while we are all amazed about the new macs, the housing/size capabilities of the new case is IMHO a BIG dissapointment.
having only 1 cd and 2 hds slots, the machine should have been half the size (especially the singles).
And as the dual is no longer a computer but more of a workstation, it should have had much more room to accomodate Pro's needs (read= heavy audio and video)
For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw). And as they're constantly doing backups and copies, dual SPEEDY CD drives is nothing but a must for them.
Moreover, 3 pci slots is NOT enough whatsoever, as theyre going to put several DSP audio cards inside, and maybe some fibre channel card, etc, etc
frankly, i'm very surprised this new *enormous* alucheese case fits less things inside than those popular small pc cases.
I like the convenience of having extra bays. Do I need the extra bays? Probably not. I just happen to have extra CD-ROM/RW and hard drives that I would prefer to integrate into the tower as opposed to cluttering up my desk with externals. Apple cares about case-design, but hey apparently don't care about the aesthetics of the desk top!
I don't like the extra height the handles add to the case. Apple should make them retractible a la the release handle on the G4 cube. We would get vertical space back to add another optical bay.
While we're on the cube, how long has it been since we've gone from zero fans to 9? Holy sh*t! Maybe they should use Ionic Breeze technology. Fanless arirflow at low wattage. Your G5 tower purifies the air you breath while you work!!! This would be pure marketing genius!!!
There are instances where external drives are more useful and less cumbersome than a large expandable tower.
Why does the tower even have to be on the desk?
Why not remove the Superdrive and place it in an external FW enclosure, stack an external CR-RW, and as many external HD FW enclosures as you please.
Now, store your tower out of sight, in a safe, well ventilated location. You'll never have to access it now anyways.
All you have on your desk is your monitor(s), input devices, and an array of stacked external enclosures which can be rearrranged, and transported around easily.
IMO, that is a far better 'pro' solution than a tower with a few extra drive bays...
For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw).
Do you think your system and apps need a whole 60-80GB HD? If you think a little, you can have 2 very fast HDs, some 120?180GB each. If you do need your system on a separate partition, do so. The less hardware you have, the fewer repairs/replacements you need.
TW and Applenut are both correct. I think people here should be less evangelist oriented in their methods of arguments. TW and Applenut are just being the classic Mac user. They want and expect more, as we all should...for this is what sets Mac users apart from the PC loser crowd.
Although I personally dont care about the second drive not being an option, I can see how other people would care.\
1. Specialized drives perform functions faster. The superdrive is really a DVD burner, so use it for burning DVDs. A separate CD-RW drive would read CDs faster and burn CDs faster.
True. That applies for Internal as Well as External. Not really relevant in this discussion as I arguement here is one of space and not speed.
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2. Eliminate a step when duping CDs. If I want to dupe a CD, I DON'T want to have to make a disc image, I want to burn it directly. I need two optical drives for this.
External drive applies here as well.
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3. Cost and Clutter. External drives increase clutter and reduce workspace. They cost more, in some cases MUCH more, than an internal drive. The whole point of buying a TOWER is to have all my sh!t in one place. If I want external drives then why not buy an iMac? Then I can have cables and drives all over my desk.
This is THE main issue. Cost and Clutter. In once scenario the end user reaps the cost rewards in the other Apple does. Internal drives cost less, of course. They contain no power supply nor can they be transported to another machine. They are less flexible and should be cheaper. Apple must have chosen to reduce their costs yet still provide enough for the masses.
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I don't understand why this is even a question, it seems self-evident that people like towers because they don't have to have so much external STUFF connected to their Mac
I think people like Towers because of a certain cachet with them. They "feel" and "look" more powerful. A majority of Towers are just empty boxes.
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Two optical drive bays is a luxury, just like a tower is. It's something that makes certain tasks easier and faster, but you don't REALLY need them to do the tasks. Perhaps if the Powermac G5s were in a lower price bracket, like $1000-$2000, not so many would complain, but that's not the case.
You know when most people were talking about what features they wanted in the next Powermacs. Drive Bays were pretty low on the list. I doubt things have changed albeit the concerns of a vocal few.
