G5's limited upgrade potential?!?

rokrok
Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
i'm putting this thread here because:



a.) the g5, while announced, isn't shipping or in anyone's hand, so i don't consider it "current." as we have all found in the past, a LOT can happen between announcement and "shipping" (or, often in apple's case, NOTHING will happen).



b.) it concerns future upgrades to the tower.



posted on macrumors this morning:



Quote:

In perhaps what should be taken in the strictest definition of a rumor, one Xlr8yourmac.com post indicates that one Apple engineer suggested that the PowerMac G5's may be difficult to upgrade (Processors) due to the cooling/venting requirements:



One thing he said is that it will be extremely difficult to upgrade the chips in this machine. Each computer is uniquely paired with its processors to have perfect venting. Changing out processors would throw off the chip that handles the G5 cooling, resulting in (at best) the computer running for a while then shutting off, or (at worst) a non-booting machine.



Another submission claims that each system (including support chips for the 970) require custom calibration for the fans to work properly, making CPU replacements very difficult.



Obviously, more information will become available in the months to come, as machines become available and upgrade vendors gain access to these machines.



wow, i know apple didn't care to cater to the upgrade market (for obvious reasons), but, if true, i would think would seal the doom for all but the most profitable (sonnet, right now, i think -- maybe powerlogix, too), and even for those, r&d may be too steep without a guaranteed return on investment for creating the upgrades.



if this is true, this would cause quite a pickle, because every time i bought a tower, i was fairly confident someone would have an upgrade somewhere down the line for me to use, but now...



anyway, thoughts? opinions? rants? raves? discuss...
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 61
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    As long as the chip is socketed or slotted in place and not soldered, there will be upgrades available from a third party that takes the time to reverse engineer a relatively minor issue of heat/fan calibration. I could see them just jigging the fan controll to run the CPU fans constantly, or kick them in sooner/faster. Done. Mebbe the after market upgrade will include a 3rd party fan. Sounds like FUD. In two years time you'll start seeing the first upgrades, I wouldn't touch a machine untill it was alreay out of warrantee anyway 2-3 years. Plenty of time for the good souls of various Sonnet and co to make satisfactory upgrades work reliably.
  • Reply 2 of 61
    henriokhenriok Posts: 537member
    No that we have PCI-X slots in the G5 is there a point of developing accelerator cards for PCI-X? If you want more punch in rendering 3D or movies.. will a PCI-X-card sporting G5 co-processors with its own RAM and cache be an option? Can it be done?
  • Reply 3 of 61
    stalkerdeapplenutstalkerdeapplenut Posts: 39member
    Im thinking Upgrades can use .9 process G5s. thus faster and less/same heat...



    Am I wrong here?
  • Reply 4 of 61
    ssendamssendam Posts: 19member
    stalkerdeapplenut, you are right.

    This heat calibration argument is a weak one.
  • Reply 5 of 61
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by stalkerdeapplenut

    Im thinking Upgrades can use .9 process G5s. thus faster and less/same heat...



    Am I wrong here?



    You are quite correct. Smaller G5's would solve the problem.
  • Reply 6 of 61
    yevgenyyevgeny Posts: 1,148member
    A more relevant concern would be if the Apple ASIC that manages the bus would be able to scale with faster CPU's. If the bus is currently running at 1GHz, could it scale to 1.5GHz (to keep at half the speed of a 3GHz G5), or would it too need a die shrink? If tjese components need a die shrink, thenyou are out of luck as far as CPU upgrades go. It might be that certain chips on the mobo can't be run at a faster clock rate. I guess that this would be the price you pay for bleeding edge perfromance.
  • Reply 7 of 61
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,458member
    The G5s probably aren't socketed. They're likely to be soldered like a pincushion to the motherboard. I don't think these machines will be upgradeable at all.
  • Reply 8 of 61
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    That would be bad, very bad, and I should hope for a strong user back-lash against Apple for such a blantantly contemptous move against their pro customers. I'll be right at the head of the bitching brigade should they do/have done this idiotic thing.
  • Reply 9 of 61
    gizzmonicgizzmonic Posts: 511member
    Guys, it's a little too soon to say for sure if the G5's CPU is totally fixed and unupgradable.



