Trace the line of it's celebration? Based, yes, on Swahili ceremonies, but basically invented by Maulana Karenga for the benefit of dissafected African-Americans, it's links to Africa are a sham, it is a purely American invention marketed as an African celebration. It is revisionistic in it's implication that it is itself a long tradition of African importance, when clearly real "Africans" could give a shit. That's like me inventing a holiday and saying that it's been practiced for years.
They're hardly the only guilty ones, the Jehova's witnesses like to revise history at will, aswell. Though they began their shennanigans in the early 20th century they've grown fond of appropriating noteable figures that died long before anyone got that particularly idiotic idea in their head.
I don't mind Quanza, just pointing out that if schools make room for it, and they do, then they ought to make room for something of considerably greater history and cultural importance too.
A) It is NOT based on Swahilli ceremonies. Karenga himself writes that it is based on general practices all over Africa. Not any one specific group. And compentent Anthropologist who has studied the various cultures of Africa would agree.
Swahilli was chosen because it is the largest non-European and Non-Arabic language spoken on the Continent.
C) Only uninformed, folllow the crowd, people do not know that yes it is an American made ( as in created here) celebration. That does not make it revisionist at all. For something to be revisionist, It must have taken a known thing and attempted to change it. Kwanzaa does not do any such thing. There are no hidden agendas. No "let's deny there was a Holocaust" type of ideology behind it.
You sir are extremely mis-informed about the topic.
It's supposed to make you feel more African, more African American, and it does strongly imply that it originates in an authentic way from Africa. That's the revision, that it implies autheticity when there isn't any. It's not an ugly agenda like that of a holocaust denier, but it is keenly political while masquerading as cultural. It should be a parade, not a holiday, though I suppose with time, it stakes a legitimacy of it's own.
Kwanzaa is not revsionist at all. Where are you getting this idea from?
WHAT THE HECK?!
Kwanzaa was dreamt up about 30-40 years ago by a black-power Marxist nut.
As for the term "African American"---are the indigenous peoples of Egypt, and the rest of North Africa "African-Americans"? When someone from Morocco moves to Italy does that make them African-Italian?
Kwanzaa was dreamt up about 30-40 years ago by a black-power Marxist nut.
As for the term "African American"---are the indigenous peoples of Egypt, and the rest of North Africa "African-Americans"? When someone from Morocco moves to Italy does that make them African-Italian?
Sondjata, i know the pinciples about the main religions as i learned them (as "observative" position to anything but christianity that was teached as the "truth") so when i deal e.g. with hindus, muslims etc i know at least what they believe in, what are the reincarnations, which aren't supposed to eat what and when, what is ramadan etc. But i NEVER had heard about kwanzaa untill today. in europe it does not exist. so i googled for it 5 minutes ago, and found good and interesting information.
Here in US - and in northern europe too - Africa seems to be misunderstood sometimes as ONLY black africa. north africans are not black. and black is not always black, so some people with really white ('mild coffee smoothie') skin tonalities define themselves as 'black'... i would rather define the colors that are brown as "brown", when only the really black blacks (e.g, i'd probably include most of the somalians under the category "brown") would be black ... I would never call a Moroccan emigrant in Italy as an Afro-Italian. If he was himself an emigrant, he'd be just a guy originating from Morocco. If his kids instead were born in Italy, his kids were simply Italians. For me, anyone of Chilean, Pakistani, Bangladesh, anywhere Africa originating parents but themselves BORN e.g. in Sweden, are Swedish, period.
I would never call a Moroccan emigrant in Italy as an Afro-Italian. If he was himself an emigrant, he'd be just a guy originating from Morocco. If his kids instead were born in Italy, his kids were simply Italians. For me, anyone of Chilean, Pakistani, Bangladesh, anywhere Africa originating parents but themselves BORN e.g. in Sweden, are Swedish, period.
As nice as that would be, I think ethnic background is as important for a persons identity as citizenship, or even more.
It would really be up to that person to define himself or herself.
