You're making the assumption that every abortion is one less person in the society. I don't think that's a valid assumption.
Not until you realize that there have been about 35 million abortions in the USA alone..since 1973.
Then consider how many of these "aborted children " would now be in their 20's & 30's having children of their own.
So the statistic should also include those 2.1 children you are referring to as well..Inflating the total potential population loss to closer to 50 Million...or more...
Quote:
Originally posted by Towel
And anyway, there's also the slightly uncomfortable argument that abortion saved our society: that not having all those millions of out-of-wedlock kids raised by single teenage moms contributed greatly to the fall in crime rates and rise in general well-being during the lare 80s and 90s.
Whoa..There's a sweeper...
Are you saying that children raised by single mums are more likely to be criminals ?\
Noone will argue against it. Noone is trying to take fetis(is that the plural form?) out of women who want to keep them.
But there has to be a constant. What is it, a fetus or a baby?
If you believe it's a fetus then she is wrong, it's a fetus and you do argue with her. Not that you advocate forced abortions, I don't know where you get that.
If you believe it's a baby then there is no argument.
A 25-week-old fetus/baby/taco is either a fetus or a baby in your mind, to confer scientific status on what the mother thinks is borderline... religious. *gasp*
Why is it whenever some holds a mirror to such Pro-choice generalisations as " backyard abortions " they're emmediately attacked & dismissed as ranting ?
Everything I said is true..Perhaps you'd like to show me the statistics on backyard abortions ? That great Pro-Choice Bogy....but somehow ...I doubt it.
I said that banning abortion after 8 weeks past conception with an exception for the health of the mother would pass constitutional muster. That is, it would be allowable under Roe v Wade. It appears to me you don't want an health exception or you want to ban birth control?
Quote:
I am thinking about societies that place a Higher value on "Family life " than the self indulgent " me me me " Baby boomer mentality that has come to dominate in the west. And that means most of the rest of the world..including many traditional 3rd world countries.
Are you relating this "culture" to the future of the United States or some apocalyptic religious thing?
Quote:
Like I said, what goes around..comes around...
But make no mistake THT, we in the West are reaping a whirlwind its just that we're sitting on the porch and haven't noticed the whirlwind that is about to hit.
Functional MRI. aka fMRI. Functional MRI is able to detect parts of the brain that are activated. For example you do a resting scan ... then a scan with finger movement. It tells you which part of the brain is controlling the finger.
Now MRI is safe for pregnant women. As resolution and sensitivity increase you'll be able to do fMRI on a developing human. What will we find out? I can't wait to see.
actually no... you probably will never be able to do fMRI on a fetus because it is moving etc etc...
Are you relating this "culture" to the future of the United States or some apocalyptic religious thing? What's going to happen exactly?
I think your pulling my leg..your not that dumb....
But in case you have a real knowledge problem consider these points.
The West..& not just the USA are facing an increasing aging population crisis.That means that the fewer young have to carry a much heavier tax burden...
Over the next 15 to 20 years taxes will need rise to pay for all the ( baby boomer ) pensioner benefits. hospital treatments, old peoples home etc etc.
Goverments all around Europe & in also in Australia are suggesting that pension rates are NOT sustainable.
So changes will have to be made...But even with all the changes like making pensions more difficult to get..the overall tax burden is stil going to skyrocket..
Second point, Western Industries need workers..regardless of where they come from.
Americans & most other western countries are also facing labour shortages ( despite unemployment %'s )..this is true of areas now considered as menial, or agricultural , dirty factory work etc..
These jobs are being filled by both legal & illegal immigrants desperate to get on in life...I say good on them & welcome....
generally speaking most of these people come from cultural / religious backgrounds that emphasise traditional family values.
respect of elders, value of children...etc
It's as simple as that..you do the sums....
The growing middle eastern / islamification of Europe marks a trend as does the growing Latino / Hispanic / Catholic influence in the USA..( not implying any denegration of either faiths here ).
These both auger profound shifts in cultural values & appearance over the next 50 years...Both of which I hope will turn out for the best for all communities...
America, Australia, Canada, Europe are going to be less " causcasian "if that means anything.
It doesn't bother me..but I do worry about Xtremists reacting with exenophobic / rascist fears. hence my references to a whirlwind...France is a powder keg right now, as is Germany and other parts of Europe...It is difficult to not suggest intolerance / racist violence will not happen in the USA as well...
