It's price/options ratio. We living in a world where cpu is nothing but a piece of expensive silicon in itself and clock speed is how fast you can flip switches.
It will all depend on apple's market people satistics. What's hot and what's not and what we can expliot ideal.
Since superdrive is still a hot item, that is an area they will try to upgrade rather then lower prices. Though a year from now might be different.
Graphics cards colarborations have been getting better and with the resent trend, they will probably try to up that, instead of lowering prices.
Finally, since we are talking for "PRO" users here, price is usually second to features. So we'll see the next generation in apple industrial design creativity again. Hot-swap Removable HDs slots like the X-serve?
Oh, an Rendevious to obviously.
When you make $20+ an hour, these things start appealing a lot more then a 1,299 price range. That and you can write it off as a business expenise like I did heh.
<strong>Should you wish to upgrade the GPU or CPU on the iMac, your only option is to throw the whole damn machine and buy a new one. That simply is idiotic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No it's not - iMac for "consumers" that don't upgrade their computers, PowerMac for power users. You pay a bit more, then.
The 17" iMac is apparently selling well (even though it's quite expensive by your standards). Of course everyone would like a PowerMac with 4 970 CPUs at 1.8 ghz selling for 500$ and maybe come with a free 23" TFT, but that aint gonna happen. You have to stay realistic a bit, there. Besides, even if I try to configure myself a decent Athlon box I get over 1,600 $ pretty fast.
If you're cheap, you get some cheap PC, and not a Mac..
I dunno where this idea that consumers don't upgrade their machines comes from. I stopped "upgrading" my PC a couple of years ago, but there were some very key upgrades to it over that time.
It started life as a pentium 75 with a 15" monitor. When 17" monitors became available, I sold the 15 and added a 17" Can't do that on ANY iMac! When the P75/RAM combination started feeling a little sluggish for Internet use, I got the Mobo/CPU swapped out and plugged in my old RAM (board takes both SIMMS and DIMMS). When DIMMS got cheap, I chucked the SIMMS and put in 128MB of DIMMS. When CDrw became affordable, I put in an INTERNAL unit along WITH the read-only optical beside. No messy firewire cases or the extra expense. Again something you can't do with any iMac, and for a while you couldn't do it with any powermac either. Same deal with the extra HDD, I put it in the case, again imposssible on an iMac, if you want to keep the original in there too. After 5 years, when my original 17" died, I got another 17" and I was good to go. Good luck to you when your iMac display dies.
Now I have this AMD300 box with CDrw, 128MB, 8MB video, 2 HDD's, ethernet, that still gets me on the net with plenty of speed and runs all my Office and e-Mail perfectly. It's still in daily use, boots up all the time, never crashes (even under win98SE).
But the point is that every single upgrade was dirt cheap and very easy. Consumer macs don't give any such option. And there are plenty of "consumer" users who do exactly what I did to this machine, not to mention schools and businesses. It's not just obsessive gamers, in the end it turns out to be a very large portion of computer users. Just not mac users, because Apple actively defeats that option where-ever possible.
On one hand there is cheap upgrades for PCs all over the place. The 150 dollar it cost to add a 500 MHz G3 to a 7500/100 get you plenty of PC stuff.
On the other hand I have seen many of my PC friends even some IT pofessionals given up on conflicts betwen current motherboard and the new IDE drive or the new soundcard and the CDRW (even if the combination works OK in an other similar computer). They then give up and buy a new computer.
With things like the 399 dollar Dell computer we are getting close to the disposable computer. This is alos true for Macintoshes. It does not matter if you start with a very upgradeble computer like the Beige G3 or a iMac of the same vintage.
Start with a 1997 G3/233 and get it in OS X shape.
Adding a 500 MHz upgrade and a ATI Radeon 7000 is just the beginning. A bigger HD is needed as well and more RAM and a CDRW and USB FW card and so on.
Add it all up and you are at the cost of a new iMac.