I know many norwegians with pakistani ethnicity that call themselves pakistani-norwegian. I have no problem with that.
Matsu: I repeat you are woefuylly mis-informed on this subject. And it seems that mis-information is self imposed. Needless to say, you telling me about kwanzaa is like me tellign steve jobs about how apple is run.
Ena: And America was founded by White supremacist, genocidal maniacs. What's your point?
Giagura: There are people in Europe who do celebrate the "holiday." Though I wound not expect it to be widespread. Kwanzaa is not, and has never been, and will never be a religious holiday> Even Dr. Karenga, it's creator says so.
As nice as that would be, I think ethnic background is as important for a persons identity as citizenship, or even more.
It would really be up to that person to define himself or herself.
I know many norwegians with pakistani ethnicity that call themselves pakistani-norwegian. I have no problem with that.
I think people are what they define themselves to be.
Anyone born in Italy gets it's citizenship. Anyone born in US get US citizenship etc. Anyone born in Sweden i guess similarly gets the Swedish citizenship. UK is full of e.g. Indians, and when i see anyone Indian looking even in US, i think they are British...
when do the "roots" go off? if many indian british came to UK over 100 years ago, are their kids still "indian" if they haven't ever been to india?
why do so many americans define themselvs as something they are not? "i am 25 % of irish, 25 % polish, 25 % mexican and 25 % african" etc. have you ever been to those countries you state yourself being from? do you speak the languages the people in "your country" speak? why are YOU something if some of you grand or grand-grand-etc parents were something?
i am nothing. i don't know even my grandparents or who they were. i hate people trying to "discover" their family and roots, and i have forbidden "researching" me for the "roots" purpose. what my grandparents were has nothing to do with what i am or where i am or what i'll be in my life. for being born somewhere and having lived somewhere i should define me with those places, but i don't want to, and it bugs me off when people insist on stamping the people for "understanding" how the others are. i have most of the time difficulties understanding "my people" because i have not been stuck in one rotten part of the world for all my life.
Yes, but if they ask a child, what are you thankful for, ahd the child says Jesus, they should NOT tell him he cant do that.. that is bs, weather Christian, Muslim, atheist, whatever, I can understand the school not teaching religion, but this is a pile of shit. if the kid said "I am thankful for Santa Clause" I bet the school would have no problem would they?
That part I'm not upset about. I'm upset about the reading of the bible in class to the five year olds. He can draw whatever the **** he wants.
Just because the gov't foots the bill doesn't mean we should automatically equivocate in the form "public school equals government/state."
Schools are in the education business, not the policy or enforcement business. They have a mandate to teach, not enforce or rule. If they have a mandate to teach only what the state/government should practice, they become mere agents of the state. Your secular ideal is quite vulnerable to being merely a pawn of the state. For me they should teach as completely and responsibly as they can, that involves the predominant beliefs/practices of the people, major traditions, new (topical) developments and dissenting voices. This is the information, not a mandate.
To me, a mandate to teach aswell as a duty to foster the growth of students within their culture means that you have to learn about what they practice and make a safe environment for them to do it, and work HARD to maintain care and flexibility as communities grow and change, so that what you present also grows and changes.
A crucifix should not offend anyone any more than anyone else's religious symbols, and students have a right to present those ideas to their peers for equal consideration, and not be shouted down for being, oddly enough, popular, as much as they should not be shouted down for being unpopular.
I find exceedingly odd that public schools censure Christmas pageants while promoting revisionist BS holidays like Quanza, or is the esteem of Black children specifically more important than that of Christian children?
Agendas never disappear, by trying harder to include religion it makes it harder for anti-whomever agandas to hide behind a pretence of seperation of church and state, one whose application in the case of schools is weak to begin with.
There are people in Europe who do celebrate the "holiday." Though I wound not expect it to be widespread. Kwanzaa is not, and has never been, and will never be a religious holiday> Even Dr. Karenga, it's creator says so.
