"I am the Lord thy God who brought the out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
I'm sorry. I fail to see the connection.
Oops.
I was referring, of course, to 'Thou shalt not kill', which I mistook for the First Commandment having misheard the lyrics to Buju Banton's 'Murderer'.
Thou shalt not kill. Seems pretty damn unequivocal to me.
As a Christian, Fangorn, how do you square your belief that it's OK for the state to kill its citizens with the Commandment given to Moses by the Almighty God that you must not kill?
I was referring, of course, to 'Thou shalt not kill', which I mistook for the First Commandment having misheard the lyrics to Buju Banton's 'Murderer'.
Thou shalt not kill. Seems pretty damn unequivocal to me.
As a Christian, Fangorn, how do you square your belief that it's OK for the state to kill its citizens with the Commandment given to Moses by the Almighty God that you must not kill?
It is the Eighth Commandment and it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. That is, the unlawful taking of life.
Particularly, cross reference with Gen 9:5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
I can get into the case law in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy if you would like.
I know what the Bible says. I've read it several times.
It is the Eighth Commandment and it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. That is, the unlawful taking of life.
Particularly, cross reference with Gen 9:5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
I can get into the case law in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy if you would like.
I know what the Bible says. I've read it several times.
See, though, the bible means literally dick when it comes to whether or not we should use the death penalty. The bible should hold zero weight. We are not a christian country.
Oh, you never responded to my last response to your where you went off on me claiming the system I outlined was all about revenge, which it clearly isn't.
Oh, you never responded to my last response to your where you went off on me claiming the system I outlined was all about revenge, which it clearly isn't.
I think that was the point. Fangorn was probably thinking "now's my chance...I'll change the subject to COMPLETELY AND UNIVERSALLY OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS MADE BY THE BIBLE...that?ll show em."
The problem is...the justice system isn't anywhere near 100% accurate. So here in Illinois, more people have been taken off death row because of new evidence than have been executed. If we could have 100% faith in the justice system, I would be more inclined to support the death penalty.
But as things stand, I have to say someone must be ignorant or stupid to support it. I mean no offense, as everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just haven't heard a good defense of the death penalty in light of the corrupt* justice systems.
*corrupt, not in the sense that they are bought, but just incorrect far too often.
See, though, the bible means literally dick when it comes to whether or not we should use the death penalty. The bible should hold zero weight. We are not a christian country.
Oh, you never responded to my last response to your where you went off on me claiming the system I outlined was all about revenge, which it clearly isn't.
Two reasons: one, I didn?t want to give you a flippant, smart ass answer. It is an issue of defining terms, What is justice? What is revenge?, before an actual intelligent conversation can ensue. I am a very busy person with little time to spare yet when I make a post, I do try to keep it relevant.
As a Christian, I weigh matters in a Christian/Biblical reference. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. I also vote the same way. I am simply being aboveboard and honest about my point of reference. I never said you had to agree.
Second, answering you was a slip in the first place. I find your posts rude, obnoxious, and abrasive and generally avoid commenting/responding to your posts.
I think that was the point. Fangorn was probably thinking "now's my chance...I'll change the subject to COMPLETELY AND UNIVERSALLY OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS MADE BY THE BIBLE...that?ll show em."
I did not change the direction. How one views the death penalty is directly and immediately a result of one religious beliefs. Do you think people are fallen or are they capable of perfection? Is there a soul and/or afterlife or is it all over once you die? How you answer these questions is a direct result of your religious convictions (even if those convictions are atheism) and in turn directly define how you view death and thus the death penalty. Not that everyone is consistent with their religious beliefs.
One of the basic tenets of my faith is that man is not the focal point of determining right and wrong, God is. And that the Bible is God?s Word and therefore the reference point. So when I discuss an issue, it?s the "Bible says," not "I think" because what "I think" doesn?t carry any authority.
But then referencing authority isn?t exactly a strong point in this forum anyway.
It is the Eighth Commandment and it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. That is, the unlawful taking of life.
Particularly, cross reference with Gen 9:5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
I can get into the case law in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy if you would like.
I know what the Bible says. I've read it several times.