On the PC sure I can toss in a 3GHz P4 in a old ATX tower. That is after replacing the motherboard and the memory. To get it to fly I also have to replace the old slow HD, the slow IDE card, the totaly outdated graphical card and perhaps replacing the CDRW to a fast modern one.
My point is that it might be a nice hobby to do the upgrades and cool to run OS X on a 7300/200. However professionaly it hardly pays to upgrade past a bigger HD or faster graphical card. So adding a thing or to make sense but basically replacing everything is as expensive as getting somthing new.
The trend in the corporate sector is "a PC iMac". To never upgrade the computers and have computers that have everyting on the motherboard, and then replace them frequently. Leasing all PCs and Macs and then replace them every 2-3 years. IT support is a large part of total ownership and that is reduced if you avoid upgraded computers as they generate endless variations.
Back to the 970
Any guess if the 970 will lead to quad CPUs? Perhaps first in the servers and the server version X and then later in high end tower?
I do understand that adding dual CPU support in OS and applications is quite an undertaking. How is going past 2 CPUs compared to that?
970 Towers wish list (apart from givning me one today)
Metalic angular enclosures with venting slots that also doubles as the function of handels. Fontmounted USB and FW ports is a must, iPOD PDAs cameras etc need this! The door and the rest of the current towers layout is brilliant!
<strong>I do understand that adding dual CPU support in OS and applications is quite an undertaking. How is going past 2 CPUs compared to that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
OS X should easily handle more than 2 CPUs. The problem is the "Northbridge" has to connect to every CPU seperately. Remember the 970 doesn't use a bus like the 7455. Instead there is a 2x32-bit point-to-point connection.
BTW I hope we will see a dual memory bus. The 970s will need it!
IBM seems to predict the speed of new chips conservatively . So we should see a 2GHz version from the beginning.
Expect prices to stay at a high level (this is Apple we're talking about) - especially here in Europe
If you upgrade that old ATX case you better find a hell of a heat sink for that 3Ghz P4 and a new power suppy. 105 Watts max for a P4 3Ghz HT is pretty hefty. Makes you wonder what Intel will do in the future to make their chips work in laptops. Just watch those second degree burns on your genitals.
Future Pentiums will require an extra dieselgenerator to supply them with the power they need. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
A special combined offer from Shell and Intel will make it attractive for sure.
All Diesel generators are hotswappable!
You will need Microsoft Diesel for special remote configuration and powermanagement.
Your 5 Ghz Pentium will run like a charm with special chemical ice units to keep it cool! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Anyway enough fooling around!
What I "heard" is that the PowerPC 970 will be more like an "entry level" PowerPC. Just like the 601 CPU was a long time ago. Since Intel released their new Pentium CPU Apple had to get something quick to compete. This was the 601.
What's this stuff about 1000 mhz FSB? Man I would be surprised if Apple would pull that off.
After the 970 is released faster versions (maybe a 975 or 980?) will be on the horizon.
Comments
<strong>
I thought so too, until I saw the insane resale prices of iMac G4's at eBay. No one is going to throw their iMac in the trash.
Insane. You've hit it on the head. That?s the operative word.
mika.
It's price/options ratio. We living in a world where cpu is nothing but a piece of expensive silicon in itself and clock speed is how fast you can flip switches.
It will all depend on apple's market people satistics. What's hot and what's not and what we can expliot ideal.
Since superdrive is still a hot item, that is an area they will try to upgrade rather then lower prices. Though a year from now might be different.
Graphics cards colarborations have been getting better and with the resent trend, they will probably try to up that, instead of lowering prices.
Finally, since we are talking for "PRO" users here, price is usually second to features. So we'll see the next generation in apple industrial design creativity again. Hot-swap Removable HDs slots like the X-serve?
Oh, an Rendevious to obviously.
When you make $20+ an hour, these things start appealing a lot more then a 1,299 price range. That and you can write it off as a business expenise like I did heh.
