<strong>They certainly are... Go do you r homework and check the facts. OH and </strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple Apologists are so cute when they are angry,
[quote]CUPERTINO, California?October 16, 2002?Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2002 fourth quarter ended September 28, 2002. For the quarter, the Company posted a net loss of $45 million, or $.13 per share<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Ed M.:
<strong>Oh, and aren't you feeling just a little slimy for selling those poor customers a computer from a company that doesn't really exist anymore? Just think, Apple's been around way before Compaq and now they can say they've witnessed the passing of Compaq. How ironic. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would I feel bad about it?
These customers have elected to abandon the Macintosh, infavor of Windows PC's.
If I didn't sell them the PC's they wanted they would find someone else who would,
Oh, and aren't you feeling just a little slimy for selling those poor customers a computer from a company that doesn't really exist anymore? Just think, Apple's been around way before Compaq and now they can say they've witnessed the passing of Compaq. How ironic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is stretching it too much, unless something happened I don't know about. I confess that I don't keep up with the latest news. The last I heard, Compaq merged with HP or was purchased by HP, so the Compaq products are supported by the combined company, whatever it is called. True, it is the death of a corporate name, if they call it something else.
If any of us had an experience like Stagflation Steve, we would think the sky is falling for Apple too. When things pick up I bet he changes his mind. Apple really is going through some rough times right now, and I believe they do need the low cost model for the reasons I stated in the last three posts above. However, once the IBM 970 is shipping in Macs, it is a whole new ballgame. The high end will be doing well, very well.
I can't stress enough that situations like Stagflation Steve describes are indeed happening. How did Dell get to be number one in education? The trend is continuing if I'm not mistaken. I have friends who used to be Mac users. They don't need much from a computer, so they have PCs running Windows now. They simply refused to pay the big premium for a Mac. Sure it is not much of a premium if you want that kind of performance and capabilities, but for email and word processing it is a huge premium. (Hee, hee. One got hit with an email virus big time.) Other Mac users are saying things that make me think they plan to switch too. So it is real in my experience, and I know it is real in education.
It is hard to be positive about Apple at the moment, only the iBook is selling in reasonable numbers, everything else is dead. Except for the iPod which doesn't really count.
Between Mac OS X that my customers just don't seem the least bit interested in and price, they are losing interest and faith in Apple.
A few years ago things weren't to bad, not really great but acceptable, now I am starting to wonder if it is even worth the trouble.
Although people have been forcasting Apples death since 1982, for the first time alot of the hardcore mac user base is believing it and they are switching to PC's in large numbers, just yesterday a guy who has been a mac user since 1986 and was once almost violent when it came to defending the mac took home a new Compaq Evo notebook.
Until recently Apple could count on education sales, Apple is vanishing from the education market, they aren't even trying to compeat against Dell, sure they get the odd high profile contract, but those don't offset the Dell invasion one bit.
Very few people appreciate the design of the iMac, Apple needs to throw together an inexpensive desktop system without an intergrated display that they can sell at a competitive price.
Until they do so, Apple will continue to decline in education and they will fail to grow in business.
As for Compaq, the Compaq brand isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it was a merger, and for the time being Compaq product lines will continue to be called Compaq.
8 years ago my university had about a 50-50 spread of Macs and PC's. The the various colledge/dept labs often had Mac labs. Today, we are about 90-10 PC to mac. Even the education department went all Dell 3 years ago.
Macs are losing ground so fast in edu, it's incredible. I worked with some teachers on curriculum, out of a dozen, mostly from schools in Toronto boards, NONE had new macs in their schools. All computers purchased in the last 3 years have been PC's.
Stagflation Steve isn't making this stuff up, people. Dell and co are putting a major hurting on Apple.
[quote] From Matsu: Macs are losing ground so fast in edu, it's incredible. I worked with some teachers on curriculum, out of a dozen, mostly from schools in Toronto boards, NONE had new macs in their schools. All computers purchased in the last 3 years have been PC's. <hr></blockquote>
I agree wholeheartedly!! These days the only record that Apple stands to set in the edu market is the fastest ever loss of market share! They are getting slaughtered. It is an incredibly hard battle to fight, and there are so many factors that go into educational purchasing that just offering a pretty color won't do. I fear that Apple is in real trouble in this space. I think that the real danger going forward is not Dell, but rather HP. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
What's more, their edu discount is virtually nonexistant, nothing more than the edu discount you get as a student/teacher. People on these boards keep talking about Apple cutting really good deals for schools with high volume purchases, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. I know this because I took an interest in it and did a little digging. What did I get from Apple (through the school board) but a price list, which is actually nothing more than a PDF you can get from their site. The deals were, in a word, weak, OK, two words, EXTREMELY WEAK. Maybe it's up to an edu sales rep to come in and offer these supposed deals, but as far as a principle or superintendent or board tech rep thinking to make a purchase based on Apple (Edu Only) literature, the prices SUCK.