I am obviously using my terms in a different context. I think in terms of biblical Law and thus that is my point of reference. According to Old Testament case law applying the ten commandments, abortion is unlawful, ie, morally wrong.
I really wasn't trying to start a discussion on the application of Thou shalt not murder.
Second, answering you was a slip in the first place. I find your posts rude, obnoxious, and abrasive and generally avoid commenting/responding to your posts.
Yes, because saying that I want to make sure that criminals who can be rehabilitated pay their debt to society by learning a skill that will benefit society is rude, obnoxious, and abrasive. It's rude, obnoxious, and abrasive to say that drug users shouldn't be put in the same prison as rapists, armed robbers, and murderers because such a situation only creates worse criminals.
Yes, it's rude, obnoxious, and abrasive to suggest anything intelligent that contradicts your beliefs in your moldy tome.
I am obviously using my terms in a different context. I think in terms of biblical Law and thus that is my point of reference. According to Old Testament case law applying the ten commandments, abortion is unlawful, ie, morally wrong.
I really wasn't trying to start a discussion on the application of Thou shalt not murder.
See, we have these thing called societal norms. They help define a common terminology so that when we speak we can understand eachother. Using your own definitions for terms that are in common usage, such as "unlawful," only muddies the situation.
Please don't screwdriver the banana so that when flapping gums the whole peeps can grok plastic cup, otay?
I am obviously using my terms in a different context. I think in terms of biblical Law and thus that is my point of reference. According to Old Testament case law applying the ten commandments, abortion is unlawful, ie, morally wrong.
I really wasn't trying to start a discussion on the application of Thou shalt not murder.
Well this really is confusing. I went to a few Bible sites and yes, it would seem that Christianity says it's OK to take the life of another human being, as long as it's 'lawful'.
But Leviticus. I see also that in Leviticus (20:13) it says that we must put gay people to death:
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them.
What's your opinion on this? Do you think that we should put gay men to death if they sleep with each other? It's in the Bible, after all, which is your 'frame of reference' as far as deciding what is and is not 'lawful' killing. I've just read it. So, as a committed Christian, do you agree that gay people should be executed?
Anyway, Fangorn, and any any other Christian (or other) pro-deathers, listen:
The death penalty does not work at reducing violent crime or murder. In fact, there is good evidence to say that where the penalty exists, these type of crimes go up ... possibly because of its brutalising effect.
Who says so? Me, taking a guess? Er, no. Pretty much every single peer-reviewed sociological and judicial study, er, ever. Inculding a very expensive recent one by the UN. Do the google yourself, it's so damn easy.
So, bearing in mind this FACT, being THE DEATH PENALTY DOES NOT REDUCE MURDER AT ALL, what reason could you have for wanting it?
Revenge? If you're not doing it to make the world a better place (and you're not, it doesn't work) then I can't think of any other reason other then REVENGE.
How does that fit with a religion based on forgiveness?
Oh, by the way, the US is the only country in the world to openly execute people under 18 in normal judicial process. You can't buy a beer, but you're still old enough to be killed by the state.
Comments
Originally posted by Fangorn
"I am the Lord thy God who brought the out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
I'm sorry. I fail to see the connection.
Oops.
I was referring, of course, to 'Thou shalt not kill', which I mistook for the First Commandment having misheard the lyrics to Buju Banton's 'Murderer'.
Thou shalt not kill. Seems pretty damn unequivocal to me.
As a Christian, Fangorn, how do you square your belief that it's OK for the state to kill its citizens with the Commandment given to Moses by the Almighty God that you must not kill?
keep the christan/buddhist/* religious bs out of this
its a capital crime, implement the punishment & be done
with it.
someday im gonna ship out all the touchy/feely people
to a country where life is really tough & that will
get their priorities straight
Sometimes people forget how good we have it here in the
u.s
so whats wrong in implementing a good justice system
(er dont get me started on ken lay & his cronies)
2c
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
Oops.
I was referring, of course, to 'Thou shalt not kill', which I mistook for the First Commandment having misheard the lyrics to Buju Banton's 'Murderer'.