I've never understood how "the government" cries hysterical overpopulation to one generation (to the point of upsetting the normal replacement of the species) and then promises SoSec to another generation.
SoSec was a panzi scheme form the beginning, which made money by having the retirement age at "sweet spot" in relation to how long people lived. Fitness fads ( and other things) drove the life expectancy off the sweet spot, and now all that's left is a debt of honor and ONE HELL of a lot of anticipated debt. We are within five years of FICA not being able to keep itself afloat---and the press treats the story like a Yeti sighting --what a joke.
Not until you realize that there have been about 35 million abortions in the USA alone..since 1973.
Then consider how many of these "aborted children " would now be in their 20's & 30's having children of their own.
So the statistic should also include those 2.1 children you are referring to as well..Inflating the total potential population loss to closer to 50 Million...or more...
Hmm...you're still missing the point, which is that those "aborted children", if not aborted, would have simply taken the place of children that were actually born, later. For example, take that woman who had an abortion at age 19, say in 1980. Let's say she wants two kids. If she hadn't had the abortion, she'd have had another kid in say, 1982. Today, three people. Having had the abortion, she instead has her two kids in 1992 and 1994. Today, three people. What we're doing these days is just lengthening the time of a generation, not eliminating kids.
The only way to drop birth rates, permanently, is to decide to have fewer kids (or none at all). That's the problem in places like Japan - many women simply don't want to have children. Whether they execute that choice by birth control, abortion, or abstinence doesn't matter.
We are within five years of FICA not being able to keep itself afloat---and the press treats the story like a Yeti sighting --what a joke.
You're right in principle, that SS was never meant to be a retirement program, beacuse most people were never meant to live long enough to retire. But IIRC, 2012 is the date when FICA will begin going into deficit. And even then, it has billions and billions in loans to the US government to draw on. As long as the government doesn't default on its debt, it's good until sometime in the 2030s. Those people who raised FICA rates and lowered benefits in the 80s did good first aid. The only immediate danger is that politicians in 2012 will decide that the US government doesn't need to make good its debts.
I don't buy into predictions of the future based on static cultural, economic and technological models of the present. All it takes is change to invalidate any of those models. And I'm a believer, an optimist, that our modern society will continue its upward trajectory because technology and adaptability will mitigate problems that drag that trajectory down.
Social security too much of tax burden? Well, increase the eligibility limit to 70. Medical care too much of a tax burden? Decrease benifits. Not enough workforce in the USA (modern nations), increase immigration limits. Technology will be able to further increase our productivity just as robotics, personal computers and the Internet has increased our productivity. Eventually even biotech and med-tech economics and technology will make its cost fall back down to Earth.
Now, is abortion the cause of Western societies' low birth rates? No, I really don't think so. In Western society it simply costs too much to have a lot of children as we all know but express in different ways. If abortion was abolished, parents would simply use the approved birth control methods.
Quote:
These both auger profound shifts in cultural values & appearance over the next 50 years...Both of which I hope will turn out for the best for all communities...
America, Australia, Canada, Europe are going to be less " causcasian "if that means anything.
It doesn't bother me..but I do worry about Xtremists reacting with exenophobic / rascist fears. hence my references to a whirlwind...France is a powder keg right now, as is Germany and other parts of Europe...It is difficult to not suggest intolerance / racist violence will not happen in the USA as well...
Oog. I hate topics like this...there is no right answer. What constitutes life? A DND strand? A thought process? A 3rd-person-imposed 'moral' decision on cognizance? Yuk.
Where does this shit end? This years trauma is next years Late Nite joke fodder. Welcome to The World®. I'm here all night..try the veal...Sheesh.
When 'morality' is outlawed...only outlaws will have 'morals'...
Hmm...you're still missing the point, which is that those "aborted children", if not aborted, would have simply taken the place of children that were actually born.
Really love your take on arithmetic...
If you add the two children to the one already aborted that makes three children..Not two children.
As regards aborted children & the decline of Population numbers in the west..the answer is a pretty clear..YES.
Especially when you consider that we are approaching the One in every three children ratio.
Finally, whether or not you buy what i am predicting is fine by me..
You can live in a Lah-Lah land forever if you like, but the statistical evidence is overwhelming...
Comments
Originally posted by Towel
You're making the assumption that every abortion is one less person in the society. I don't think that's a valid assumption.
Not until you realize that there have been about 35 million abortions in the USA alone..since 1973.
