look, computer handwriting recognition will not take the world by storm until someone makes a tablet that gives you visual feedback beneath your writing as it happens. sure, lots of people touchtype, but i don't know ANYONE who regularly writes and doesn't look at what they are writing.
as it stands, ANY tablet is much too "out-of-body" for handwriting to be very usable (or, for that matter, fast). hell, it's a testament to the ink handwriting team that they can compensate for the 758% drop in legibility that most handwriting experiences on current tablets (which are almost all from wacom... except those who can afford a cintiq, i guess).
all apple has to do is release a great, small, grayscale tablet so that the user can watch as the letters and words are created, and you will see a massive jump in acceptance. you could even integrate the small tablet input into ichat so you could send friends a quickly sketched map of where to meet or whatever (or have little 5 year old bobby draw a picture for grandpa -- cheesy, sure, but steve would eat this stuff up for keynote purposes).
As of right now, I'd love to see an Apple device that is somewhere larger than a PDA but way smaller than a tablet. I'm sort of giving up on the idea that Steve will bring back the Newton he axed, and he's said that tablet appeal to rich guys with plenty of other gadgets.
So I'm thinking something with an 6 or 8-inch screen with Airport extreme. That's really portable and with decent handwritting recognition it would be killer. That's also innovative since there's not a lot of devices like that out there. I'm a college student and if this thing could replace my paper notebook and then I could archive this stuff on my TiBook, woah, I'd definitely get one. It would sure be more appealing than taking my laptop to school. It's just more natural to take notes on something like this and add graphs and stuff. Pretty neat if you ask me.
There's this guy in my Networking class that uses his iPaq with wireless ethernet. This Apple PDA/tablet hybrid could have a version of Safari and make surfing more interesting too, since you could do it from a Starbucks or your living room or school campus.
Well, just my thoughts, that's all.
And Apple should buy the naming rights to an NFL stadium too, hehe.
Originally posted by Aries 1B Laptops are so 20th century.....
Here, here!
The fact of the matter is Inkwell wouldn't be around now if a tablet-like device wasn't coming out in the next couple years. They didn't make it for Wacom users or because they just "had the technology lying around." It's an expenditure to bring its compatibility to OS X - in programming, testing, and research. The only reason Steve gave for not having a tablet now is the niche market - that's not a long term excuse. Is he afraid of having a niche within a niche? What'd he think .Mac would turn into? Apple can thrive on niche markets and the world knows it now - their experience would only more qualify them to market a tablet.
Inkwell, increasing sales of portable machines, the growing competition, and the rising demands of artists ensure the debut of a Mac tablet. I say, next year's MWNY at the latest.
Personally, I think they're just waiting until they can bring the whole Powerbook line into tablet-like features perhaps in junction with an iMac that has a detachable screen.
The fact of the matter is Inkwell wouldn't be around now if a tablet-like device wasn't coming out in the next couple years. They didn't make it for Wacom users or because they just "had the technology lying around." It's an expenditure to bring its compatibility to OS X - in programming, testing, and research. The only reason Steve gave for not having a tablet out now is because of its niche market - that's not a long term excuse. Is he afraid of having a niche within a niche? What'd he think .Mac would turn into? Apple can thrive on niche markets and the world knows it now - their experience would only more qualify them to market a tablet.
Inkwell, increasing sales of portable machines, the growing competition, and the rising demand of artists ensure the debut of a Mac tablet. I say, next year's MWNY at the latest.
Personally, I think they're just waiting until they can bring the whole Powerbook line into tablet-like features perhaps in junction with an iMac that has a detachable screen.
Oh it's coming.
Phong:
You are a poster of good breeding, good taste, and incisive intellect.
My dad (a well known aircraft designer) has been a die hard Apple fan and faithful Apple user / PC hater since the late 1970s (first Apple ][). Someone gave him a Toshiba Portégé 3500 Tablet PC ( http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/t...il.jsp?comm=CS ) a few months ago, and now he wont put it down! He still uses a PowerMac G4 at his desk, but the Toshiba is now his go-everywhere portable. This is because he loves the pen / paper free-hand drawing/writing journal software that comes with it. He sill hates Windows, but the natural interface for design and note taking has got him hooked.
Apple needs to introduce a tablet portable before this walking Macintosh advertisement opportunity ( http://www.apple.com/creative/stories/rutan/ ) switches completely over to the dark side!