Thou shalt not kill. Seems pretty damn unequivocal to me.
As a Christian, Fangorn, how do you square your belief that it's OK for the state to kill its citizens with the Commandment given to Moses by the Almighty God that you must not kill?
It is the Eighth Commandment and it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. That is, the unlawful taking of life.
Particularly, cross reference with Gen 9:5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
I can get into the case law in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy if you would like.
I know what the Bible says. I've read it several times.
Originally posted by madmax559
I fully 100% ...11000% support the death penalty
keep the christan/buddhist/* religious bs out of this
its a capital crime, implement the punishment & be done
with it.
someday im gonna ship out all the touchy/feely people
to a country where life is really tough & that will
get their priorities straight
Sometimes people forget how good we have it here in the
u.s
so whats wrong in implementing a good justice system
(er dont get me started on ken lay & his cronies)
2c
sounds like someones been listenin' to that new toby keith, willie nelson tune.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
sounds like someones been listenin' to that new toby keith, willie nelson tune.
er no
Originally posted by Fangorn
It is the Eighth Commandment and it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. That is, the unlawful taking of life.
Particularly, cross reference with Gen 9:5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
I can get into the case law in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy if you would like.
I know what the Bible says. I've read it several times.
See, though, the bible means literally dick when it comes to whether or not we should use the death penalty. The bible should hold zero weight. We are not a christian country.
Oh, you never responded to my last response to your where you went off on me claiming the system I outlined was all about revenge, which it clearly isn't.
Originally posted by BR
Oh, you never responded to my last response to your where you went off on me claiming the system I outlined was all about revenge, which it clearly isn't.
I think that was the point. Fangorn was probably thinking "now's my chance...I'll change the subject to COMPLETELY AND UNIVERSALLY OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS MADE BY THE BIBLE...that?ll show em."
Originally posted by madmax559
I fully 100% ...11000% support the death penalty
The problem is...the justice system isn't anywhere near 100% accurate. So here in Illinois, more people have been taken off death row because of new evidence than have been executed. If we could have 100% faith in the justice system, I would be more inclined to support the death penalty.
But as things stand, I have to say someone must be ignorant or stupid to support it. I mean no offense, as everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just haven't heard a good defense of the death penalty in light of the corrupt* justice systems.
*corrupt, not in the sense that they are bought, but just incorrect far too often.
Originally posted by bunge
The problem is...the justice system isn't anywhere near 100% ......blah blah blah ......
*corrupt, not in the sense that they are bought, but just incorrect far too often.
hmm good point there
i was thinking of sending everyone to azkaban ,.....
Originally posted by BR
See, though, the bible means literally dick when it comes to whether or not we should use the death penalty. The bible should hold zero weight. We are not a christian country.
Oh, you never responded to my last response to your where you went off on me claiming the system I outlined was all about revenge, which it clearly isn't.
Two reasons: one, I didn?t want to give you a flippant, smart ass answer. It is an issue of defining terms, What is justice? What is revenge?, before an actual intelligent conversation can ensue. I am a very busy person with little time to spare yet when I make a post, I do try to keep it relevant.
As a Christian, I weigh matters in a Christian/Biblical reference. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant. I also vote the same way. I am simply being aboveboard and honest about my point of reference. I never said you had to agree.
Second, answering you was a slip in the first place. I find your posts rude, obnoxious, and abrasive and generally avoid commenting/responding to your posts.
Originally posted by DiscoCow
I think that was the point. Fangorn was probably thinking "now's my chance...I'll change the subject to COMPLETELY AND UNIVERSALLY OBJECTIVE STATEMENTS MADE BY THE BIBLE...that?ll show em."
I did not change the direction. How one views the death penalty is directly and immediately a result of one religious beliefs. Do you think people are fallen or are they capable of perfection? Is there a soul and/or afterlife or is it all over once you die? How you answer these questions is a direct result of your religious convictions (even if those convictions are atheism) and in turn directly define how you view death and thus the death penalty. Not that everyone is consistent with their religious beliefs.
One of the basic tenets of my faith is that man is not the focal point of determining right and wrong, God is. And that the Bible is God?s Word and therefore the reference point. So when I discuss an issue, it?s the "Bible says," not "I think" because what "I think" doesn?t carry any authority.