Apple better cook up something soon. Headless iMac, budget tower, a truly affordable, and by affordable I mean CHEAP A-I-O, something, 'cause those lost sales ain't comming back any time soon.
I know Apple has cut some pretty good deals on the old CRT iMac and iBook, but unless your looking to spend atleast $250,000 Apple won't give you the time of day beyond the education list price
Good Lord, ot the medical profession! Aren't they running AWAY from Microsoft wares (especially Windows) because of the liability associated with the confidentiality of people's medical records?? The banking industry isn't too keen on Windows either.
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Good articles and well worth the read. We are very aware of HIPPA regulations and the M$ EULA's do not apply to the majority of hospitals. At least the five associated with us. Any IT dept. worth anything would not allow patient info. to be stored on local machines. All of our desktops run XP (or will after our NT to XP migration) and user security is done at the OS level, however patient data security is done at the App. level. While the workstations run XP, the patient sensitive apps like the AS400 (billing) connect via reflection windows (scan the hard drive if you want, just a pretty telnet session nothing on the hard drives), patient records/test/ADT's/results/charges app. (Cerner) is done via web (citrix web client) where the data resides on my AIX servers running HA with oracle db (again scan the hard drives nothing there) Either way it doesn't matter because all of our 2000 Advance servers are running in a SAN. All drives are virtual and shared out through our IBM Shark running AIX 5L (2 terabytes of storage in a fiber channel SANS with gigabit fiber) Heck the nurses/doctors can't even save to desktop, actually goes to user directories (again virtual drives on Shark)
So I think we have HIPPA covered. But banks...cant speak about them.
[[[Well,. Like you say. The PC market is flooded. But Apple have 95% of the market to aim at. Dell haven't got that advantage and still make a 'profit'. ]]]
LBB, it's like this. People want to say that Apple didn't turn a profit. They did in fact make money this quarter from product sales -- I provided the links/URLs. Dell on the other hand would have shown a sizable LOSS if it wasn't for their hedge-bet and the way they changed the way they report earnings at the last minute. All I'm saying is that you can bake the numbers any way you wish. The fact is that Analysts are already *concerned* with the way Dell is choosing to report *earnings*. It cold blow up in their face. We'll have to wait and see.
[[[The flat panel iMac sums up everything that's wrong with Apple.]]]
You'll have to be a little more specific with this comment. From what I'm suspecting, you make it sound like Apple is just like every other "Windows repackager" out there. What other PC OEM does their own hardware, software and OS Research and Development? Remember, Apple literally *touches* every aspect of the goods that they provide. These companies simply don't have the R&D costs (and others) to factor in. Think about it. On the other hand, let me ask you this... What would *really* be a competitive price for an Apple system with all the goodies? How much? Make sure it's a thought-out reply and not a "I would love it if Apple's systems were this much..." etc. I'll give you an idea.. My cousin is an estimator that worked on designing prison cells (of all things). It might surprise many of you that the cost of a single cell can be upwards to 25,000 dollars US. That's AFTER the R&D. The R&D came at a price. Then there are other factors such as fire rating and testing -- that alone can cost quite a bit more than 15 G's. I'll see if I can get some of his old spec sheets and product and job estimates so I can show you. And these are for 8 x 10 prison cells!!
One cold argue that all the materials can be had for surplus prices, well, that might be true, but his particular company did just that, they assembled whole prisons from cells that they manufactured using those surplus materials. His company did a lot of custom refinement and manufacturing (at even more cost). The bottom line is that when you are simply a "repackager" you have far less costs to worry about than an actual *manufacturer*.
[[[When the odd curious PC user comes into the store, or PC customer has a look at the Mac, they just look at the price and sneer.]]]
Perhaps because they have no real concept? Are these the same dads' that think a night out to dinner is taking the Family out to get a sack of White Castles?? If you have a 5$ head then go out and buy yourself a 5$ helmet...
[[[Otherwise, I just don't see it happening, this quarter for the first time since 1997 I am going to get more revenue from PC sales than Mac sales.]]]
Then simply drop the Apple line and save yourself some $$ and aggravation and then you won't have to visit Mac boards. Why don't you try being a *real* salesman and promote your products. I'm a customer that shops "quality" first and price last. I've been burned way too many times in the past buying the "less expensive" goods. Take power tools for instance... No reasonable commercial craftsman would be using power or hand tools from K-Mart. Sears has exceptional hand tools, but their name-brand power tools suck big time. They are cheap and all the do-it-yourselfer flock to them thinking its a great deal.
