particular sect try to enforce their views on others, or attack science that does not agree with one of their beliefs.
Comments
Originally posted by Sondjata
the first problem is your inherent idea about religion.
Once one assumes that God is "good" or "male" then you're locked into certain ways of thinking.
In my religion we believe that there are only two things about a persons life that are predetermined their birth and their death. We believe that everything between those two times can be known. One of the central characters in our religion is Elegba.
Elegba: represents the crossroads or the ever present choices in life. Thus the possibilities for humans are predetermined, yet the actual path that one takes is determined by the choices you make.
Afro Cuban, African, Brazilian, or American vooduon?
Free will may well exist, but lets say some future event directly influences an event in the distant or not so distant past. Like a time traveler. Ok, perhaps this is a bit of a childish thought. But the traveler can only affect the universe in the manner in which they have if all of the events that led up to the traveler occur exactly as they have. If they do not then the traveler either doesnt go into the past and the universe is forked at a "time-point" or the traveler goes into the past and there is a different set of event which leads to another fork. If there is any event which directly cycles the later universe to some earlier time point, then all events within that cycle, every single one produces a fork. This connection can never be proven, it is simply a thought experiment. Now, lets take the next step. The universe you live in (the events that lead up to the point at which you are reading this) is the one in which you live. Any difference in events prior to this (and if there is a cycle of any sort, after this) have occured exactly as the occured. And yet they also occured differently, but not in this universe. This is sort of the concept of the multiverse, where all events that can occur within given xyz parameters have occured and have produced a progeny of related but not exactly the same universes and the observer sits in only one of these.
Free will occurs. But if universe is cyclic (in time) then everything that you do has already occured and will occur exactly as it has (sort of)...
One more step, get rid of any conception of the cycle. Throw in an all knowing creator who sees all events that will occur in the universe, that this somehow constitutes a plan and badabing you have got derived Judeo-Christian beliefs...
Originally posted by BR
You say I'm hostile. You say my posts are flaimbait. Read your own oh powerful mod.
There is a small typo error in the last word. Use a G
Originally posted by BR
No, you're just sending me to your website where I can find god when I asked you specifically if a master plan and free will can exist.
Like I said,
If you had taken the time to read some of those contents smart arse you would have noted that they specifically adress the original question you asked..
But what's the point of asking a question when you already think you know the answer better than everyone else..?
Sounds more like your saying..
Look at me Look at me..I have the answer.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
Deaf-Dumb & Blind......Sure proof of you arrogance..
There is a difference between debate... and an argument.
there should be a rule for message board postings like... no personal attacks on a persons credentials, but only question their beliefs.
Cheers
Scott
The ignorance of such fate gives us the sense of what we normally refer to as 'free will'.
Simple.
Originally posted by aquafire
Like I said,
If you had taken the time to read some of those contents smart arse you would have noted that they specifically adress the original question you asked..
And the answer is in my conversion to your wacky religion. Right. No thanks.
But what's the point of asking a question when you already think you know the answer better than everyone else..?
Excuse me? You obviously don't pay attention to my posts. I'm PROUD that I don't have all the answers. I EMBRACE the unknown.
Sounds more like your saying..
Look at me Look at me..I have the answer.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
Nope. Not at all.
Deaf-Dumb & Blind......Sure proof of you arrogance..
Let's try to keep this thread civil, alright?
Originally posted by BR
I EMBRACE the unknown.
Apparently you do
a. The problem of evil
b. Free will versus divine foreknowledge
c. Free will versus determinism
a. and b. are not discussed much in non-theological circles. c. is still a biggie though -- I for one was delighted to see it play such a prominent role in the new Matrix flick.
P.S. The Matrix site has a surprisingly good philosophy section; see also a recent article in Salon about the philosophy in the Matrix.
Originally posted by pfflam
Afro Cuban, African, Brazilian, or American vooduon?
Ifa- Yoruba...the originator
Originally posted by Sondjata
Ifa- Yoruba...the originator
Ifa? That's a branch of the Roman Catholic Church, like "Ifa you don't astop atouching yourself like that, youra going astraight to hell!", right?
Originally posted by shetline
Ifa? That's a branch of the Roman Catholic Church, like "Ifa you don't astop atouching yourself like that, youra going astraight to hell!", right?
LOL
Originally posted by shetline
Ifa? That's a branch of the Roman Catholic Church, like "Ifa you don't astop atouching yourself like that, youra going astraight to hell!", right?
lol...cute.. naw..nothing to do with Christianity Roman or otherwise...
ifa you dont...... lol...
Originally posted by ena
I would imagine if mankind had put all the effort of killing each other into finding cures for diseases, things could be much better than they are now.
....but as it stands, we can't even be civil to each other on an internet fourm---I think we have a ways to go before we start pointing fingers at God.
Out of this whole topic, I got a bit of chuckle out of this statement (aside from the "Ifa" dialogue
As my direct contribution to the actual topic, I would stick with the premise that notions of "free will" and "divine plan" are in conflict on a fundamental level (aside from clever twists of semantics to explain otherwise).
Like how nobody ever goes to the toilet in hollywood movies
Someone will start bootin' in doors and shootin' at the protagonist if they do. Anyway...
John Milton did a pretty good job with this in De Doctrina Christiana.
A synopsis for those of use who have not read it would be useful: what side of the fence does Milton fall on wrt this topic and what are his arguments?
Sounds more like your saying..
Look at me Look at me..I have the answer.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
No, BR is saying this:
Look at me Look at me..I have no answers.....& I will just pretend to listen to your opinions...
Defining the multiverse as the set of parallel universes created by the results of choices/chaos, do we have free will if:
Originally posted by BR
I often hear two seemingly contradictory statements uttered by many religious folk these days. god has a plan and free will exists. When someone dies young in an accident, I often hear things along the lines of "well, god works in mysterious ways he has a plan best not question his will." Yet, at the same time this master plan exists there somehow is free will.
Answer me a couple things:
1) Explain how a master plan and free will can coexist.
2) If there exists a master plan, what is the point in praying for something? If it's in the plan then you'll get it so quit wasting your time.
Note to groverat: This thread is not flaimbait nor was the other one you locked. I'm sorry but religion just does not make a lick of sense to me and I'm trying to understand the point of view of (unfortunately) the majority of the people living in my country and around the world.
Ah, free will again -- you've pulled me back out of lurker mode.
1 ) You cannot logically have free will if there is a divine entity micromanaging the daily events of our world. The people who think there is a divine reason for every accident, and say that they have free will are being inconsistent.
2) Many people find the act of praying comforting, and it can have some of the same benefits as meditation.
Religion is in the realm of emotion, not logical thinking. It fills a need and is quite helpful to millions of people. The problems with religion arise when the adherents to a particular sect try to enforce their views on others, or attack science that does not agree with one of their beliefs.
Originally posted by Res
you've pulled me back out of lurker mode.
HUZZAH! At least I'm good for something.