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having only 1 cd and 2 hds slots, the machine should have been half the size (especially the singles).
And as the dual is no longer a computer but more of a workstation, it should have had much more room to accomodate Pro's needs (read= heavy audio and video)
These Audio Video Pros are moving to external Devices. TC Electronics just announce last NAMM a Powercore FW that has twice the DSP. Digidesign announced the Digi002 Rack hooks up via FW. Mlan is poised to take off with the 01x FW/Mlan Mixer. Aja announced the I/O for 24 Audio channels and Uncompressed Video. Developer seem to realize that PCI is moving to PCI Express which will require retooling and additional Expense. Firwire is looking like a great option as it's future proof and devices portable.
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For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw). And as they're constantly doing backups and copies, dual SPEEDY CD drives is nothing but a must for them.
Not according to Sonik Matter Boards, Logic Users and the Logic Mailing list. 2 HD is fine with the second being partintioned. Dual CDs have not come up often from what I've seen. Most just seem to want stable Software and good interfacing with Plugins. DSP cards are popular but rarely will you see someone who has more than 1. That's expensive.
The options are pretty clear. Raid, SAN and Server Based storage is the way to go for Heavy Hitters. PCI-X allows for a PCI Break Out Box for those that need the crazy PCI slots. I think the users I see complaining about PCI slots and HD bays are the LEAST likely of people to really need them. As one person said put the "Fugly" G5 on the floor and move to an LCD Monitor and you have a nice Desktop minus excessive clutter.
Hell I've seen pics of some of the peopls desks on here and Cluttered is the norm.
For me, I prefer the external HD and CD. Got a FW400 52x Liteon cd burner with Oxford911/ case for $84 and a 120 GB HD and case for $148. This way when I go out of town for work I bring the HD and burner with my PB500 (hopefully to be history soon). This way I can have my 65GB of music, all of my work files (?20GB) + other stuff with me anywhere I go. At home I stack two FW HD and the cd Burner all daisy chained. This way the comp is out of the way and the CD burner is right on my desk.
Just wish Apple put a plug on the back of the comp that gave power out when the machine comes on so that I didn't have to turn the power strip on when I use the stuff.
where's the meaning of a desktop if you have to plug everything externally instead of having the hds,cds, cads..etc inside?
i already have a titanium. If i was going to get a desktop (probably) i dont want the mess of a thousand wires.
ANd firewire is not the answer. it is for one or two devices but not for several. Current Avid 1394 video processor eats ALL of the 1394 bandwidth.
there's a reason for internal instead of external boxes: cost.
When it's external it costs twice and it has to be Mac savvy (when it's internal you can buy whatever hd,cd etc brand you prefer).
And as of audio and HDs, it's more conveninet to dedicate 1 HD for general apps and system, and another for audio files. If you change clients or move to other studio removing/swapping the audio-only-drive gives you plenty of options.
And if you want to really take advantage of the full G5 for say the exs24 sampler, you need several hds (one can't bring 1,000 stereo files simultaneously). You should be able to turbo-charge the new G5 internally.
(and BTW, a lot of people are still waiting for a Mac chasis that can be easily placed into standard 19" flight cases)
For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw). And as they're constantly doing backups and copies, dual SPEEDY CD drives is nothing but a must for them.
Well, as a LA Platnum studio I must disagree. Why do you need a screamingly fast HD for your samples? Most are under under a couple of meg and can quiet simply be pulled off the server. And if you are running the Protools hardware all your hard drives are external drives anyway. We run five macs and none of them have more than one internal HD. Servers and external drives are the answer.
With GigE, FW800, etc, there is no reason to subject your precious data to the heat and potential damage that can occur in your workstation.
Put the drives in a cool, dry closet with a server or via FireWire. Make sure you RAID them to protect the data and for speed and please stop thinking that the ONLY way to work is through one box that is specially designed for you, while costing the rest of us an additional $100 or more.
If you want super-expandability, buy an Xserve and XServe RAID. That's what they are for: Highly expandable rack-mounted worksystems.
You want 2 or 20 CD drives? Rack 'em. You want 1-4 hot-swappable HDs? xServe them. Want up to 14 more HDs? xServe RAID them.
i have a titanium, so i'll use some firewire disks to share with the coming G5, no problemo.