[[[If I didn't sell them the PC's they wanted they would find someone else who would]]]
That's the point! There is ZERO brand loyalty in the Windows PC sector. EVERYTHING is based on PRICE. That's what happens when you don't offer anything that differentiates the products. You'll be out of business soon.\t
\t
[[[The last I heard, Compaq merged with HP or was purchased by HP, so the Compaq products are supported by the combined company, whatever it is called. True, it is the death of a corporate name, if they call it something else.]]]
It was a buyout NOT a merger. Read between the lines.... HP shelled out the $$ for Compaq because Compaq was in the crapper. As far as support. In 2 years, there won't be anymore Compaq line. Dell is hammering the hell out of HP\t
\t
[[[A few years ago things weren't to bad, not really great but acceptable, now I am starting to wonder if it is even worth the trouble. ]]]
There not. I'm telling you, drop the Mac line this way there might be a big press release and some media coverage and then you can openly and publicly state yourreasons for doing so. At that point we will all know who you are. Hey, how about a link to your website. I might want to buy a nice new Compaq.
[[[Very few people appreciate the design of the iMac, Apple needs to throw together an inexpensive desktop system without an integrated display that they can sell at a competitive price.]]]
Get a clue. PC WRPs are not like Apple who does all their own R&D. And you do loose credibility when you lump ALL the PC WRPs into a single entity and compare their overall sales to Apple's. these companies don't differentiate between their offerings and that Evo customer is more likely to buy a new Dell next time around after finding out that his system has been made obsolete in a few years and no longer supported.
[[[As for Compaq, the Compaq brand isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it was a merger, and for the time being Compaq product lines will continue to be called Compaq. ]]]
It was NOT a merger. Money changed hands. It was a buyout and nothing else, we won't be seeing the Compaq name too often anymore. The company is doing it to save face for a while. You'll see.
Also, note in this <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2005495.stm"; target="_blank">article</a> Steve Jobs "predicted that the hard times would last until at least the end of 2002 and would spell the end for some ailing firms.". Guess what, it's true, ala Gateway.
Question is, what happens at the end of 2002 to make Mr. Jobs confident hard times may be over for Apple. Stay tuned
ps. I would recommend you don't completely end your relationship w/ Apple in the foreseeable future.
<strong>It is hard to be positive about Apple at the moment, only the iBook is selling in reasonable numbers, everything else is dead. Except for the iPod which doesn't really count.
Between Mac OS X that my customers just don't seem the least bit interested in and price, they are losing interest and faith in Apple.
A few years ago things weren't to bad, not really great but acceptable, now I am starting to wonder if it is even worth the trouble.
Although people have been forcasting Apples death since 1982, for the first time alot of the hardcore mac user base is believing it and they are switching to PC's in large numbers, just yesterday a guy who has been a mac user since 1986 and was once almost violent when it came to defending the mac took home a new Compaq Evo notebook.
Until recently Apple could count on education sales, Apple is vanishing from the education market, they aren't even trying to compeat against Dell, sure they get the odd high profile contract, but those don't offset the Dell invasion one bit.
Very few people appreciate the design of the iMac, Apple needs to throw together an inexpensive desktop system without an intergrated display that they can sell at a competitive price.
Until they do so, Apple will continue to decline in education and they will fail to grow in business.
As for Compaq, the Compaq brand isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it was a merger, and for the time being Compaq product lines will continue to be called Compaq.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Stagflation Steve:
<strong> my business is more valuble to me than my credibility on an online message board.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your points about lower prices/higher performance is worthy of discussion. But your credibility is low.
Question is, what happens at the end of 2002 to make Mr. Jobs confident hard times may be over for Apple. Stay tuned
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good question. I always thought he was predicting the end of the recession. It seems most complaints about Apple are performance and price. It looks like performance will be the Mac's advantage once the IBM 970 is in them. But that will not get here until the second half of 2003. So, if there is some extra good news early in 2003, it may be a hot consumer digital devices, or a low cost Mac. If Apple covers the low end somehow, it will keep everybody happy.
I don't believe large numbers are switching from Macs to Windows PCs, but it is happening with people I know. Their reason? It boils down to price, period. They don't need much from a computer and the Windows boxes are just too cheap to resist. People don't see a good reason to pay a lot more for a Mac.