    Question though: does the bus speed of the G5 have to run at exactly half the clockspeed? because if that's required, then it could seriously short-circuit upgrading.
  • Reply 10 of 61
    jcgjcg Posts: 777member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gizzmonic

    Guys, it's a little too soon to say for sure if the G5's CPU is totally fixed and unupgradable.



    Question though: does the bus speed of the G5 have to run at exactly half the clockspeed? because if that's required, then it could seriously short-circuit upgrading.



    Unless behind those massive heat sinks is a daughter card that sets the bus speed, or the bus speed is adjustable in some other way, such as dip switches, o rjumpers. I havent read any indication that they are using daughter cards or some sort of socket (zif?) but it makes sense that they would becouse this gives them more flexability in "just-in-time" delivery of products and BTO delivery in brick and morter as well as online stores. Any older daughter cards can be sold through parts outlets, or held on to for repair work. This allows them to move to a faster processor with less channel clearing required for minor updates.
  • Reply 11 of 61
    outsideroutsider Posts: 6,008member
    The only way I imagine the processors could be upgradable is if the G5s are on one daughtercard with the companion chip. From the companion chip to the memory DIMMS would require a very very robust connector like a LIF (low insertion force) or something more heavy duty to keep up the fast communication. Unfortunately that would make the card both pretty difficult to make and expensive. Who knows if IBM is even selling the 970 and/or companion chip to other manufacturers.
  • Reply 12 of 61
    keilwerthrebornkeilwerthreborn Posts: 129member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Matsu

    I'll be right at the head of the bitching brigade





    WWHHAAAAATT? Matsu bitching? How could this be?





    ****, folks, it's not out yet. I know that nothing brings joy to your hearts like complaining about Apple, but you don't know the situation at this point.



    Furthermore, how many people actually do processor upgrades? I've always seen them as a waste of money. Your money would be better spent towards the purchase of a new computer.
  • Reply 13 of 61
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Fast, upgradeable, inexpensive: Pick any two. (And yes, $3K is inexpensive for the machine you get.)



    I don't know about you guys, but given the choice I'd rather have a scorching fast machine with a very-high-bandwidth processor bus and a fast, contention-free controller. Only a minority of customers for this machine will be able to really tax it right from the get-go, so I imagine these things enjoying long careers as production machines.



    Piecemeal upgradeability is, I think, far more widely expected of PCs than of Macs anyway, and even more necessary.



    Join the bitch brigade if you want to, but be mindful that there are two ways to address the upgrade market: Cramp the performance of the machines in order to loosen the connections between the parts, or send the price through the roof engineering and building high-performance, swappable connectors. Hot-swap PCI and SCSI exist, if you're willing to pay for them.
  • Reply 14 of 61
    gargoylegargoyle Posts: 660member
    I am no wiser than anyone else about the chips being soldered, or socketed. But all that babble about the fans is pure BS. To calibrate EACH machine would require someone pushing the dual G5's to the limit for a few hours... Thats a LONG time for a finished machine to sit and wait to be boxed up.



    I think you will find that the fans are on temp sensors and speed controllers, just like thermiltake fans.



    G
  • Reply 15 of 61
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    Fast, upgradeable, inexpensive: Pick any two. (And yes, $3K is inexpensive for the machine you get.)



    I don't know about you guys, but given the choice I'd rather have a scorching fast machine with a very-high-bandwidth processor bus and a fast, contention-free controller. Only a minority of customers for this machine will be able to really tax it right from the get-go, so I imagine these things enjoying long careers as production machines.



    Piecemeal upgradeability is, I think, far more widely expected of PCs than of Macs anyway, and even more necessary.







    you are right i have upgraded my G3 350 that i use for server with a G4 550 from powerlogix, i did not see any difference in performance.

    The last edition of MacWorld french edition speak about upgrading.