But a friend of mine using Protools is wondering why can't he put all of the CDs and HDs of his dual G4 into the new G5. He says the G5 is supposed to be a workstation, not an imac.
I think he's right.
PS: you need several Hds for samples if you want to play the latest orchestral libraries (especially if you do complex scores), as each instrument is about a terabyte. almost ;-)
Why do you need a screamingly fast HD for your samples?
Agreed.
Me<---plenty happy with a single burner. if i need more space i'll buy a really big SATA drive. and use my current FW drives as backups in external cases.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for one day.
Give an Appleinsider the fastest desktop on the planet and they'll complain about what was left out for 6 months...
And both can be accomplished with external devices.
expensive external drives make me unhappy. cords (remeber the ad?) all over mydesk make me unhappy. the elevation of Ives to genius-status so that his whims can trump practicality makes me want to puke on small children.
But a friend of mine using Protools is wondering why can't he put all of the CDs and HDs of his dual G4 into the new G5. He says the G5 is supposed to be a workstation, not an imac.
I thought we were talking about pro users. Maybe there are different levels of pros. But someone who needs absolutely everything on their desktop sounds like a small operator.
A work station is a big computer that does lots of hard computations. Not something that you use just for archiving ALL your work. In that situation what happens when an HD fails? Like the iPod is not a tools for archiving all your CDs - just a device for carrying around what you need.
BTW PT Mix and HD will fit just fine inside a G5.
PS: you need several Hds for samples if you want to play the latest orchestral libraries (especially if you do complex scores), as each instrument is about a terabyte. almost ;-) [/QUOTE]
Do you mean samples or sound fonts? I could understand your point of view if you are meaning the later, but still surely you only load up what you need?
Why should the great majority of Mac users have to pay for the availability of a second drive if they never will use it?
They won't. A great majority of Mac users will have eMacs, iMacs, iBooks and PowerBooks. Those that opt for the PowerMac are the ones that want drive space in their machines.
I'm halfway on this issue. I have alot of Master CD's that I frequently need to dupe, but don't want to make an image of it every time I do it. I would really like two optical drives on the same bus to get the quickest and most reliable copies. As far as HDs go, external is fine, I like having my external FW Hard Drives so I can take them around with me, but as far as optical drives go I want two in my tower, but that aint going to happen with the G5 im getting, oh well.
Comments
having only 1 cd and 2 hds slots, the machine should have been half the size (especially the singles).
And as the dual is no longer a computer but more of a workstation, it should have had much more room to accomodate Pro's needs (read= heavy audio and video)
For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw). And as they're constantly doing backups and copies, dual SPEEDY CD drives is nothing but a must for them.
Moreover, 3 pci slots is NOT enough whatsoever, as theyre going to put several DSP audio cards inside, and maybe some fibre channel card, etc, etc
frankly, i'm very surprised this new *enormous* alucheese case fits less things inside than those popular small pc cases.
I don't like the extra height the handles add to the case. Apple should make them retractible a la the release handle on the G4 cube. We would get vertical space back to add another optical bay.
While we're on the cube, how long has it been since we've gone from zero fans to 9? Holy sh*t! Maybe they should use Ionic Breeze technology. Fanless arirflow at low wattage. Your G5 tower purifies the air you breath while you work!!! This would be pure marketing genius!!!
(calming down now ...)
Why does the tower even have to be on the desk?
Why not remove the Superdrive and place it in an external FW enclosure, stack an external CR-RW, and as many external HD FW enclosures as you please.
Now, store your tower out of sight, in a safe, well ventilated location. You'll never have to access it now anyways.
All you have on your desk is your monitor(s), input devices, and an array of stacked external enclosures which can be rearrranged, and transported around easily.
IMO, that is a far better 'pro' solution than a tower with a few extra drive bays...
Originally posted by jindrich
For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw).
Do you think your system and apps need a whole 60-80GB HD? If you think a little, you can have 2 very fast HDs, some 120?180GB each. If you do need your system on a separate partition, do so. The less hardware you have, the fewer repairs/replacements you need.