I had never heard about it. I learned as i said, the principles the main religions, their habits, beliefs etc in the most annoying subject in school - the religious teachings. In europe - i believe it still works so - your parents decide what you believe in, untill you are 18. (when i was 18 and 1 day old, i walked to the church registry offices etc, and signed me off anything religious.) well - the word "kwanzaa" was never included in that or any other subject, and in UK whilst working with african emigrants, many celebrated (or had? which is better as word?) ramadan, and i talked about ramadan with them - but none of them either said ever the word kwanzaa. maybe this year i'll see something a bit more about it.
A child who uses his education to produce a religious product has as much right as a child who uses his education to produce something of secular value.
No argument.
Quote:
Which is why public schools should make room for religious content as students deliver it, the students do not serve the public, they are served by the public and entitled to equal time for even unpopular speech (which this might be).
No argument with the usual caveats. A student can have as much religious content as they want in their products. But if their products uses state power as a coercive effect, then there are problems. For example, the Sante Fe, TX student-led pre-football game prayer of the PA system, which as I recall was a sectarian conflict (one Christian sect didn't like the other's prayer) as well as a secular one, was banned by the courts. If something is displayed on a wall or was an oral report, it should be allowed.
That part I'm not upset about. I'm upset about the reading of the bible in class to the five year olds. He can draw whatever the **** he wants.
i am upset that i was told about any religious craps in media 2-3 hours a week since i was kid, to untill 18 or so, in the public schools. i never believed in any of those craps, so studying the church history etc, useless and meaningless religious habits for so many hours for so many years, was a real pain in the apple. no wonder getting my name out of the church registries to free me finally from that nightmare the first possible day it was possible (=as soon as i was 18). enough!! teach BRIEFLY for the kids what the main religions - ALL of them - are, but don't spoon feed the religion that much - i hope this is happening only in europe. it is unfair my parents can decide what i'm supposed to believe in untill i'm 18, and how i'm supposed to study that religion as the "truth". enough!
I had never heard about it. I learned as i said, the principles the main religions, their habits, beliefs etc in the most annoying subject in school - the religious teachings. In europe - i believe it still works so - your parents decide what you believe in, untill you are 18. (when i was 18 and 1 day old, i walked to the church registry offices etc, and signed me off anything religious.) well - the word "kwanzaa" was never included in that or any other subject, and in UK whilst working with african emigrants, many celebrated (or had? which is better as word?) ramadan, and i talked about ramadan with them - but none of them either said ever the word kwanzaa. maybe this year i'll see something a bit more about it.
Right, The africans you spoke to were Muslims and therefore did the fast. What kwanzaa does is take the traditional celebrations of the harvests ( such as those practiced by The Assante, Igbos, etc. and) fashioned a "holiday" around it. So that your African aquaintances never heard of Kwanzaa. Is to be expected. Though Any African from Tanzania, Kenya, or Malawi, should be familiar with the word since Kwanzaa is a Ki-Swahilli word.
What you should ask, especially of those from Rural backgrounds, and those who do not practice imported religions ( read;Christianity and Islam), is what traditional celebrations do they do.
Also, don't take your average African's word when it comes to knowledge of traditional history or even current events. I attempted to discuss the recent passing of Babatunde Olatunji with a fellow Yoruba, who drew a complete blank on who he was.
Many of them were from Northern Africa (e.g. Morocco, Libya and Egypt), some from Somalia and Eritrea, a few from Senegal and South Africa ... none of those zones where the 'non-imported' religions still exist (as far as i know). Those would sure be interesting.
Do you celebrate kwanzaa, Sondjata? I think I'm curious to know a bit more about it.
Now we're getting somewhere. Quanza is a branding of "authenticity" for the sake of Americans who have absolutely no authentic investment in "Africa." It's more of a cultural revitalization project than actually a celebration. AS practiced in the unpolluted communities of Africa, the various indegenous harvest celebrations packaged into American Kwanza certainly have a historical and cultural reach and sustained line, but American blacks are bastards.