I usually never complain about Apple's pricing, although of course for selfish reasons I wish everything was cheaper. But I seriously think the G3 iMac should be no more than $699, if not $600. I know someone who wants to buy a new Mac for her parents, to replace an old Performa; the G3 iMac really would be plenty of computer for them. But come on, could it not at least have the 700MHz processor that was in the last of the high-end gumdrops, and a CD burner?! I have a really hard time recommending a 600MHz G3 with CD-ROM at the current price.
I think the real problem with Apple now isn't so much price as performance. People don't mind paying more for superior performance, but Apple can no longer claim to have a performance lead in ANYTHING. Even $600 Wintels are faster than all but the most expensive Macs.
The sooner Apple has the 970 the better. Then they can pimp out the Towers with real performance, and the consumer Macs can use the fastest G4s without treading on Powermac specs. Until then, Apple is literally playing with dynamite. It won't take much for Apple's base to erode right out from underneath them while they dick around with the 970.
Still, Macs could be cheaper. The LCD iMac in particular is way overpriced. It's my guess that Apple released the G4 iMac planning on a drop in LCD prices, and instead they got sacked with a rise. The G4 iMac should really cost about the same as the old, from $999 to $1499.
The eMac is totally overpriced, with that old CRT it should be $800-$1000.
The G3 iMac should be $600, tops--Apple must be making those for nearly nothing.
The towers are overpriced, but Apple needs to keep their margins somewhere. What I'd love to see is a consumer tower, but it's very likely that such a computer would eat into Powermac sales. I'm sure that's why Apple's only shot at one, the Cube, was so overpriced. If the Cube had cost what it SHOULD have, $999, then only an idiot would have bought an iMac or Tower unless they needed the expandability.
It is interesting that only certain Mac users are switching, based on those I know. Most were owners of 68K Macs, and one had a Performa 6400, which they gave to the kids. The one who I believe is thinking hard about switching owns one of the first PPC Macs, a 6100 or some such number. The others own newer Macs, and from what I can tell would not even consider switching. So, what does that really tell us? Maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion about low cost Macs, but I don't think so. To folks who are getting by with a very old Mac, a new Windows PC looks far better at a low price.
It is interesting that only certain Mac users are switching, based on those I know. Most were owners of 68K Macs, and one had a Performa 6400, which they gave to the kids. The one who I believe is thinking hard about switching owns one of the first PPC Macs, a 6100 or some such number. The others own newer Macs, and from what I can tell would not even consider switching. So, what does that really tell us? Maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion about low cost Macs, but I don't think so. To folks who are getting by with a very old Mac, a new Windows PC looks far better at a low price.<hr></blockquote>
Hmmm, you may be on to something here.
Those Mac users still running ancient hardware are doing so because they don't do much with their computers. Web, email, some word processing. So for them, XP is "good enough" to get by.
OTOH, the Mac users upgrading every couple of years or so, are actually USING their Macs, and are more likely to want to keep current, AND more likely to stick with the Mac because they know what they are doing and they know that Windows is just not the same.
The people who switch from Mac to Windows seem to come from three individual groups;
Performance Switchers: The people who jumped on the mac bandwagon back at the G3 was eating the Pentium II for lunch, for them the thrill has worn off, and they want to be able to say they have the fastest PC on the market.
Disgruntled Switchers: This group covers alot of the publishing industy and education, they are switching because they are pissed off with Apple. Their primary complaint is they feel Mac OS X is being forced upon them like a drunk prom date and they don't want it. In publishing and education alot of their core applications aren't now and never will be supported in Mac OS X, yet are supported in Windows
Price Switchers: This is the largest group by far, they look at what Apple is offering, then they look at what every other vendor is offering for the fraction of the price, for them it is no contest, "700mhz eMac or 2.4ghz Pentium 4 for the same price... hmm"
Education can also be lumped into the price switchers catagory
Stagflation Steve there is subgroup of UNIX users that are part of both the "Price Switchers" and the "Performance Switchers".
Their agrument is they already have a cheap Open source UNIX that runs on their Mac, so OS X means little to them. For them it is strickly the Hardware performance/price ratio that has them switch.
** To some (myself included), OS X has become just another UNIX window manager **
Anyway, going to shell out my 3 grand on a new PowerBook. Cant wait. If apple dies, so what? I'll still have my 1 inch thick, super drive equiped, titanium encased beauty and the best OS ever and i will keep it for the next 10 years. Then I will have to switch back to the economy class computers. Tis life.
The truth is, apples future is solid in the short term. They have enough leg to keep inovating for at least another 3 years even if things continue to not go their way. However, i think things will turn around pretty soon. The new laptops are an indication of that.
I think there is validity on both sides of this debate.