Posted by: JeffRutan on Jul 11, 03 | 2:03 pm<<<<<
Not only is there a market, but it is slipping away.
Sounds like a Dilbert strip...you are walking while talking on a cell phone, writing on a tablet, eating a Whopper, and about to run into me! No this was a new shirt! What's the difference between a tablet and a laptop with a screen that flips around or is better yet detachable with a cable? A little size and weight, for a massively better machine.
The way you all are using "tablet" interchangebly is scary.
The thread was first about an external drawing tablet, then it was about a pen-aware trackpad. Then it morphed to be about tablet computers with on-screen pen/touch input.
Now, I'm not complaining about the thread encompassing many things, not at all, but I'm bemused/dismayed that some of you seem to be talking about dissimilar things simultaneously, unaware of what the other's are talking about.
Allow me to clarify for anyone that might need it? If you don't,
just skip it.
Drawing Tablet - wired (possibly wireless) external drawing tablet that connects to a computer and allows the user to input via a stylus (nowadays usually wirelessly, although not in the Airport/Bluetooth sense).
Trackpad Tablet - An expanded trackpad for a laptop that is useable with a stylus.
Tablet Computer - A keyboardless computer with an LCD screen that accepts touch and pen input.
---
A side note, that original screen grab really is identical in functionality to the one in Jaguar, I assume the poster just hasn't used Jag with a tablet...
---
As far as what I think is likely, 5 stars being most likely:
USB (wired) Drawing Tablet: *
Wireless Drawing Tablet: **
Trackpad with Pen Input: **
"iPad", or Pen-Based Tablet Macintosh Computer: ***
"iPen"; a bluetooth pen-only input device. Stylus sends signal to bluetooth/USB receiver. Comes with charger and writing surface (but the brains are only in the pen - the "tablet" is merely a smooth surface. Pen stand is the charger). *** (only that Apple would likely shake up the design in this way, not that I think it's likely to come out necessarily).
holy crap, it just dawned on me, like a brick wrapped in a slice of lemon.
remember how i was saying that you needed to be able to see the writing as it was happening for handwriting recognition to really take off? well, i had been fixating on this tablet idea because it was what everyone else thought would happen.
well, for your infotainment (and because i know of at least one apple engineer who takes every idea i have and goes racing to steve and gets it patented and gets raises... badged minimized dock windows, the "ipod jog wheel" mouse, etc. sigh), i suddenly see this whole concept "out of the box"...
why make a tablet or trackpad AT ALL??? why couldn't you just develop a small bluetooth device that attaches to ANY pen or pencil (or hell, maybe even your finger) that allows to to track in two dimensions on ANY SURFACE?!?
that way, just grab ANY scrap of paper you have lying around, clip this tracker around the end of the pen or pencil, give it a quick calibration (a simple button could be clicked when the pen is at the ready), and JUST START WRITING.
bam. instant transfer of YOUR HANDWRITING to the computer without any interceding scanning, etc. just you, whatever you are comfortable in using, and ink under mac os x.
i think my brain just turned inside out.
apple, seriously, just private message me, i'll accept the offer, but i have to stay in new orleans for my wife's work. but i can do this kind of stuff remotely.
There would be no way to gauge pressure sensitivity if it is to also allow the pen/pencil to draw. There are of course drawing tablet stylii that can draw in ink while sending data but they only work with an underlying medium, like a tablet, which is the reference point for x and y (z being ascertained by vertical proximity to the electrostatic field of the tablet surface in relation to the stylus tip.) (most geeky sentence - ever?)
There would be no way to track x, y and z reliably without a fixed medium such as drawing tablet/screen or a mimio Xi-like device. One cannot yet determine spatial coordinates that reliably. We need pixel resolution or better don't forget.
But maybe...hmm...if we took an optical sensor from an optical mouse and put it into a hollow stylus which could hold regular pens, I think it could work. The optical sensor would just take relative measurements...not relying on a true 3D cubic/spatial grid, but rather just keeping track of where you are now compared to where you were a second ago, by looking at the surface as you write same as optical mice do now. We could have a spring and sensor at the back of the stylus that is pushing against the pen/pencil and registering the pressure as you press. Hmm....
I am not saying it will never be done, just stating the obstacle that will need to be overcome.
Of course if anyone could do it Apple could.
Probably not. But I think Apple will eventually put that HWR to good use.