~Kuku
<strong>Should you wish to upgrade the GPU or CPU on the iMac, your only option is to throw the whole damn machine and buy a new one. That simply is idiotic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No it's not - iMac for "consumers" that don't upgrade their computers, PowerMac for power users. You pay a bit more, then.
The 17" iMac is apparently selling well (even though it's quite expensive by your standards). Of course everyone would like a PowerMac with 4 970 CPUs at 1.8 ghz selling for 500$ and maybe come with a free 23" TFT, but that aint gonna happen. You have to stay realistic a bit, there. Besides, even if I try to configure myself a decent Athlon box I get over 1,600 $ pretty fast.
If you're cheap, you get some cheap PC, and not a Mac..
<strong>
No it's not - iMac for "consumers" that don't upgrade their computers, PowerMac for power users. You pay a bit more, then.
.
.
.
If you're cheap, you get some cheap PC, and not a Mac..</strong><hr></blockquote>
Send that line to Apple's marketing department. Jobs will love you for it.
mika.
It started life as a pentium 75 with a 15" monitor. When 17" monitors became available, I sold the 15 and added a 17" Can't do that on ANY iMac! When the P75/RAM combination started feeling a little sluggish for Internet use, I got the Mobo/CPU swapped out and plugged in my old RAM (board takes both SIMMS and DIMMS). When DIMMS got cheap, I chucked the SIMMS and put in 128MB of DIMMS. When CDrw became affordable, I put in an INTERNAL unit along WITH the read-only optical beside. No messy firewire cases or the extra expense. Again something you can't do with any iMac, and for a while you couldn't do it with any powermac either. Same deal with the extra HDD, I put it in the case, again imposssible on an iMac, if you want to keep the original in there too. After 5 years, when my original 17" died, I got another 17" and I was good to go. Good luck to you when your iMac display dies.
Now I have this AMD300 box with CDrw, 128MB, 8MB video, 2 HDD's, ethernet, that still gets me on the net with plenty of speed and runs all my Office and e-Mail perfectly. It's still in daily use, boots up all the time, never crashes (even under win98SE).
But the point is that every single upgrade was dirt cheap and very easy. Consumer macs don't give any such option. And there are plenty of "consumer" users who do exactly what I did to this machine, not to mention schools and businesses. It's not just obsessive gamers, in the end it turns out to be a very large portion of computer users. Just not mac users, because Apple actively defeats that option where-ever possible.
On one hand there is cheap upgrades for PCs all over the place. The 150 dollar it cost to add a 500 MHz G3 to a 7500/100 get you plenty of PC stuff.
On the other hand I have seen many of my PC friends even some IT pofessionals given up on conflicts betwen current motherboard and the new IDE drive or the new soundcard and the CDRW (even if the combination works OK in an other similar computer). They then give up and buy a new computer.
So there is two sides to every coin
<strong>Can't do that on ANY iMac!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure you can. And you get a free CPU/Mobo/gfxcard/hdd/cdR with the screen, too!
<strong>
Sure you can. And you get a free CPU/Mobo/gfxcard/hdd/cdR with the screen, too!
heheh,.. you forgot the keyboard and mouse..
<strong>heheh,.. you forgot the keyboard and mouse..
Oh, right! And a free copy of OSX!
The lowering of geekiness factor and the expansion of mass.
The ideal that a computer is a component of parts is shrinking into a singalar digital device.
Combine that with the very short lifespan of a computer, and you get low upgrade needs.
We're not talking about computer hobbist here, which know the difference between a slave and a master, or AGP from a PCI.
RAM is about the only thing they can do, and even then people shell the $50 installment fee.
So there is a point where upgrade meets new product.
~Kuku
Start with a 1997 G3/233 and get it in OS X shape.
Adding a 500 MHz upgrade and a ATI Radeon 7000 is just the beginning. A bigger HD is needed as well and more RAM and a CDRW and USB FW card and so on.
Add it all up and you are at the cost of a new iMac.