Macs do provide good value. The equipment is well made, support is great(rated best by PC magazine), total cost of ownership is low, reliability is very good and OS X is fantastic. Seems I recall Forbes and other mainstream press showing that the iBook and iMac were less expensive than similarly equipped pcs. Forbes just announced the Ti PowerBook as the nearly perfect laptop(before today's price drops and the upgrade to 1GHz).
On the other hand, while the value may be high so is the absolute price. Apple either can't or doesn't want to provide a system for roughly $600. It doesn't matter whether computers at this level are junk or not. Some people just don't look at anything over a certain price. Also, some people don't want clever designs. They just want a plain vanilla computer in a simple box that they can type on. If I needed to stock a room with computers and people on phones answering questions from a FMP database there would be little need for FW, superdrives, Aqua, iMovie and so on. For those with simple budgets or simple needs Apple no longer supplies a solution. Actually, the gumdrop iMac was a good solution but it is not promoted and is now a little stale.
I don't know enough about manufacturing and pricing to judge whether Apple should enter the low end or not. Some post about 2.4GHz P4s selling for $699. If those are so wonderful then why do other people pay over $2,000 or $3,000 or more for other designs of 2.4GHz P4s? It doesn't add up.
Comments
<strong>They certainly are... Go do you r homework and check the facts. OH and </strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple Apologists are so cute when they are angry,
[quote]CUPERTINO, California?October 16, 2002?Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2002 fourth quarter ended September 28, 2002. For the quarter, the Company posted a net loss of $45 million, or $.13 per share<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Ed M.:
<strong>Oh, and aren't you feeling just a little slimy for selling those poor customers a computer from a company that doesn't really exist anymore? Just think, Apple's been around way before Compaq and now they can say they've witnessed the passing of Compaq. How ironic. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Why would I feel bad about it?
These customers have elected to abandon the Macintosh, infavor of Windows PC's.
If I didn't sell them the PC's they wanted they would find someone else who would,
<strong>
Oh, and aren't you feeling just a little slimy for selling those poor customers a computer from a company that doesn't really exist anymore? Just think, Apple's been around way before Compaq and now they can say they've witnessed the passing of Compaq. How ironic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is stretching it too much, unless something happened I don't know about. I confess that I don't keep up with the latest news. The last I heard, Compaq merged with HP or was purchased by HP, so the Compaq products are supported by the combined company, whatever it is called. True, it is the death of a corporate name, if they call it something else.
If any of us had an experience like Stagflation Steve, we would think the sky is falling for Apple too. When things pick up I bet he changes his mind. Apple really is going through some rough times right now, and I believe they do need the low cost model for the reasons I stated in the last three posts above. However, once the IBM 970 is shipping in Macs, it is a whole new ballgame. The high end will be doing well, very well.
I can't stress enough that situations like Stagflation Steve describes are indeed happening. How did Dell get to be number one in education? The trend is continuing if I'm not mistaken. I have friends who used to be Mac users. They don't need much from a computer, so they have PCs running Windows now. They simply refused to pay the big premium for a Mac. Sure it is not much of a premium if you want that kind of performance and capabilities, but for email and word processing it is a huge premium. (Hee, hee. One got hit with an email virus big time.) Other Mac users are saying things that make me think they plan to switch too. So it is real in my experience, and I know it is real in education.
Between Mac OS X that my customers just don't seem the least bit interested in and price, they are losing interest and faith in Apple.
A few years ago things weren't to bad, not really great but acceptable, now I am starting to wonder if it is even worth the trouble.
Although people have been forcasting Apples death since 1982, for the first time alot of the hardcore mac user base is believing it and they are switching to PC's in large numbers, just yesterday a guy who has been a mac user since 1986 and was once almost violent when it came to defending the mac took home a new Compaq Evo notebook.
Until recently Apple could count on education sales, Apple is vanishing from the education market, they aren't even trying to compeat against Dell, sure they get the odd high profile contract, but those don't offset the Dell invasion one bit.
Very few people appreciate the design of the iMac, Apple needs to throw together an inexpensive desktop system without an intergrated display that they can sell at a competitive price.
Until they do so, Apple will continue to decline in education and they will fail to grow in business.
As for Compaq, the Compaq brand isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it was a merger, and for the time being Compaq product lines will continue to be called Compaq.
Macs are losing ground so fast in edu, it's incredible. I worked with some teachers on curriculum, out of a dozen, mostly from schools in Toronto boards, NONE had new macs in their schools. All computers purchased in the last 3 years have been PC's.
Stagflation Steve isn't making this stuff up, people. Dell and co are putting a major hurting on Apple.