This is the immigrant dilemma I understand all too well for I myself am nothing (nationally speaking) I feel neither deeply Canadian, nor do I feel European, I speak English now, but had a different childhood language, and my parents spoke differently, my attitudes are a hybrid of places, but do belong in either of the dominant settings of my life. I am alone but for a class of people like me, bastards.
Like Blacks in America, who ceased to be African a long time ago and cannot really choose to be African again even if it would bring them great pride. They did not come by choice, but unhappy circumstances do not change the present reality. Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
An average (at least north) european seems to think africans are black, in south they know that not all africans are that, but even they tend to think then that all europeans are white...
Like Blacks in America, who ceased to be African a long time ago and cannot really choose to be African again even if it would bring them great pride. They did not come by choice, but unhappy circumstances do not change the present reality. Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
See what i mean with those "i am polish, danish, irish and italian" things about the white Americans as well? If you did not grow up _yourself_ in ALL of those places, didn't learn the habits and languages by living THERE as a child, YOU are NOT from there even if you drank guinness and ate pickles on your pizza and smorrebrod. If you were born in US, you are from here.
Now we're getting somewhere. Quanza is a branding of "authenticity" for the sake of Americans who have absolutely no authentic investment in "Africa." It's more of a cultural revitalization project than actually a celebration. AS practiced in the unpolluted communities of Africa, the various indegenous harvest celebrations packaged into American Kwanza certainly have a historical and cultural reach and sustained line, but American blacks are bastards.
This is the immigrant dilemma I understand all too well for I myself am nothing (nationally speaking) I feel neither deeply Canadian, nor do I feel European, I speak English now, but had a different childhood language, and my parents spoke differently, my attitudes are a hybrid of places, but do belong in either of the dominant settings of my life. I am alone but for a class of people like me, bastards.
Like Blacks in America, who ceased to be African a long time ago and cannot really choose to be African again even if it would bring them great pride. They did not come by choice, but unhappy circumstances do not change the present reality. Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
It's about creating identity where there is a lack there of. By calling it revisionist your implying that it is somehow more false. If you have nothing against it, then why the hostility?
There's a bunch of americans celebrating the 17th of may in Little Norway, Minnesota and many more researching their ancestors. Its almost the same thing.
Easter and Christmas. Now, those are some revisionist celebrations. The christians just took them over and re-defined them.
Comments
Originally posted by Matsu
Trace the line of it's celebration? Based, yes, on Swahili ceremonies, but basically invented by Maulana Karenga for the benefit of dissafected African-Americans, it's links to Africa are a sham, it is a purely American invention marketed as an African celebration. It is revisionistic in it's implication that it is itself a long tradition of African importance, when clearly real "Africans" could give a shit. That's like me inventing a holiday and saying that it's been practiced for years.
They're hardly the only guilty ones, the Jehova's witnesses like to revise history at will, aswell. Though they began their shennanigans in the early 20th century they've grown fond of appropriating noteable figures that died long before anyone got that particularly idiotic idea in their head.
I don't mind Quanza, just pointing out that if schools make room for it, and they do, then they ought to make room for something of considerably greater history and cultural importance too.
A) It is NOT based on Swahilli ceremonies. Karenga himself writes that it is based on general practices all over Africa. Not any one specific group. And compentent Anthropologist who has studied the various cultures of Africa would agree.
C) Only uninformed, folllow the crowd, people do not know that yes it is an American made ( as in created here) celebration. That does not make it revisionist at all. For something to be revisionist, It must have taken a known thing and attempted to change it. Kwanzaa does not do any such thing. There are no hidden agendas. No "let's deny there was a Holocaust" type of ideology behind it.
You sir are extremely mis-informed about the topic.
Originally posted by Sondjata
Kwanzaa is not revsionist at all. Where are you getting this idea from?
WHAT THE HECK?!
Kwanzaa was dreamt up about 30-40 years ago by a black-power Marxist nut.
As for the term "African American"---are the indigenous peoples of Egypt, and the rest of North Africa "African-Americans"? When someone from Morocco moves to Italy does that make them African-Italian?
Originally posted by ena
When someone from Morocco moves to Italy does that make them African-Italian?