There would be no way to gauge pressure sensitivity if it is to also allow the pen/pencil to draw.
ah, but you're forgetting the purpose of this "device," which is only to write and sketch (i.e. simple black & white maps, etc.), not for photoshop work or the like. if you notice, the current inkpad doesn't really care about pressure sensitivity at all. all it wants to do is get the gestures so it can translate them. (edit: in fact, pressure sensitivity actually works AGAINST ink, because if you press too lightly during a quick stroke, ink may not pick it up at all (while the wacom controls would see the stroke in any other application), thus negating the effectiveness of the tech to begin with.)
so apple could, as it always does, say "use our device to just write notes and simple sketches, but use wacom's for actual artwork." kinda like the isight is fine for videoconferencing, but you wouldn't use it for your next feature film (or even idvd).
rok: I like it. I really like it. Bluetooth for everything! Another case of Apple leading the industry with new tech. I intentionally left input vague because I think in terms of display and input tech, we will see a lot revolutions coming this year or next. But you'll always need a keyboard and some form of mouse or pointing device. The current concept of a tablet is useless and therefore stillborn in the market. Kind of like "Audrey" from (3com?)
To me, the idea of a tablet needing to piggy-back with a "real" computer is analogous to the old internet appliance concept, a la the Compaq iPAQ or the 3com Audry. Remember what Jobs said about avoiding a "junior" internet experience with respect to that idea. I think a tablet with limited functionality is a "junior" tablet experience, a junior computer experience even.
Ahem...Didn't I just say "iPen; a bluetooth pen-only input device. Stylus sends signal to bluetooth/USB receiver" before Rok?
(pouts)
well, yeah, but mine was an adapter that could be added/wrapped around any currently existing pen. though, in fairness to the engineers tasked with creating such a thing, i may be asking a bit too much to cram it all in anything smaller than an complete stylus design, so yours may be the more realistic of the two.
the stylus, though, should have a way to add simple ink refills to it, so that you can still use it as a regular pen, and write on paper to give you instant visual feedback. though if it were inkless and could track on any surface, you could theoretically even draw right on a flat screen. for example, you could then apply pressure to a button on the stylus as you begin to write, and the pen/stylus would track relative to the point where you started writing (which is kinda how inkpad/ink work now... they don't care where exactly on the screen you start writing).
so apple could, as it always does, say "use our device to just write notes and simple sketches, but use wacom's for actual artwork." kinda like the isight is fine for videoconferencing, but you wouldn't use it for your next feature film (or even idvd).
Comments
as it stands, ANY tablet is much too "out-of-body" for handwriting to be very usable (or, for that matter, fast). hell, it's a testament to the ink handwriting team that they can compensate for the 758% drop in legibility that most handwriting experiences on current tablets (which are almost all from wacom... except those who can afford a cintiq, i guess).
all apple has to do is release a great, small, grayscale tablet so that the user can watch as the letters and words are created, and you will see a massive jump in acceptance. you could even integrate the small tablet input into ichat so you could send friends a quickly sketched map of where to meet or whatever (or have little 5 year old bobby draw a picture for grandpa -- cheesy, sure, but steve would eat this stuff up for keynote purposes).
anyway, there's my two cents.*
*now, two cents AMERICAN! good to be back, folks!
So I'm thinking something with an 6 or 8-inch screen with Airport extreme. That's really portable and with decent handwritting recognition it would be killer. That's also innovative since there's not a lot of devices like that out there. I'm a college student and if this thing could replace my paper notebook and then I could archive this stuff on my TiBook, woah, I'd definitely get one. It would sure be more appealing than taking my laptop to school. It's just more natural to take notes on something like this and add graphs and stuff. Pretty neat if you ask me.
There's this guy in my Networking class that uses his iPaq with wireless ethernet. This Apple PDA/tablet hybrid could have a version of Safari and make surfing more interesting too, since you could do it from a Starbucks or your living room or school campus.
Well, just my thoughts, that's all.
And Apple should buy the naming rights to an NFL stadium too, hehe.
Originally posted by Aries 1B Laptops are so 20th century.....
Here, here!
The fact of the matter is Inkwell wouldn't be around now if a tablet-like device wasn't coming out in the next couple years. They didn't make it for Wacom users or because they just "had the technology lying around." It's an expenditure to bring its compatibility to OS X - in programming, testing, and research. The only reason Steve gave for not having a tablet now is the niche market - that's not a long term excuse. Is he afraid of having a niche within a niche? What'd he think .Mac would turn into? Apple can thrive on niche markets and the world knows it now - their experience would only more qualify them to market a tablet.