    Here is the results :



    Speedmark3,2 imovie 2,,1,2 mp3 encoding



    G3 350 54 2,08 2,53



    G3 350 with G4 550 73 1,10 1,23



    G4 466 96 1,07 1,18





    I movie and mp3 encoding are much faster due to the altivec acceleration. but the result is quite disapointing with speedmark, a test who is in par with real performance under 4 D server. 35 % more performance for a ship when you are waiting 57 % when you calculate the clock speed ratio is pretty lame.

    As you can see, i have spend my money 500 $ for a 35 % boost on a old computer. If this computer was for a photoshop use it will be different, but for a server it was a waste of money.



    Many upgrades are disapointing. If the G5 cannot upgrade his chip, it won't be a nightmare.
  • Reply 16 of 61
    zazzaz Posts: 177member
    G5 being upgradeable or not is sort of a non-issue...



    I doubt the upgrade companies can weather the transition.



    No way will G5's make it into current G4s. These companies thrive on slipping new cpus into aging machines. G4s into G3 machines and the like. The G5/New Architecture is so different and so much more capapble than the G4 platform that a G5 in one is just plain silly.



    So while the G5 may or may not have an upgrade path...the current companies may have long since gone under as next to no one will be upgrading G4 boxes from here on out.
  • Reply 17 of 61
    powerdocpowerdoc Posts: 8,123member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by zaz

    G5 being upgradeable or not is sort of a non-issue...



    I doubt the upgrade companies can weather the transition.



    No way will G5's make it into current G4s. These companies thrive on slipping new cpus into aging machines. G4s into G3 machines and the like. The G5/New Architecture is so different and so much more capapble than the G4 platform that a G5 in one is just plain silly.



    So while the G5 may or may not have an upgrade path...the current companies may have long since gone under as next to no one will be upgrading G4 boxes from here on out.



    You are right they will be only able to upgrade old G4 macs with the 7457 in the future. The problem is that this generation of computer will be starved for ever by the MPX bus.
  • Reply 18 of 61
    razorrazor Posts: 9member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Powerdoc

    You are right they will be only able to upgrade old G4 macs with the 7457 in the future. The problem is that this generation of computer will be starved for ever by the MPX bus.



    The older the model, the slower the MPX bus and the more limited is the upgrade's benefit. However, the 7547 with more L2 and support for more L3 could come into play favorably.



    But this might be the last chip from Motorolla to support the MPX bus, so those who stand to benefit the most are older G4 users who don't need a whole lot more performance and are limited right now in their upgrade solution by heat issues or price. If upgrade prices fall under $300 bucks at the higher clocks, I think there will still be a big enough market for the G4.



    As for the G5, this might be the tradeoff for those high performance point to point buses with tight electrical specs, we simply won't have the same upgrade market. Who knows, maybe someone will figure out how to put a third processor in the 133MHz pci-x slot to assist the original two. But with the limited bandwidth on the pci-x bus, I doubt that will be extremely attractive (let alone feasible). And few people would send in a motherboard to have new components soldered on.
  • Reply 19 of 61
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    We're just talking about a socket here, not other forms of connection exotica. Just about every desktop board in existence uses a socket, it shouldn't drive up the costs. Lets say I get a tower and after 4-5 years there's a decent INEXPENSIVE upgrade. That makes sense if you keep your head and cost it out right. The upgraded machine will never be a screamer, but it might be worth keeping in service if you get an upgrade for the right price.
  • Reply 20 of 61
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,458member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gargoyle

    I am no wiser than anyone else about the chips being soldered, or socketed. But all that babble about the fans is pure BS. To calibrate EACH machine would require someone pushing the dual G5's to the limit for a few hours... Thats a LONG time for a finished machine to sit and wait to be boxed up.



    I think you will find that the fans are on temp sensors and speed controllers, just like thermiltake fans.





    My take is that "each machine" means every processor configuration, not each and every unit that ships from the factory.



    The G5 doesn't use pins so socketing isn't an option. A daughtercard scheme might be possible, but certainly isn't required. If the design is really that fine tuned then the BTO advantages of swappable processors are gone. Apple has never designed a machine to be user-upgradeable, and there is no reason to do so (from their perspective). The number of users who actually upgrade is very very small.
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