Sure Job, because I'm sure going from 5200 to 5600 is gonna raise PMG5 prices dramatically.... uh huh.
This is Apple we're talking about here. God only knows how Apple milks the prices (Apple store RAM anyone?)
And looking at the baseline Alienware tower, it too ships with the 5200. If a user wants a 'pro' card that bad, then I'm sure he/she will be willing to shell out the extra couple hundred.
Quote:
Anyone wanting a DECENT graphics card on low and middle models now has to order straight from Apple and do BTO. Dumb.
Apple's out to make money. The demand for these towers is high and Apple's going to utilize their position. If users want better cards, then they better be prepared to pay for it.
Geez, what a bunch of whiners. Order the 9800 if you want the highest end card -- not everybody is interested in forking out the big bucks for that level of graphics hardware (not that it is really that expensive considering the level of performance you're getting). The 9600 is actually a damn good card, especially when you consider price/performance. DOOM3 is not just GPU bound, so the G5 ought to do pretty damn well w/ ATI9600 in it.
Since the new G5 is using AGP PRO, can it also take a FireGL or Quadro FX? That's what's needed for serious Maya work, which I believe this machine can do if it had the right graphics card.
Carmack has always written for the best hardware that is to be available when his software ships. Doom III is not shipping yet - therefore your argument is pointless.
If you are buying a 1.8 GHz system and not going to play Doom III, I am glad the system is only 2399. The fact that for $50 I can move up to 9600 Pro if I desire it, is ok by me. Beside what ever card Apple put in there Gamers are always going to opt for the best card they can get.
Yeah i did see that you can BTO at 9600 Pro for $50. Thats cool. I guess my issue is thats not what you're gonna see deals on, whats in the stores, what mr mac buyer getting "the worlds fastest computer" is gonna see. You'll have to go to Apple Store and do BTO to get a halfway decent card, and everyone else will STILL be wonderign why (insert game here) doesn't run good at the native resolution on their 17" LCD.
So ummm why wouldn't someone want the "worlds fastest computer" for gaming? Funny how people here is lauging at people wanting to run Doom III on it. If its finally fast enough to be a viable game machine why the hell not?
If you all really wanted it for "work only" then it should have Quadros for the 3-D folks or some crap ass ATI Rage 128 Pro with enough ram to run two monitors for the 2-D folks.
I find it ironic that the use of a "pro" card is to play ****ing video games.
There's no such thing as a pro gamer.
Some people use their computers for work. Those are the pro users. If you aren't producing money by using your computer, you aren't a "pro".
I'm sick of the "consumer" and "pro" bullshit that gets tossed around. 90% of the people buying computers are consumers. And anyone who talks about DOOM III is a consumer. And a ****ing child.
I find it ironic that the use of a "pro" card is to play ****ing video games.
There's no such thing as a pro gamer.
Some people use their computers for work. Those are the pro users. If you aren't producing money by using your computer, you aren't a "pro".
I'm sick of the "consumer" and "pro" bullshit that gets tossed around. 90% of the people buying computers are consumers. And anyone who talks about DOOM III is a consumer. And a ****ing child.
Wow a "****ing child." Thanks. You shouldn't call people, who you don't know, such names. Naughty you.
DOOM is a valid point of reference for rating a gpu's performance nearly as much as 3DMark. Anyway, Maya among other apps would also benefit from a higher end card with both the RAMDAC and the core chip @ 500 or 450Mhz instead of a paltry, midrange level, 350MHz. It's an insult to the "World's Fastest Desktop Computer" to be inferior in the gpu department.
Geez, the FX5200 is nVidia's low range card, costing less than a 100$ with it's perfomance being complimentary to this. It would ship in a sub 1500$ wintel box.
Better to ship with a "decent" video card, that way those who don't need better don't have to pay. If someone want's a better video card, they can BTO it. What the hell is the problem?