Inkwell, increasing sales of portable machines, the growing competition, and the rising demands of artists ensure the debut of a Mac tablet. I say, next year's MWNY at the latest.
Personally, I think they're just waiting until they can bring the whole Powerbook line into tablet-like features perhaps in junction with an iMac that has a detachable screen.
Oh it's coming.
Originally posted by Phong
Here, here!
The fact of the matter is Inkwell wouldn't be around now if a tablet-like device wasn't coming out in the next couple years. They didn't make it for Wacom users or because they just "had the technology lying around." It's an expenditure to bring its compatibility to OS X - in programming, testing, and research. The only reason Steve gave for not having a tablet out now is because of its niche market - that's not a long term excuse. Is he afraid of having a niche within a niche? What'd he think .Mac would turn into? Apple can thrive on niche markets and the world knows it now - their experience would only more qualify them to market a tablet.
Inkwell, increasing sales of portable machines, the growing competition, and the rising demand of artists ensure the debut of a Mac tablet. I say, next year's MWNY at the latest.
Personally, I think they're just waiting until they can bring the whole Powerbook line into tablet-like features perhaps in junction with an iMac that has a detachable screen.
Oh it's coming.
Phong:
You are a poster of good breeding, good taste, and incisive intellect.
Aries 1B
>>>>>
http://www.envestco2.com/macwhispers...?id=P153_0_4_0
My dad (a well known aircraft designer) has been a die hard Apple fan and faithful Apple user / PC hater since the late 1970s (first Apple ][). Someone gave him a Toshiba Portégé 3500 Tablet PC ( http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/t...il.jsp?comm=CS ) a few months ago, and now he wont put it down! He still uses a PowerMac G4 at his desk, but the Toshiba is now his go-everywhere portable. This is because he loves the pen / paper free-hand drawing/writing journal software that comes with it. He sill hates Windows, but the natural interface for design and note taking has got him hooked.
Apple needs to introduce a tablet portable before this walking Macintosh advertisement opportunity ( http://www.apple.com/creative/stories/rutan/ ) switches completely over to the dark side!
Posted by: JeffRutan on Jul 11, 03 | 2:03 pm<<<<<
Not only is there a market, but it is slipping away.
Aries 1B
Not for walking around, no way.
Sounds like a Dilbert strip...you are walking while talking on a cell phone, writing on a tablet, eating a Whopper, and about to run into me! No this was a new shirt! What's the difference between a tablet and a laptop with a screen that flips around or is better yet detachable with a cable? A little size and weight, for a massively better machine.
The way you all are using "tablet" interchangebly is scary.
The thread was first about an external drawing tablet, then it was about a pen-aware trackpad. Then it morphed to be about tablet computers with on-screen pen/touch input.
Now, I'm not complaining about the thread encompassing many things, not at all, but I'm bemused/dismayed that some of you seem to be talking about dissimilar things simultaneously, unaware of what the other's are talking about.
Allow me to clarify for anyone that might need it? If you don't,
just skip it.
Drawing Tablet - wired (possibly wireless) external drawing tablet that connects to a computer and allows the user to input via a stylus (nowadays usually wirelessly, although not in the Airport/Bluetooth sense).
Trackpad Tablet - An expanded trackpad for a laptop that is useable with a stylus.
Tablet Computer - A keyboardless computer with an LCD screen that accepts touch and pen input.
---
A side note, that original screen grab really is identical in functionality to the one in Jaguar, I assume the poster just hasn't used Jag with a tablet...
---
As far as what I think is likely, 5 stars being most likely:
There is no *****
remember how i was saying that you needed to be able to see the writing as it was happening for handwriting recognition to really take off? well, i had been fixating on this tablet idea because it was what everyone else thought would happen.
well, for your infotainment (and because i know of at least one apple engineer who takes every idea i have and goes racing to steve and gets it patented and gets raises... badged minimized dock windows, the "ipod jog wheel" mouse, etc. sigh), i suddenly see this whole concept "out of the box"...
why make a tablet or trackpad AT ALL??? why couldn't you just develop a small bluetooth device that attaches to ANY pen or pencil (or hell, maybe even your finger) that allows to to track in two dimensions on ANY SURFACE?!?
that way, just grab ANY scrap of paper you have lying around, clip this tracker around the end of the pen or pencil, give it a quick calibration (a simple button could be clicked when the pen is at the ready), and JUST START WRITING.
bam. instant transfer of YOUR HANDWRITING to the computer without any interceding scanning, etc. just you, whatever you are comfortable in using, and ink under mac os x.
i think my brain just turned inside out.
apple, seriously, just private message me, i'll accept the offer, but i have to stay in new orleans for my wife's work. but i can do this kind of stuff remotely.