But then referencing authority isn?t exactly a strong point in this forum anyway.
Originally posted by Fangorn
It is the Eighth Commandment and it is properly translated: Thou shalt not murder. That is, the unlawful taking of life.
Particularly, cross reference with Gen 9:5: And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
I can get into the case law in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy if you would like.
I know what the Bible says. I've read it several times.
So then abortion isn't murder?
Originally posted by BRussell
So then abortion isn't murder?
I strongly oppose abortion on the grounds that it is murder (unlawful taking of life).
Originally posted by Fangorn
I strongly oppose abortion on the grounds that it is murder (unlawful taking of life).
Abortion is unlawful.
Originally posted by BRussell
Abortion is unlawful.
I am obviously using my terms in a different context. I think in terms of biblical Law and thus that is my point of reference. According to Old Testament case law applying the ten commandments, abortion is unlawful, ie, morally wrong.
I really wasn't trying to start a discussion on the application of Thou shalt not murder.
Originally posted by Fangorn
Second, answering you was a slip in the first place. I find your posts rude, obnoxious, and abrasive and generally avoid commenting/responding to your posts.
Yes, because saying that I want to make sure that criminals who can be rehabilitated pay their debt to society by learning a skill that will benefit society is rude, obnoxious, and abrasive. It's rude, obnoxious, and abrasive to say that drug users shouldn't be put in the same prison as rapists, armed robbers, and murderers because such a situation only creates worse criminals.
Yes, it's rude, obnoxious, and abrasive to suggest anything intelligent that contradicts your beliefs in your moldy tome.
Have a nice day.
Originally posted by Fangorn
I am obviously using my terms in a different context. I think in terms of biblical Law and thus that is my point of reference. According to Old Testament case law applying the ten commandments, abortion is unlawful, ie, morally wrong.
I really wasn't trying to start a discussion on the application of Thou shalt not murder.
See, we have these thing called societal norms. They help define a common terminology so that when we speak we can understand eachother. Using your own definitions for terms that are in common usage, such as "unlawful," only muddies the situation.
Please don't screwdriver the banana so that when flapping gums the whole peeps can grok plastic cup, otay?
Originally posted by Fangorn
I am obviously using my terms in a different context. I think in terms of biblical Law and thus that is my point of reference. According to Old Testament case law applying the ten commandments, abortion is unlawful, ie, morally wrong.
I really wasn't trying to start a discussion on the application of Thou shalt not murder.
Well this really is confusing. I went to a few Bible sites and yes, it would seem that Christianity says it's OK to take the life of another human being, as long as it's 'lawful'.
But Leviticus. I see also that in Leviticus (20:13) it says that we must put gay people to death:
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them.
What's your opinion on this? Do you think that we should put gay men to death if they sleep with each other? It's in the Bible, after all, which is your 'frame of reference' as far as deciding what is and is not 'lawful' killing. I've just read it. So, as a committed Christian, do you agree that gay people should be executed?
Anyway, Fangorn, and any any other Christian (or other) pro-deathers, listen:
The death penalty does not work at reducing violent crime or murder. In fact, there is good evidence to say that where the penalty exists, these type of crimes go up ... possibly because of its brutalising effect.
Who says so? Me, taking a guess? Er, no. Pretty much every single peer-reviewed sociological and judicial study, er, ever. Inculding a very expensive recent one by the UN. Do the google yourself, it's so damn easy.
So, bearing in mind this FACT, being THE DEATH PENALTY DOES NOT REDUCE MURDER AT ALL, what reason could you have for wanting it?
Revenge? If you're not doing it to make the world a better place (and you're not, it doesn't work) then I can't think of any other reason other then REVENGE.
How does that fit with a religion based on forgiveness?
Oh, by the way, the US is the only country in the world to openly execute people under 18 in normal judicial process. You can't buy a beer, but you're still old enough to be killed by the state.
It doesn't work.
Originally posted by Harald
Wow, Hassan's gay? Whodathunk?
.
No. He's not.
Twat.