A tower with empty bays, you could use HD, optical drives, backup tapes etc with it, in any combination, all hot swappable.
it shouldn't be too expensive as this is basically just case with a controller.
hmmm
Although I personally dont care about the second drive not being an option, I can see how other people would care.
1. Specialized drives perform functions faster. The superdrive is really a DVD burner, so use it for burning DVDs. A separate CD-RW drive would read CDs faster and burn CDs faster.
True. That applies for Internal as Well as External. Not really relevant in this discussion as I arguement here is one of space and not speed.
2. Eliminate a step when duping CDs. If I want to dupe a CD, I DON'T want to have to make a disc image, I want to burn it directly. I need two optical drives for this.
External drive applies here as well.
3. Cost and Clutter. External drives increase clutter and reduce workspace. They cost more, in some cases MUCH more, than an internal drive. The whole point of buying a TOWER is to have all my sh!t in one place. If I want external drives then why not buy an iMac? Then I can have cables and drives all over my desk.
This is THE main issue. Cost and Clutter. In once scenario the end user reaps the cost rewards in the other Apple does. Internal drives cost less, of course. They contain no power supply nor can they be transported to another machine. They are less flexible and should be cheaper. Apple must have chosen to reduce their costs yet still provide enough for the masses.
I don't understand why this is even a question, it seems self-evident that people like towers because they don't have to have so much external STUFF connected to their Mac
I think people like Towers because of a certain cachet with them. They "feel" and "look" more powerful. A majority of Towers are just empty boxes.
Two optical drive bays is a luxury, just like a tower is. It's something that makes certain tasks easier and faster, but you don't REALLY need them to do the tasks. Perhaps if the Powermac G5s were in a lower price bracket, like $1000-$2000, not so many would complain, but that's not the case.
You know when most people were talking about what features they wanted in the next Powermacs. Drive Bays were pretty low on the list. I doubt things have changed albeit the concerns of a vocal few.
having only 1 cd and 2 hds slots, the machine should have been half the size (especially the singles).
And as the dual is no longer a computer but more of a workstation, it should have had much more room to accomodate Pro's needs (read= heavy audio and video)
These Audio Video Pros are moving to external Devices. TC Electronics just announce last NAMM a Powercore FW that has twice the DSP. Digidesign announced the Digi002 Rack hooks up via FW. Mlan is poised to take off with the 01x FW/Mlan Mixer. Aja announced the I/O for 24 Audio channels and Uncompressed Video. Developer seem to realize that PCI is moving to PCI Express which will require retooling and additional Expense. Firwire is looking like a great option as it's future proof and devices portable.
For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw). And as they're constantly doing backups and copies, dual SPEEDY CD drives is nothing but a must for them.
Not according to Sonik Matter Boards, Logic Users and the Logic Mailing list. 2 HD is fine with the second being partintioned. Dual CDs have not come up often from what I've seen. Most just seem to want stable Software and good interfacing with Plugins. DSP cards are popular but rarely will you see someone who has more than 1. That's expensive.
The options are pretty clear. Raid, SAN and Server Based storage is the way to go for Heavy Hitters. PCI-X allows for a PCI Break Out Box for those that need the crazy PCI slots. I think the users I see complaining about PCI slots and HD bays are the LEAST likely of people to really need them. As one person said put the "Fugly" G5 on the floor and move to an LCD Monitor and you have a nice Desktop minus excessive clutter.
Hell I've seen pics of some of the peopls desks on here and Cluttered is the norm.
Just wish Apple put a plug on the back of the comp that gave power out when the machine comes on so that I didn't have to turn the power strip on when I use the stuff.
i already have a titanium. If i was going to get a desktop (probably) i dont want the mess of a thousand wires.
ANd firewire is not the answer. it is for one or two devices but not for several. Current Avid 1394 video processor eats ALL of the 1394 bandwidth.
there's a reason for internal instead of external boxes: cost.
When it's external it costs twice and it has to be Mac savvy (when it's internal you can buy whatever hd,cd etc brand you prefer).
And as of audio and HDs, it's more conveninet to dedicate 1 HD for general apps and system, and another for audio files. If you change clients or move to other studio removing/swapping the audio-only-drive gives you plenty of options.