I agree wholeheartedly!! These days the only record that Apple stands to set in the edu market is the fastest ever loss of market share! They are getting slaughtered. It is an incredibly hard battle to fight, and there are so many factors that go into educational purchasing that just offering a pretty color won't do. I fear that Apple is in real trouble in this space. I think that the real danger going forward is not Dell, but rather HP. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Apple better cook up something soon. Headless iMac, budget tower, a truly affordable, and by affordable I mean CHEAP A-I-O, something, 'cause those lost sales ain't comming back any time soon.
Good Lord, ot the medical profession! Aren't they running AWAY from Microsoft wares (especially Windows) because of the liability associated with the confidentiality of people's medical records?? The banking industry isn't too keen on Windows either.
[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Good articles and well worth the read. We are very aware of HIPPA regulations and the M$ EULA's do not apply to the majority of hospitals. At least the five associated with us. Any IT dept. worth anything would not allow patient info. to be stored on local machines. All of our desktops run XP (or will after our NT to XP migration) and user security is done at the OS level, however patient data security is done at the App. level. While the workstations run XP, the patient sensitive apps like the AS400 (billing) connect via reflection windows (scan the hard drive if you want, just a pretty telnet session nothing on the hard drives), patient records/test/ADT's/results/charges app. (Cerner) is done via web (citrix web client) where the data resides on my AIX servers running HA with oracle db (again scan the hard drives nothing there) Either way it doesn't matter because all of our 2000 Advance servers are running in a SAN. All drives are virtual and shared out through our IBM Shark running AIX 5L (2 terabytes of storage in a fiber channel SANS with gigabit fiber) Heck the nurses/doctors can't even save to desktop, actually goes to user directories (again virtual drives on Shark)
So I think we have HIPPA covered. But banks...cant speak about them.
LBB, it's like this. People want to say that Apple didn't turn a profit. They did in fact make money this quarter from product sales -- I provided the links/URLs. Dell on the other hand would have shown a sizable LOSS if it wasn't for their hedge-bet and the way they changed the way they report earnings at the last minute. All I'm saying is that you can bake the numbers any way you wish. The fact is that Analysts are already *concerned* with the way Dell is choosing to report *earnings*. It cold blow up in their face. We'll have to wait and see.
[[[The flat panel iMac sums up everything that's wrong with Apple.]]]
You'll have to be a little more specific with this comment. From what I'm suspecting, you make it sound like Apple is just like every other "Windows repackager" out there. What other PC OEM does their own hardware, software and OS Research and Development? Remember, Apple literally *touches* every aspect of the goods that they provide. These companies simply don't have the R&D costs (and others) to factor in. Think about it. On the other hand, let me ask you this... What would *really* be a competitive price for an Apple system with all the goodies? How much? Make sure it's a thought-out reply and not a "I would love it if Apple's systems were this much..." etc. I'll give you an idea.. My cousin is an estimator that worked on designing prison cells (of all things). It might surprise many of you that the cost of a single cell can be upwards to 25,000 dollars US. That's AFTER the R&D. The R&D came at a price. Then there are other factors such as fire rating and testing -- that alone can cost quite a bit more than 15 G's. I'll see if I can get some of his old spec sheets and product and job estimates so I can show you. And these are for 8 x 10 prison cells!!
One cold argue that all the materials can be had for surplus prices, well, that might be true, but his particular company did just that, they assembled whole prisons from cells that they manufactured using those surplus materials. His company did a lot of custom refinement and manufacturing (at even more cost). The bottom line is that when you are simply a "repackager" you have far less costs to worry about than an actual *manufacturer*.
[[[When the odd curious PC user comes into the store, or PC customer has a look at the Mac, they just look at the price and sneer.]]]
Perhaps because they have no real concept? Are these the same dads' that think a night out to dinner is taking the Family out to get a sack of White Castles?? If you have a 5$ head then go out and buy yourself a 5$ helmet...
[[[Otherwise, I just don't see it happening, this quarter for the first time since 1997 I am going to get more revenue from PC sales than Mac sales.]]]
Then simply drop the Apple line and save yourself some $$ and aggravation and then you won't have to visit Mac boards. Why don't you try being a *real* salesman and promote your products. I'm a customer that shops "quality" first and price last. I've been burned way too many times in the past buying the "less expensive" goods. Take power tools for instance... No reasonable commercial craftsman would be using power or hand tools from K-Mart. Sears has exceptional hand tools, but their name-brand power tools suck big time. They are cheap and all the do-it-yourselfer flock to them thinking its a great deal.