The childeren would be.
stop being a jerk
edit: moroccan-italian would be more correct.
Originally posted by ena
WHAT THE HECK?!
Kwanzaa was dreamt up about 30-40 years ago by a black-power Marxist nut.
As for the term "African American"---are the indigenous peoples of Egypt, and the rest of North Africa "African-Americans"? When someone from Morocco moves to Italy does that make them African-Italian?
Sondjata, i know the pinciples about the main religions as i learned them (as "observative" position to anything but christianity that was teached as the "truth") so when i deal e.g. with hindus, muslims etc i know at least what they believe in, what are the reincarnations, which aren't supposed to eat what and when, what is ramadan etc. But i NEVER had heard about kwanzaa untill today. in europe it does not exist. so i googled for it 5 minutes ago, and found good and interesting information.
Here in US - and in northern europe too - Africa seems to be misunderstood sometimes as ONLY black africa. north africans are not black. and black is not always black, so some people with really white ('mild coffee smoothie') skin tonalities define themselves as 'black'... i would rather define the colors that are brown as "brown", when only the really black blacks (e.g, i'd probably include most of the somalians under the category "brown") would be black ... I would never call a Moroccan emigrant in Italy as an Afro-Italian. If he was himself an emigrant, he'd be just a guy originating from Morocco. If his kids instead were born in Italy, his kids were simply Italians. For me, anyone of Chilean, Pakistani, Bangladesh, anywhere Africa originating parents but themselves BORN e.g. in Sweden, are Swedish, period.
Originally posted by Giaguara
I would never call a Moroccan emigrant in Italy as an Afro-Italian. If he was himself an emigrant, he'd be just a guy originating from Morocco. If his kids instead were born in Italy, his kids were simply Italians. For me, anyone of Chilean, Pakistani, Bangladesh, anywhere Africa originating parents but themselves BORN e.g. in Sweden, are Swedish, period.
As nice as that would be, I think ethnic background is as important for a persons identity as citizenship, or even more.
It would really be up to that person to define himself or herself.
I know many norwegians with pakistani ethnicity that call themselves pakistani-norwegian. I have no problem with that.
Ena: And America was founded by White supremacist, genocidal maniacs. What's your point?
Giagura: There are people in Europe who do celebrate the "holiday." Though I wound not expect it to be widespread. Kwanzaa is not, and has never been, and will never be a religious holiday> Even Dr. Karenga, it's creator says so.
Originally posted by New
As nice as that would be, I think ethnic background is as important for a persons identity as citizenship, or even more.
It would really be up to that person to define himself or herself.
I know many norwegians with pakistani ethnicity that call themselves pakistani-norwegian. I have no problem with that.
I think people are what they define themselves to be.
Anyone born in Italy gets it's citizenship. Anyone born in US get US citizenship etc. Anyone born in Sweden i guess similarly gets the Swedish citizenship. UK is full of e.g. Indians, and when i see anyone Indian looking even in US, i think they are British...
when do the "roots" go off? if many indian british came to UK over 100 years ago, are their kids still "indian" if they haven't ever been to india?
why do so many americans define themselvs as something they are not? "i am 25 % of irish, 25 % polish, 25 % mexican and 25 % african" etc. have you ever been to those countries you state yourself being from? do you speak the languages the people in "your country" speak? why are YOU something if some of you grand or grand-grand-etc parents were something?
i am nothing. i don't know even my grandparents or who they were. i hate people trying to "discover" their family and roots, and i have forbidden "researching" me for the "roots" purpose. what my grandparents were has nothing to do with what i am or where i am or what i'll be in my life. for being born somewhere and having lived somewhere i should define me with those places, but i don't want to, and it bugs me off when people insist on stamping the people for "understanding" how the others are. i have most of the time difficulties understanding "my people" because i have not been stuck in one rotten part of the world for all my life.
i hate my skin color.