Then consider how many of these "aborted children " would now be in their 20's & 30's having children of their own.
So the statistic should also include those 2.1 children you are referring to as well..Inflating the total potential population loss to closer to 50 Million...or more...
Originally posted by Towel
And anyway, there's also the slightly uncomfortable argument that abortion saved our society: that not having all those millions of out-of-wedlock kids raised by single teenage moms contributed greatly to the fall in crime rates and rise in general well-being during the lare 80s and 90s.
Whoa..There's a sweeper...
Are you saying that children raised by single mums are more likely to be criminals ?
Noone will argue against it. Noone is trying to take fetis(is that the plural form?) out of women who want to keep them.
But there has to be a constant. What is it, a fetus or a baby?
If you believe it's a fetus then she is wrong, it's a fetus and you do argue with her. Not that you advocate forced abortions, I don't know where you get that.
If you believe it's a baby then there is no argument.
A 25-week-old fetus/baby/taco is either a fetus or a baby in your mind, to confer scientific status on what the mother thinks is borderline... religious. *gasp*
Originally posted by aquafire
Why is it whenever some holds a mirror to such Pro-choice generalisations as " backyard abortions " they're emmediately attacked & dismissed as ranting ?
Everything I said is true..Perhaps you'd like to show me the statistics on backyard abortions ? That great Pro-Choice Bogy....but somehow ...I doubt it.
I said that banning abortion after 8 weeks past conception with an exception for the health of the mother would pass constitutional muster. That is, it would be allowable under Roe v Wade. It appears to me you don't want an health exception or you want to ban birth control?
I am thinking about societies that place a Higher value on "Family life " than the self indulgent " me me me " Baby boomer mentality that has come to dominate in the west. And that means most of the rest of the world..including many traditional 3rd world countries.
Are you relating this "culture" to the future of the United States or some apocalyptic religious thing?
Like I said, what goes around..comes around...
But make no mistake THT, we in the West are reaping a whirlwind its just that we're sitting on the porch and haven't noticed the whirlwind that is about to hit.
What's going to happen exactly?
Originally posted by Scott
I'll toss this in. Real world ... could happen
Functional MRI. aka fMRI. Functional MRI is able to detect parts of the brain that are activated. For example you do a resting scan ... then a scan with finger movement. It tells you which part of the brain is controlling the finger.
Now MRI is safe for pregnant women. As resolution and sensitivity increase you'll be able to do fMRI on a developing human.
actually no... you probably will never be able to do fMRI on a fetus because it is moving etc etc...
Originally posted by THT
Are you relating this "culture" to the future of the United States or some apocalyptic religious thing? What's going to happen exactly?
I think your pulling my leg..your not that dumb....
But in case you have a real knowledge problem consider these points.
The West..& not just the USA are facing an increasing aging population crisis.That means that the fewer young have to carry a much heavier tax burden...
Over the next 15 to 20 years taxes will need rise to pay for all the ( baby boomer ) pensioner benefits. hospital treatments, old peoples home etc etc.
Goverments all around Europe & in also in Australia are suggesting that pension rates are NOT sustainable.
So changes will have to be made...But even with all the changes like making pensions more difficult to get..the overall tax burden is stil going to skyrocket..
Second point, Western Industries need workers..regardless of where they come from.
Americans & most other western countries are also facing labour shortages ( despite unemployment %'s )..this is true of areas now considered as menial, or agricultural , dirty factory work etc..
These jobs are being filled by both legal & illegal immigrants desperate to get on in life...I say good on them & welcome....
generally speaking most of these people come from cultural / religious backgrounds that emphasise traditional family values.
respect of elders, value of children...etc
It's as simple as that..you do the sums....
The growing middle eastern / islamification of Europe marks a trend as does the growing Latino / Hispanic / Catholic influence in the USA..( not implying any denegration of either faiths here ).
These both auger profound shifts in cultural values & appearance over the next 50 years...Both of which I hope will turn out for the best for all communities...
America, Australia, Canada, Europe are going to be less " causcasian "if that means anything.
It doesn't bother me..but I do worry about Xtremists reacting with exenophobic / rascist fears. hence my references to a whirlwind...France is a powder keg right now, as is Germany and other parts of Europe...It is difficult to not suggest intolerance / racist violence will not happen in the USA as well...
I've never understood how "the government" cries hysterical overpopulation to one generation (to the point of upsetting the normal replacement of the species) and then promises SoSec to another generation.