[[[If I didn't sell them the PC's they wanted they would find someone else who would]]]
That's the point! There is ZERO brand loyalty in the Windows PC sector. EVERYTHING is based on PRICE. That's what happens when you don't offer anything that differentiates the products. You'll be out of business soon.\t
\t
[[[The last I heard, Compaq merged with HP or was purchased by HP, so the Compaq products are supported by the combined company, whatever it is called. True, it is the death of a corporate name, if they call it something else.]]]
It was a buyout NOT a merger. Read between the lines.... HP shelled out the $$ for Compaq because Compaq was in the crapper. As far as support. In 2 years, there won't be anymore Compaq line. Dell is hammering the hell out of HP\t
\t
[[[A few years ago things weren't to bad, not really great but acceptable, now I am starting to wonder if it is even worth the trouble. ]]]
There not. I'm telling you, drop the Mac line this way there might be a big press release and some media coverage and then you can openly and publicly state yourreasons for doing so. At that point we will all know who you are. Hey, how about a link to your website. I might want to buy a nice new Compaq.
[[[Very few people appreciate the design of the iMac, Apple needs to throw together an inexpensive desktop system without an integrated display that they can sell at a competitive price.]]]
Get a clue. PC WRPs are not like Apple who does all their own R&D. And you do loose credibility when you lump ALL the PC WRPs into a single entity and compare their overall sales to Apple's. these companies don't differentiate between their offerings and that Evo customer is more likely to buy a new Dell next time around after finding out that his system has been made obsolete in a few years and no longer supported.
[[[As for Compaq, the Compaq brand isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it was a merger, and for the time being Compaq product lines will continue to be called Compaq. ]]]
It was NOT a merger. Money changed hands. It was a buyout and nothing else, we won't be seeing the Compaq name too often anymore. The company is doing it to save face for a while. You'll see.
HP to buy Compaq for $25 billion
<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1001-272519.html?legacy=cnet&tag=tp_pr"; target="_blank">http://news.com.com/2100-1001-272519.html?legacy=cnet&tag=tp_pr</a>;
Anyway, it's going to get ugly for HP. Just wait and see.
--
Ed M.
<strong>
I am really glad that cheap high quality PC's are avaiable, it lets me hold onto my Macintosh customers when they switch to Windows.
And more are switching now than ever before,</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe in your area, but this <a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/03.marketshare.php"; target="_blank">article</a> somewhat refutes your contention that droves of Apple users are switching.
Also, note in this <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2005495.stm"; target="_blank">article</a> Steve Jobs "predicted that the hard times would last until at least the end of 2002 and would spell the end for some ailing firms.". Guess what, it's true, ala Gateway.
Question is, what happens at the end of 2002 to make Mr. Jobs confident hard times may be over for Apple. Stay tuned
ps. I would recommend you don't completely end your relationship w/ Apple in the foreseeable future.
[ 11-06-2002: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>
<strong>It is hard to be positive about Apple at the moment, only the iBook is selling in reasonable numbers, everything else is dead. Except for the iPod which doesn't really count.
Between Mac OS X that my customers just don't seem the least bit interested in and price, they are losing interest and faith in Apple.
A few years ago things weren't to bad, not really great but acceptable, now I am starting to wonder if it is even worth the trouble.
Although people have been forcasting Apples death since 1982, for the first time alot of the hardcore mac user base is believing it and they are switching to PC's in large numbers, just yesterday a guy who has been a mac user since 1986 and was once almost violent when it came to defending the mac took home a new Compaq Evo notebook.
Until recently Apple could count on education sales, Apple is vanishing from the education market, they aren't even trying to compeat against Dell, sure they get the odd high profile contract, but those don't offset the Dell invasion one bit.
Very few people appreciate the design of the iMac, Apple needs to throw together an inexpensive desktop system without an intergrated display that they can sell at a competitive price.
Until they do so, Apple will continue to decline in education and they will fail to grow in business.
As for Compaq, the Compaq brand isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it was a merger, and for the time being Compaq product lines will continue to be called Compaq.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by Stagflation Steve:
<strong> my business is more valuble to me than my credibility on an online message board.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your points about lower prices/higher performance is worthy of discussion. But your credibility is low.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Don't waste our time with your bravado.
[ 11-06-2002: Message edited by: jwdawso ]</p>
<strong>
Question is, what happens at the end of 2002 to make Mr. Jobs confident hard times may be over for Apple. Stay tuned
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good question. I always thought he was predicting the end of the recession. It seems most complaints about Apple are performance and price. It looks like performance will be the Mac's advantage once the IBM 970 is in them. But that will not get here until the second half of 2003. So, if there is some extra good news early in 2003, it may be a hot consumer digital devices, or a low cost Mac. If Apple covers the low end somehow, it will keep everybody happy.