And if you want to really take advantage of the full G5 for say the exs24 sampler, you need several hds (one can't bring 1,000 stereo files simultaneously). You should be able to turbo-charge the new G5 internally.
(and BTW, a lot of people are still waiting for a Mac chasis that can be easily placed into standard 19" flight cases)
Originally posted by jindrich
For instance, people working with logic audio will need at least 3 HDs: 1 general HD for the system and apps, 1 for audio files and another for samples (and those last two HDs need to be screamingly fast, btw). And as they're constantly doing backups and copies, dual SPEEDY CD drives is nothing but a must for them.
Well, as a LA Platnum studio I must disagree. Why do you need a screamingly fast HD for your samples? Most are under under a couple of meg and can quiet simply be pulled off the server. And if you are running the Protools hardware all your hard drives are external drives anyway. We run five macs and none of them have more than one internal HD. Servers and external drives are the answer.
Clarification added.
Exactly.
With GigE, FW800, etc, there is no reason to subject your precious data to the heat and potential damage that can occur in your workstation.
Put the drives in a cool, dry closet with a server or via FireWire. Make sure you RAID them to protect the data and for speed and please stop thinking that the ONLY way to work is through one box that is specially designed for you, while costing the rest of us an additional $100 or more.
If you want super-expandability, buy an Xserve and XServe RAID. That's what they are for: Highly expandable rack-mounted worksystems.
You want 2 or 20 CD drives? Rack 'em. You want 1-4 hot-swappable HDs? xServe them. Want up to 14 more HDs? xServe RAID them.
But a friend of mine using Protools is wondering why can't he put all of the CDs and HDs of his dual G4 into the new G5. He says the G5 is supposed to be a workstation, not an imac.
I think he's right.
PS: you need several Hds for samples if you want to play the latest orchestral libraries (especially if you do complex scores), as each instrument is about a terabyte. almost ;-)
Why do you need a screamingly fast HD for your samples?
Agreed.
Me<---plenty happy with a single burner. if i need more space i'll buy a really big SATA drive. and use my current FW drives as backups in external cases.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for one day.
Give an Appleinsider the fastest desktop on the planet and they'll complain about what was left out for 6 months...
Originally posted by I, Fred
Drive-to-drive burning makes me happy. Also, getting to choose faster burners makes me super-happy.
And both can be accomplished with external devices.
Originally posted by Outsider
And both can be accomplished with external devices.
expensive external drives make me unhappy. cords (remeber the ad?) all over mydesk make me unhappy. the elevation of Ives to genius-status so that his whims can trump practicality makes me want to puke on small children.
Why should the great majority of Mac users have to pay for the availability of a second drive if they never will use it?
Designing room for it costs money, and every purchaser must pay for the extra materials, design, and the wasted space.
If it's not in the machine, only those few who want it will miss it, and they can pay to have an external.
In other words, quit b*tching that your Porsche doesn't have a hatchback!
Originally posted by jindrich
But a friend of mine using Protools is wondering why can't he put all of the CDs and HDs of his dual G4 into the new G5. He says the G5 is supposed to be a workstation, not an imac.
I thought we were talking about pro users. Maybe there are different levels of pros. But someone who needs absolutely everything on their desktop sounds like a small operator.
A work station is a big computer that does lots of hard computations. Not something that you use just for archiving ALL your work. In that situation what happens when an HD fails? Like the iPod is not a tools for archiving all your CDs - just a device for carrying around what you need.
BTW PT Mix and HD will fit just fine inside a G5.
PS: you need several Hds for samples if you want to play the latest orchestral libraries (especially if you do complex scores), as each instrument is about a terabyte. almost ;-) [/QUOTE]
Do you mean samples or sound fonts? I could understand your point of view if you are meaning the later, but still surely you only load up what you need?
Originally posted by jccbin
Why should the great majority of Mac users have to pay for the availability of a second drive if they never will use it?
They won't. A great majority of Mac users will have eMacs, iMacs, iBooks and PowerBooks. Those that opt for the PowerMac are the ones that want drive space in their machines.