SoSec was a panzi scheme form the beginning, which made money by having the retirement age at "sweet spot" in relation to how long people lived. Fitness fads ( and other things) drove the life expectancy off the sweet spot, and now all that's left is a debt of honor and ONE HELL of a lot of anticipated debt. We are within five years of FICA not being able to keep itself afloat---and the press treats the story like a Yeti sighting --what a joke.
Originally posted by aquafire
Not until you realize that there have been about 35 million abortions in the USA alone..since 1973.
Then consider how many of these "aborted children " would now be in their 20's & 30's having children of their own.
So the statistic should also include those 2.1 children you are referring to as well..Inflating the total potential population loss to closer to 50 Million...or more...
Hmm...you're still missing the point, which is that those "aborted children", if not aborted, would have simply taken the place of children that were actually born, later. For example, take that woman who had an abortion at age 19, say in 1980. Let's say she wants two kids. If she hadn't had the abortion, she'd have had another kid in say, 1982. Today, three people. Having had the abortion, she instead has her two kids in 1992 and 1994. Today, three people. What we're doing these days is just lengthening the time of a generation, not eliminating kids.
The only way to drop birth rates, permanently, is to decide to have fewer kids (or none at all). That's the problem in places like Japan - many women simply don't want to have children. Whether they execute that choice by birth control, abortion, or abstinence doesn't matter.
Originally posted by ena
We are within five years of FICA not being able to keep itself afloat---and the press treats the story like a Yeti sighting --what a joke.
You're right in principle, that SS was never meant to be a retirement program, beacuse most people were never meant to live long enough to retire. But IIRC, 2012 is the date when FICA will begin going into deficit. And even then, it has billions and billions in loans to the US government to draw on. As long as the government doesn't default on its debt, it's good until sometime in the 2030s. Those people who raised FICA rates and lowered benefits in the 80s did good first aid. The only immediate danger is that politicians in 2012 will decide that the US government doesn't need to make good its debts.
Originally posted by aquafire
It's as simple as that..you do the sums....
I don't buy into predictions of the future based on static cultural, economic and technological models of the present. All it takes is change to invalidate any of those models. And I'm a believer, an optimist, that our modern society will continue its upward trajectory because technology and adaptability will mitigate problems that drag that trajectory down.
Social security too much of tax burden? Well, increase the eligibility limit to 70. Medical care too much of a tax burden? Decrease benifits. Not enough workforce in the USA (modern nations), increase immigration limits. Technology will be able to further increase our productivity just as robotics, personal computers and the Internet has increased our productivity. Eventually even biotech and med-tech economics and technology will make its cost fall back down to Earth.
Now, is abortion the cause of Western societies' low birth rates? No, I really don't think so. In Western society it simply costs too much to have a lot of children as we all know but express in different ways. If abortion was abolished, parents would simply use the approved birth control methods.
These both auger profound shifts in cultural values & appearance over the next 50 years...Both of which I hope will turn out for the best for all communities...
America, Australia, Canada, Europe are going to be less " causcasian "if that means anything.
It doesn't bother me..but I do worry about Xtremists reacting with exenophobic / rascist fears. hence my references to a whirlwind...France is a powder keg right now, as is Germany and other parts of Europe...It is difficult to not suggest intolerance / racist violence will not happen in the USA as well...
So no abortion and no immigration?
Originally posted by billybobsky
actually no... you probably will never be able to do fMRI on a fetus because it is moving etc etc...
Real people don't move?
Where does this shit end? This years trauma is next years Late Nite joke fodder. Welcome to The World®. I'm here all night..try the veal...Sheesh.
When 'morality' is outlawed...only outlaws will have 'morals'...
Originally posted by Towel
Hmm...you're still missing the point, which is that those "aborted children", if not aborted, would have simply taken the place of children that were actually born.
Really love your take on arithmetic...
If you add the two children to the one already aborted that makes three children..Not two children.
As regards aborted children & the decline of Population numbers in the west..the answer is a pretty clear..YES.
Especially when you consider that we are approaching the One in every three children ratio.
Finally, whether or not you buy what i am predicting is fine by me..
You can live in a Lah-Lah land forever if you like, but the statistical evidence is overwhelming...
Originally posted by bunge
I'm sorry, but overall population is irrelevant. The gov has no business regulating birthrates. They can't even be trusted with taxes.
Huh ? How do they "regulate birthrates" ? Are you living in China ?