Maybe some people here have only short-term memory, but I remember a time when high-end video cards weren't even an OPTION on Macs, at any price. It's actually pretty damn cool that one can order a Powermac G5 with the best gaming video cards on the market for either Wintel or Mac.
As for Doom 3, if Apple/IBM keep pushing the PMG5's mobo/cpu design, then we can expect it to perform considerably better on Mac. In such a case quite a few hard-core gamers will be buying these Powermacs, ordering the high-end video cards. Maybe with the extra volume prices will drop--there's something to look forward to.
I do think they should have some 'pro' cards available for the fastest personal computer in the world, why limit pro users to consumer cards? A BTO Quadro/FireGL option would be good.
What is more dissapointing though is the use of the FX5200. It would have been better if they could have at least used the Radeon 9200 instead. The FX5200 doesn't even have the performance of a GF4 Ti4200 or a GF3 Ti200. It is the GF4 MX420 of next generation graphics cards. The only word to describe the card is cr4p.
And really it is not about gaming; the FX5200 is a poor quality graphics card for both 2d and 3d. As I said the Radeon 9200 would have been a much better option and I think it should be expected that Apple should provide quality components right though its top machines.
I find it ironic that the use of a "pro" card is to play ****ing video games.
There's no such thing as a pro gamer.
Some people use their computers for work. Those are the pro users. If you aren't producing money by using your computer, you aren't a "pro".
I'm sick of the "consumer" and "pro" bullshit that gets tossed around. 90% of the people buying computers are consumers. And anyone who talks about DOOM III is a consumer. And a ****ing child.
Don't be a momo. Its just the way the vid card companies market their cards. "consumer" cards are the low end, being things like the various nVidia MX's and now the 5200. For people who don't want to spend a lot of money. Typically these are crippled in some way compared to the standard chip (ie nVidia 5600) which costs a little bit more and generally offers the best bang for the buck. And then there's the big daddy that costs way to much money except for those who desire that "extra 8fps" as Alcimedes puts it. Which by the way shows that Alicimedes doesnt know much about the difference in Graphic card performance these days :P Trust me you're gonna see a big diff between a GF FX 5200 and a GF FX 5600 (or an ATI 9600 Pro).
The real "pro" cards are stuff like Quadros and that *would* really raise PMG5 prices. I think those of us criticizing are just amazed that Apple would pair a low-end crippled card with the new wicked-fast PMG5s.
I know we all love dumb car metaphors, so it's like your Ferrari coming with cheap all-weather tires instead of high performance Pirelli tires. :P
I know we all love dumb car metaphors, so it's like your Ferrari coming with cheap all-weather tires instead of high performance Pirelli tires. :P
I confirm : it's a dumb analogy, without proper tires ,the car will crash at the first serious sportive turn.
The radeon 9600 pro is not a bad card and cost only 50 bucks more than the geforce 5200. Those who are concerned by a decent card should BTO one.
In an another way some people who will buy a tower for server will find that the geforce 5200 is a waste of money : that's why some PC constructors offer a rage 128 8 MB video card. I think that it's the way to make happy, buyers of big corps, who think they have saved money because the PC is filled with the crappiest thing in the market
Quote:
The real "pro" cards are stuff like Quadros and that *would* really raise PMG5 prices. I think those of us criticizing are just amazed that Apple would pair a low-end crippled card with the new wicked-fast PMG5s.
Pro Cards are essentially cards with pro drivers. The hardware of the cards have nothing special compared to the consumers counterpart. A radeon 9800 pro certainly beat most of the quadro cards in 3 D.
Improving 3 D for macs requiere a lot of improvement in open GL with new fonctions requiered by 3 D professional modeling.
its just unfortunate that buying BTO from Apple store is usually far more costly than getting one of the various deals from online retailers. That $50 will turn into $250 when you figure in tax and how you're not getting that extra ram or printer or whatever they happen to offer.