Originally posted by The General
Yes, but if they ask a child, what are you thankful for, ahd the child says Jesus, they should NOT tell him he cant do that.. that is bs, weather Christian, Muslim, atheist, whatever, I can understand the school not teaching religion, but this is a pile of shit. if the kid said "I am thankful for Santa Clause" I bet the school would have no problem would they?
That part I'm not upset about. I'm upset about the reading of the bible in class to the five year olds. He can draw whatever the **** he wants.
Originally posted by Matsu
Just because the gov't foots the bill doesn't mean we should automatically equivocate in the form "public school equals government/state."
Schools are in the education business, not the policy or enforcement business. They have a mandate to teach, not enforce or rule. If they have a mandate to teach only what the state/government should practice, they become mere agents of the state. Your secular ideal is quite vulnerable to being merely a pawn of the state. For me they should teach as completely and responsibly as they can, that involves the predominant beliefs/practices of the people, major traditions, new (topical) developments and dissenting voices. This is the information, not a mandate.
To me, a mandate to teach aswell as a duty to foster the growth of students within their culture means that you have to learn about what they practice and make a safe environment for them to do it, and work HARD to maintain care and flexibility as communities grow and change, so that what you present also grows and changes.
A crucifix should not offend anyone any more than anyone else's religious symbols, and students have a right to present those ideas to their peers for equal consideration, and not be shouted down for being, oddly enough, popular, as much as they should not be shouted down for being unpopular.
I find exceedingly odd that public schools censure Christmas pageants while promoting revisionist BS holidays like Quanza, or is the esteem of Black children specifically more important than that of Christian children?
Agendas never disappear, by trying harder to include religion it makes it harder for anti-whomever agandas to hide behind a pretence of seperation of church and state, one whose application in the case of schools is weak to begin with.
FIVE YEAR OLDS. CONTEXT. Come on.
Originally posted by Sondjata
There are people in Europe who do celebrate the "holiday." Though I wound not expect it to be widespread. Kwanzaa is not, and has never been, and will never be a religious holiday> Even Dr. Karenga, it's creator says so.
I had never heard about it. I learned as i said, the principles the main religions, their habits, beliefs etc in the most annoying subject in school - the religious teachings. In europe - i believe it still works so - your parents decide what you believe in, untill you are 18. (when i was 18 and 1 day old, i walked to the church registry offices etc, and signed me off anything religious.) well - the word "kwanzaa" was never included in that or any other subject, and in UK whilst working with african emigrants, many celebrated (or had? which is better as word?) ramadan, and i talked about ramadan with them - but none of them either said ever the word kwanzaa. maybe this year i'll see something a bit more about it.
Originally posted by Matsu
A child who uses his education to produce a religious product has as much right as a child who uses his education to produce something of secular value.
No argument.
Which is why public schools should make room for religious content as students deliver it, the students do not serve the public, they are served by the public and entitled to equal time for even unpopular speech (which this might be).
No argument with the usual caveats. A student can have as much religious content as they want in their products. But if their products uses state power as a coercive effect, then there are problems. For example, the Sante Fe, TX student-led pre-football game prayer of the PA system, which as I recall was a sectarian conflict (one Christian sect didn't like the other's prayer) as well as a secular one, was banned by the courts. If something is displayed on a wall or was an oral report, it should be allowed.
Originally posted by BR
That part I'm not upset about. I'm upset about the reading of the bible in class to the five year olds. He can draw whatever the **** he wants.
i am upset that i was told about any religious craps in media 2-3 hours a week since i was kid, to untill 18 or so, in the public schools. i never believed in any of those craps, so studying the church history etc, useless and meaningless religious habits for so many hours for so many years, was a real pain in the apple. no wonder getting my name out of the church registries to free me finally from that nightmare the first possible day it was possible (=as soon as i was 18). enough!! teach BRIEFLY for the kids what the main religions - ALL of them - are, but don't spoon feed the religion that much - i hope this is happening only in europe. it is unfair my parents can decide what i'm supposed to believe in untill i'm 18, and how i'm supposed to study that religion as the "truth". enough!