I don't believe large numbers are switching from Macs to Windows PCs, but it is happening with people I know. Their reason? It boils down to price, period. They don't need much from a computer and the Windows boxes are just too cheap to resist. People don't see a good reason to pay a lot more for a Mac.
[ 11-06-2002: Message edited by: snoopy ]</p>
The sooner Apple has the 970 the better. Then they can pimp out the Towers with real performance, and the consumer Macs can use the fastest G4s without treading on Powermac specs. Until then, Apple is literally playing with dynamite. It won't take much for Apple's base to erode right out from underneath them while they dick around with the 970.
Still, Macs could be cheaper. The LCD iMac in particular is way overpriced. It's my guess that Apple released the G4 iMac planning on a drop in LCD prices, and instead they got sacked with a rise. The G4 iMac should really cost about the same as the old, from $999 to $1499.
The eMac is totally overpriced, with that old CRT it should be $800-$1000.
The G3 iMac should be $600, tops--Apple must be making those for nearly nothing.
The towers are overpriced, but Apple needs to keep their margins somewhere. What I'd love to see is a consumer tower, but it's very likely that such a computer would eat into Powermac sales. I'm sure that's why Apple's only shot at one, the Cube, was so overpriced. If the Cube had cost what it SHOULD have, $999, then only an idiot would have bought an iMac or Tower unless they needed the expandability.
It is interesting that only certain Mac users are switching, based on those I know. Most were owners of 68K Macs, and one had a Performa 6400, which they gave to the kids. The one who I believe is thinking hard about switching owns one of the first PPC Macs, a 6100 or some such number. The others own newer Macs, and from what I can tell would not even consider switching. So, what does that really tell us? Maybe I jumped to the wrong conclusion about low cost Macs, but I don't think so. To folks who are getting by with a very old Mac, a new Windows PC looks far better at a low price.<hr></blockquote>
Hmmm, you may be on to something here.
Those Mac users still running ancient hardware are doing so because they don't do much with their computers. Web, email, some word processing. So for them, XP is "good enough" to get by.
OTOH, the Mac users upgrading every couple of years or so, are actually USING their Macs, and are more likely to want to keep current, AND more likely to stick with the Mac because they know what they are doing and they know that Windows is just not the same.
Performance Switchers: The people who jumped on the mac bandwagon back at the G3 was eating the Pentium II for lunch, for them the thrill has worn off, and they want to be able to say they have the fastest PC on the market.
Disgruntled Switchers: This group covers alot of the publishing industy and education, they are switching because they are pissed off with Apple. Their primary complaint is they feel Mac OS X is being forced upon them like a drunk prom date and they don't want it. In publishing and education alot of their core applications aren't now and never will be supported in Mac OS X, yet are supported in Windows
Price Switchers: This is the largest group by far, they look at what Apple is offering, then they look at what every other vendor is offering for the fraction of the price, for them it is no contest, "700mhz eMac or 2.4ghz Pentium 4 for the same price... hmm"
Education can also be lumped into the price switchers catagory
Their agrument is they already have a cheap Open source UNIX that runs on their Mac, so OS X means little to them. For them it is strickly the Hardware performance/price ratio that has them switch.
** To some (myself included), OS X has become just another UNIX window manager **
The truth is, apples future is solid in the short term. They have enough leg to keep inovating for at least another 3 years even if things continue to not go their way. However, i think things will turn around pretty soon. The new laptops are an indication of that.
Macs do provide good value. The equipment is well made, support is great(rated best by PC magazine), total cost of ownership is low, reliability is very good and OS X is fantastic. Seems I recall Forbes and other mainstream press showing that the iBook and iMac were less expensive than similarly equipped pcs. Forbes just announced the Ti PowerBook as the nearly perfect laptop(before today's price drops and the upgrade to 1GHz).
On the other hand, while the value may be high so is the absolute price. Apple either can't or doesn't want to provide a system for roughly $600. It doesn't matter whether computers at this level are junk or not. Some people just don't look at anything over a certain price. Also, some people don't want clever designs. They just want a plain vanilla computer in a simple box that they can type on. If I needed to stock a room with computers and people on phones answering questions from a FMP database there would be little need for FW, superdrives, Aqua, iMovie and so on. For those with simple budgets or simple needs Apple no longer supplies a solution. Actually, the gumdrop iMac was a good solution but it is not promoted and is now a little stale.
I don't know enough about manufacturing and pricing to judge whether Apple should enter the low end or not. Some post about 2.4GHz P4s selling for $699. If those are so wonderful then why do other people pay over $2,000 or $3,000 or more for other designs of 2.4GHz P4s? It doesn't add up.