On the PC sure I can toss in a 3GHz P4 in a old ATX tower. That is after replacing the motherboard and the memory. To get it to fly I also have to replace the old slow HD, the slow IDE card, the totaly outdated graphical card and perhaps replacing the CDRW to a fast modern one.
My point is that it might be a nice hobby to do the upgrades and cool to run OS X on a 7300/200. However professionaly it hardly pays to upgrade past a bigger HD or faster graphical card. So adding a thing or to make sense but basically replacing everything is as expensive as getting somthing new.
The trend in the corporate sector is "a PC iMac". To never upgrade the computers and have computers that have everyting on the motherboard, and then replace them frequently. Leasing all PCs and Macs and then replace them every 2-3 years. IT support is a large part of total ownership and that is reduced if you avoid upgraded computers as they generate endless variations.
Back to the 970
Any guess if the 970 will lead to quad CPUs? Perhaps first in the servers and the server version X and then later in high end tower?
I do understand that adding dual CPU support in OS and applications is quite an undertaking. How is going past 2 CPUs compared to that?
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
970 Towers wish list (apart from givning me one today)
Metalic angular enclosures with venting slots that also doubles as the function of handels. Fontmounted USB and FW ports is a must, iPOD PDAs cameras etc need this! The door and the rest of the current towers layout is brilliant!
<strong>
Oh, right! And a free copy of OSX!
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> :eek:
It's NOT *free*. You're paying for it through the nose..
mika.
[ 11-19-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Single 1.7GHz, Dual 1.8GHz, Dual 2GHz
850, 900, 1000MHz system bus respectively
DDR, DDR-II memory controller with 4 slots
RAM speeds is either PC2700 (333MHz DDR) or PC3200 (400MHz DDR-II)
PCI-X slots replace the PCI64 we have now and
AGP-8x
USB2, Firewire2 at 800Mbps and 1.6Gbps
<strong>I do understand that adding dual CPU support in OS and applications is quite an undertaking. How is going past 2 CPUs compared to that?</strong><hr></blockquote>
OS X should easily handle more than 2 CPUs. The problem is the "Northbridge" has to connect to every CPU seperately. Remember the 970 doesn't use a bus like the 7455. Instead there is a 2x32-bit point-to-point connection.
BTW I hope we will see a dual memory bus. The 970s will need it!
IBM seems to predict the speed of new chips conservatively . So we should see a 2GHz version from the beginning.
Expect prices to stay at a high level (this is Apple we're talking about) - especially here in Europe
A special combined offer from Shell and Intel will make it attractive for sure.
All Diesel generators are hotswappable!
You will need Microsoft Diesel for special remote configuration and powermanagement.
Your 5 Ghz Pentium will run like a charm with special chemical ice units to keep it cool! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Anyway enough fooling around!
What I "heard" is that the PowerPC 970 will be more like an "entry level" PowerPC. Just like the 601 CPU was a long time ago. Since Intel released their new Pentium CPU Apple had to get something quick to compete. This was the 601.
What's this stuff about 1000 mhz FSB? Man I would be surprised if Apple would pull that off.
After the 970 is released faster versions (maybe a 975 or 980?) will be on the horizon.
Just a thought I had...
<strong>I would imagine specs for the first 970 machine to be something like this (if expected around the middle (May-Aug) of the year; fiscal Q3):
Single 1.7GHz, Dual 1.8GHz, Dual 2GHz
850, 900, 1000MHz system bus respectively
DDR, DDR-II memory controller with 4 slots
RAM speeds is either PC2700 (333MHz DDR) or PC3200 (400MHz DDR-II)
PCI-X slots replace the PCI64 we have now and
AGP-8x
USB2, Firewire2 at 800Mbps and 1.6Gbps</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sounds good to me.
I just hope they get the price points right. As in: $999, $1,699, $2,199.
mika.
<strong>
Sounds good to me.
I just hope they get the price points right. As in: $999, $1,699, $2,199.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How much does Yeda add to it these days?
(To have Apple's system specificiation on a par with the competition would not be asking for too much)
Them apples come from the big apple.