My fastest machine is a 3.0GHz Intel P4, with the 800Mhz FSB, 1.5GB 3200 DDR SDRAM, 2x120GB Western Digital HD on 133/ATA, is running the nVidia FX5800 (the "duster"). Built it myself for roughly 2000$.
Built it yourself eh?
I take it that it does'nt have that ever so important "workstation credential" either?
I know we all love dumb car metaphors, so it's like your Ferrari coming with cheap all-weather tires instead of high performance Pirelli tires. :P
hmm... in Europe, people will put snow tires on ugly black rims on their sports cars so they can drive them in winter.
Anyway, why is the glass half-empty? Apple can't target gamers for the PMG5 (yet), so they give a video card for the guys doing Photoshop. As an added bonus, those who find that lacking can get a 9800 Pro. Isn't that A Good Thing™?
Comments
Originally posted by Ti Fighter
You can get the ATI 9800 Pro BTO with any of these machine, so your only complaint it that of price.
Exactly.
Originally posted by dviant
Sure Job, because I'm sure going from 5200 to 5600 is gonna raise PMG5 prices dramatically.... uh huh.
This is Apple we're talking about here. God only knows how Apple milks the prices (Apple store RAM anyone?)
And looking at the baseline Alienware tower, it too ships with the 5200. If a user wants a 'pro' card that bad, then I'm sure he/she will be willing to shell out the extra couple hundred.
Anyone wanting a DECENT graphics card on low and middle models now has to order straight from Apple and do BTO. Dumb.
Apple's out to make money. The demand for these towers is high and Apple's going to utilize their position. If users want better cards, then they better be prepared to pay for it.
All I'm saying is that top computers should ship with top graphics cards. That's they way it usually is with wintels.
that's because the majority of high-end machines in the PC world are bought for gaming, not working.
If you all really wanted it for "work only" then it should have Quadros for the 3-D folks or some crap ass ATI Rage 128 Pro with enough ram to run two monitors for the 2-D folks.
getting that extra 8 fps may be worth $200 to a gamer. it's not worth it to a photoshop junky.
There's no such thing as a pro gamer.
Some people use their computers for work. Those are the pro users. If you aren't producing money by using your computer, you aren't a "pro".
I'm sick of the "consumer" and "pro" bullshit that gets tossed around. 90% of the people buying computers are consumers. And anyone who talks about DOOM III is a consumer. And a ****ing child.
Originally posted by KeilwerthReborn
I find it ironic that the use of a "pro" card is to play ****ing video games.
There's no such thing as a pro gamer.
Some people use their computers for work. Those are the pro users. If you aren't producing money by using your computer, you aren't a "pro".
I'm sick of the "consumer" and "pro" bullshit that gets tossed around. 90% of the people buying computers are consumers. And anyone who talks about DOOM III is a consumer. And a ****ing child.
Wow a "****ing child." Thanks. You shouldn't call people, who you don't know, such names. Naughty you.
DOOM is a valid point of reference for rating a gpu's performance nearly as much as 3DMark. Anyway, Maya among other apps would also benefit from a higher end card with both the RAMDAC and the core chip @ 500 or 450Mhz instead of a paltry, midrange level, 350MHz. It's an insult to the "World's Fastest Desktop Computer" to be inferior in the gpu department.
Geez, the FX5200 is nVidia's low range card, costing less than a 100$ with it's perfomance being complimentary to this. It would ship in a sub 1500$ wintel box.
I bet that Dell Precision didn't ship with that.
Maybe some people here have only short-term memory, but I remember a time when high-end video cards weren't even an OPTION on Macs, at any price. It's actually pretty damn cool that one can order a Powermac G5 with the best gaming video cards on the market for either Wintel or Mac.
As for Doom 3, if Apple/IBM keep pushing the PMG5's mobo/cpu design, then we can expect it to perform considerably better on Mac. In such a case quite a few hard-core gamers will be buying these Powermacs, ordering the high-end video cards. Maybe with the extra volume prices will drop--there's something to look forward to.