Originally posted by Giaguara
I had never heard about it. I learned as i said, the principles the main religions, their habits, beliefs etc in the most annoying subject in school - the religious teachings. In europe - i believe it still works so - your parents decide what you believe in, untill you are 18. (when i was 18 and 1 day old, i walked to the church registry offices etc, and signed me off anything religious.) well - the word "kwanzaa" was never included in that or any other subject, and in UK whilst working with african emigrants, many celebrated (or had? which is better as word?) ramadan, and i talked about ramadan with them - but none of them either said ever the word kwanzaa. maybe this year i'll see something a bit more about it.
Right, The africans you spoke to were Muslims and therefore did the fast. What kwanzaa does is take the traditional celebrations of the harvests ( such as those practiced by The Assante, Igbos, etc. and) fashioned a "holiday" around it. So that your African aquaintances never heard of Kwanzaa. Is to be expected. Though Any African from Tanzania, Kenya, or Malawi, should be familiar with the word since Kwanzaa is a Ki-Swahilli word.
What you should ask, especially of those from Rural backgrounds, and those who do not practice imported religions ( read;Christianity and Islam), is what traditional celebrations do they do.
Also, don't take your average African's word when it comes to knowledge of traditional history or even current events. I attempted to discuss the recent passing of Babatunde Olatunji with a fellow Yoruba, who drew a complete blank on who he was.
Do you celebrate kwanzaa, Sondjata? I think I'm curious to know a bit more about it.
Originally posted by Giaguara
I think people are what they define themselves to be.
They sure are, but some context usually helps.
This is the immigrant dilemma I understand all too well for I myself am nothing (nationally speaking) I feel neither deeply Canadian, nor do I feel European, I speak English now, but had a different childhood language, and my parents spoke differently, my attitudes are a hybrid of places, but do belong in either of the dominant settings of my life. I am alone but for a class of people like me, bastards.
Like Blacks in America, who ceased to be African a long time ago and cannot really choose to be African again even if it would bring them great pride. They did not come by choice, but unhappy circumstances do not change the present reality. Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
Originally posted by Matsu
Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
An average (at least north) european seems to think africans are black, in south they know that not all africans are that, but even they tend to think then that all europeans are white...
Originally posted by Matsu
Like Blacks in America, who ceased to be African a long time ago and cannot really choose to be African again even if it would bring them great pride. They did not come by choice, but unhappy circumstances do not change the present reality. Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
See what i mean with those "i am polish, danish, irish and italian" things about the white Americans as well? If you did not grow up _yourself_ in ALL of those places, didn't learn the habits and languages by living THERE as a child, YOU are NOT from there even if you drank guinness and ate pickles on your pizza and smorrebrod. If you were born in US, you are from here.
Originally posted by Matsu
Now we're getting somewhere. Quanza is a branding of "authenticity" for the sake of Americans who have absolutely no authentic investment in "Africa." It's more of a cultural revitalization project than actually a celebration. AS practiced in the unpolluted communities of Africa, the various indegenous harvest celebrations packaged into American Kwanza certainly have a historical and cultural reach and sustained line, but American blacks are bastards.
This is the immigrant dilemma I understand all too well for I myself am nothing (nationally speaking) I feel neither deeply Canadian, nor do I feel European, I speak English now, but had a different childhood language, and my parents spoke differently, my attitudes are a hybrid of places, but do belong in either of the dominant settings of my life. I am alone but for a class of people like me, bastards.
Like Blacks in America, who ceased to be African a long time ago and cannot really choose to be African again even if it would bring them great pride. They did not come by choice, but unhappy circumstances do not change the present reality. Calling your average American black an "African" is scarely more legitmate than calling me black! It's pageantry, wishful, but not culture.
It's about creating identity where there is a lack there of. By calling it revisionist your implying that it is somehow more false. If you have nothing against it, then why the hostility?
There's a bunch of americans celebrating the 17th of may in Little Norway, Minnesota and many more researching their ancestors. Its almost the same thing.
Easter and Christmas. Now, those are some revisionist celebrations. The christians just took them over and re-defined them.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.