There would be no way to track x, y and z reliably without a fixed medium such as drawing tablet/screen or a mimio Xi-like device. One cannot yet determine spatial coordinates that reliably. We need pixel resolution or better don't forget.
But maybe...hmm...if we took an optical sensor from an optical mouse and put it into a hollow stylus which could hold regular pens, I think it could work. The optical sensor would just take relative measurements...not relying on a true 3D cubic/spatial grid, but rather just keeping track of where you are now compared to where you were a second ago, by looking at the surface as you write same as optical mice do now. We could have a spring and sensor at the back of the stylus that is pushing against the pen/pencil and registering the pressure as you press. Hmm....
I am not saying it will never be done, just stating the obstacle that will need to be overcome.
Of course if anyone could do it Apple could.
Probably not. But I think Apple will eventually put that HWR to good use.
Originally posted by dstranathan
Like Making a web camera to compete with the iBot? Niche.
Like bundeling FAX software to kill STF does? Niche.
Like including a 'font manager' like Adobe used to do? Niche.
Like making a presentation app to try and kill MS PP? Niche.
Like possibly buying Roxio and killing Toast? Niche.
Like bundling ("integrating") a web browser? Remember when we were pissed about MS doing this, worried it was hurting poor little Netscape? Niche.
No more niches. Muhahahahahahah
you forgot FCP!!! vs Adobe premiere....
Originally posted by johnq
There would be no way to gauge pressure sensitivity if it is to also allow the pen/pencil to draw.
ah, but you're forgetting the purpose of this "device," which is only to write and sketch (i.e. simple black & white maps, etc.), not for photoshop work or the like. if you notice, the current inkpad doesn't really care about pressure sensitivity at all. all it wants to do is get the gestures so it can translate them. (edit: in fact, pressure sensitivity actually works AGAINST ink, because if you press too lightly during a quick stroke, ink may not pick it up at all (while the wacom controls would see the stroke in any other application), thus negating the effectiveness of the tech to begin with.)
so apple could, as it always does, say "use our device to just write notes and simple sketches, but use wacom's for actual artwork." kinda like the isight is fine for videoconferencing, but you wouldn't use it for your next feature film (or even idvd).
Originally posted by Aquatic
rok: I like it. I really like it. Bluetooth for everything!
Ahem...Didn't I just say "iPen; a bluetooth pen-only input device. Stylus sends signal to bluetooth/USB receiver" before Rok?
(pouts)
Originally posted by johnq
Ahem...Didn't I just say "iPen; a bluetooth pen-only input device. Stylus sends signal to bluetooth/USB receiver" before Rok?
(pouts)
well, yeah, but mine was an adapter that could be added/wrapped around any currently existing pen. though, in fairness to the engineers tasked with creating such a thing, i may be asking a bit too much to cram it all in anything smaller than an complete stylus design, so yours may be the more realistic of the two.
the stylus, though, should have a way to add simple ink refills to it, so that you can still use it as a regular pen, and write on paper to give you instant visual feedback. though if it were inkless and could track on any surface, you could theoretically even draw right on a flat screen. for example, you could then apply pressure to a button on the stylus as you begin to write, and the pen/stylus would track relative to the point where you started writing (which is kinda how inkpad/ink work now... they don't care where exactly on the screen you start writing).
a junior computer experience even.
Yeah, what about the IBM PC Jr.? Oh yeah...
Originally posted by rok
so apple could, as it always does, say "use our device to just write notes and simple sketches, but use wacom's for actual artwork." kinda like the isight is fine for videoconferencing, but you wouldn't use it for your next feature film (or even idvd).
Sorry rok, it's been done.
Great idea, though.
Originally posted by haunebu
Sorry rok, it's been done.
Great idea, though.
damn. well, i can honestly say that i didn't know about nokia's option when i thought of this... that's worth something, right?
plus, it gave me an opportunity to use "brick wrapped in a slice of lemon" for the first time in years. i miss ya, douglas...
This mini tablet is what I wanted Apple to do:
Transmeta powered tablet