What is more dissapointing though is the use of the FX5200. It would have been better if they could have at least used the Radeon 9200 instead. The FX5200 doesn't even have the performance of a GF4 Ti4200 or a GF3 Ti200. It is the GF4 MX420 of next generation graphics cards. The only word to describe the card is cr4p.
And really it is not about gaming; the FX5200 is a poor quality graphics card for both 2d and 3d. As I said the Radeon 9200 would have been a much better option and I think it should be expected that Apple should provide quality components right though its top machines.
Originally posted by KeilwerthReborn
I find it ironic that the use of a "pro" card is to play ****ing video games.
There's no such thing as a pro gamer.
Some people use their computers for work. Those are the pro users. If you aren't producing money by using your computer, you aren't a "pro".
I'm sick of the "consumer" and "pro" bullshit that gets tossed around. 90% of the people buying computers are consumers. And anyone who talks about DOOM III is a consumer. And a ****ing child.
Don't be a momo. Its just the way the vid card companies market their cards. "consumer" cards are the low end, being things like the various nVidia MX's and now the 5200. For people who don't want to spend a lot of money. Typically these are crippled in some way compared to the standard chip (ie nVidia 5600) which costs a little bit more and generally offers the best bang for the buck. And then there's the big daddy that costs way to much money except for those who desire that "extra 8fps" as Alcimedes puts it. Which by the way shows that Alicimedes doesnt know much about the difference in Graphic card performance these days :P Trust me you're gonna see a big diff between a GF FX 5200 and a GF FX 5600 (or an ATI 9600 Pro).
The real "pro" cards are stuff like Quadros and that *would* really raise PMG5 prices. I think those of us criticizing are just amazed that Apple would pair a low-end crippled card with the new wicked-fast PMG5s.
I know we all love dumb car metaphors, so it's like your Ferrari coming with cheap all-weather tires instead of high performance Pirelli tires. :P
Originally posted by dviant
I know we all love dumb car metaphors, so it's like your Ferrari coming with cheap all-weather tires instead of high performance Pirelli tires. :P
I confirm : it's a dumb analogy, without proper tires ,the car will crash at the first serious sportive turn.
The radeon 9600 pro is not a bad card and cost only 50 bucks more than the geforce 5200. Those who are concerned by a decent card should BTO one.
In an another way some people who will buy a tower for server will find that the geforce 5200 is a waste of money : that's why some PC constructors offer a rage 128 8 MB video card. I think that it's the way to make happy, buyers of big corps, who think they have saved money because the PC is filled with the crappiest thing in the market
The real "pro" cards are stuff like Quadros and that *would* really raise PMG5 prices. I think those of us criticizing are just amazed that Apple would pair a low-end crippled card with the new wicked-fast PMG5s.
Pro Cards are essentially cards with pro drivers. The hardware of the cards have nothing special compared to the consumers counterpart. A radeon 9800 pro certainly beat most of the quadro cards in 3 D.
Improving 3 D for macs requiere a lot of improvement in open GL with new fonctions requiered by 3 D professional modeling.
Originally posted by maxcom29
Better believe it.
My fastest machine is a 3.0GHz Intel P4, with the 800Mhz FSB, 1.5GB 3200 DDR SDRAM, 2x120GB Western Digital HD on 133/ATA, is running the nVidia FX5800 (the "duster"). Built it myself for roughly 2000$.
Built it yourself eh?
I take it that it does'nt have that ever so important "workstation credential" either?
-M
Originally posted by dviant
I know we all love dumb car metaphors, so it's like your Ferrari coming with cheap all-weather tires instead of high performance Pirelli tires. :P
hmm... in Europe, people will put snow tires on ugly black rims on their sports cars so they can drive them in winter.
Anyway, why is the glass half-empty? Apple can't target gamers for the PMG5 (yet), so they give a video card for the guys doing Photoshop. As an added bonus, those who find that lacking can get a 9800 Pro. Isn't that A Good Thing™?