Well, maybe this one's definitely got holes - maybe it's been shot up a bit too much to see if it's Swiss.....
Ok, keep me covered, I'm going in (puts on flame retardent suit). Why this story can't be taken at face value:
So they were tipped off that U & O were there but didn't know who was there till after the firefight. Ok.
Now Iraqi's are (rightly or wrongly) disbelieving the photos - this is not a propaganda coup. What would have been the effect of showing a live captured U & O ready for trial ? 100 times better ? 1000 ? More I think..
U & O had ONE bodyguard with them. Something they never, ever did (usually teams of 6 plus) in Saddam's Iraq but do now in US occupied Iraq. Hmmm.
They are together. Ok they don't get on, maybe they made up but together when the US are hunting them ?
They were in Mosul. This is a killer. Anyone who knows anything about Iraq will know that this is the last place they would go - actually I question whether after this period of time ANY of the top cards in the deck would still be in Iraq even. But back to Mosul - the most Saddam-hating town in Iraq, surrounded on all sides by Kurdish populations, many of whom are active fighters, ALL of whom want revenge for Halabja and there's that little matter of the millions of dollars reward...Mosul is a bad choice if you catch my drift.
101st Airborne took 6 hours to take out these two guys, One bodyguard and a 14 year old kid. Odd...
Apparently (according to a white house official speaking to CNN) the bodies were positively identified by Lieutenant General Abid Hamid Mahmud al Tikriti - that's the Ace of Diamonds if you check your card packs. Bit low key for me but we ain't seen or heard nothing from him since his capture either. Hmmm, notice a pattern here ?
There's more but it's time for me to get into my bunker (enters fame-proof room and closes hatch).
1) Iraqi population believed the pictures showed, and where quite happy of it ( i heard this on france info this morning)
2) what is the interest for US to twist the truth ? : immediate gain of popularity for Bush, but what will the gain when we will finatly discover that they are still alive ?
3) perhaps they where not hide in the proper place, but some superior mind, said that the best to be hidden in, is the place where nobody expect you to be.
I'm wondering why they haven't done the DNA testing they said they would.
After all, they said they had Saddam's DNA at the beginning of the war (anyone remember the house that was decimated?), why aren't they using it now?
Also, these guys could have given up information that would have been vital to the war effort, including the possible locations of WOMD and maybe even Saddam Hussein.
They had 2 semi automatic weapons and would have run out of ammunition eventually (yes, I'm aware the US troops didn't know this). Plus, if there had been any basement or tunnels at the compound, it's fairly evident they would have used them rather then fighting back (especially if one of them committed suicide).
It would have been much more beneficial to capture them both, and have them tried for war crimes / crimes against humanity. But oh well, now the government is splashing pictures and videos of two dead bodies all over the world.
OMG like, in Counterstrike, youcan totally like capture teh guys insted of shooting them in the face. If the soldiers got shot they should have like taken a health pack for powerup if there life meter went to low.
It looks like Uday was killed with a blunt object. My first impression seeing the bodies on the news this morning was that it was obvious he had his head beaten in, either before death or after. It appeared that every bone in his head was obliterated.
Maybe things didn't go down the way the military said (big news) or maybe it did.
I heard a report on CNN that described how they "filled in" the bullet holes in their heads with morticians' putty. Eeew! They do look like wax dummies, it's obvious they did a professional morticians' job on them -- their eyes sewn shut, heads filled in, cleaned up pre-war-like (mustache on one, thin beard on the other). Seems reasonable that they did this so they would be more recognizable, at least see their features more clearly, though it is sort of "tampering."
I also heard that there were a plenty of arms in the house, not to mention that it wasn't just those two with their guns of course. I had the impression this wasn't a big enough compound to think of tunnels and such. It sounded like a big house with a big yard.
As has been said before by pretty much everyone no matter what side of the "issue" you're on, it would have been better to capture them. Oh well.
For killing Uday and Qusay, and for so much more, Iraqis are grateful to America.
BY AYAD RAHIM
Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:01 a.m.
Quote:
For years the very mention of the names Uday and Qusay sent fear into the hearts of the Iraqi people. Now, thanks to the coalition forces, Iraqis are free of their terror. But others continue to wreak havoc in my native country. As pro-Saddam elements attack coalition troops almost daily, we mustn't forget how American, British and Australian soldiers have conducted themselves with exemplary humanity and heroism since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom...
Hilarious !! This one is straight from the Oval Office I guess, would have been the CIA but they're kind of less than happy with the Bush admin so this kind of work has been delegated...
Do you have ANY proof of this? Sorry, that's a rhetorical question. Of course you don't. Arguing from the facts is not your strong suit.
Quote:
... Actually (I can't believe I'm asking) but is there ANY chance of a DISCUSSION on these sort of things on AO ? It's basically ping-pong isn't it ? It doesn't even have to be a sensible one, pretty please ?
Discussion? Here you are making a wild claim that this is straight from the Oval Office and we're supposed to believe you're interested in a DISCUSSION?
Quote:
... Every Iraqi (virtually) hated Saddam...
And if you had had your way, Saddam would still be in power.
What's your excuse for this classic one-liner ? Discuss - go on, you know you want to....how do you know I think this ? Facts please.
We've already gone around on this one. I explained myself. The argument really isn't that hard to follow. It was the war that removed Saddam Hussein from power. If you were against the war, you were against the very mechanism by which Saddam was deposed. Absent any credible alternative (and I've invited you more than once now to present an alternative), you were against his removal from power. It doesn't matter how much you personally may dislike him. The anti-war position, if it had carried the day, would have had consequences and the continuation of Saddam in power would have been the prime consequence.
I've grasped all that - it's the assumption that there was 'no-other way' possible and your categorical future-predicting assertion that if things hadn't gone down the way they did Saddam would still be in power I have trouble with...
Fine. Then map out the alternative scenario by which he would have lost power. You have yet to do this.
Quote:
Personally, I'm not fixated on Saddam in the same way I get the impression you might be...
Of course you wouldn't be. You're without an answer so you're quick to move on to something, anything, else.
Quote:
... My question would rather be "Are the Iraqi people better off now... ?"
Yes.
Quote:
I have my answer and I guess I have yours too but my point here is that at the end of the day if the Iraqis are going to get what they want for themselves (i.e not what either Saddam or the US dishes out)...
Not what Saddam dishes out because he can't dish it out anymore. That wasn't the case a little while ago.
Quote:
Actually, I think the US has liberated them in a certain sense...
I'm not one of these people who give a toss about being rude or having insults flying at me but if we're going to discuss then you've really got to stop telling me what I think...
I invited you SEVERAL times to present an alternative. You're the one who kept changing the subject. If you want me to know what you think, it's really quite simple. Instead of changing the subject just answer the damn question. With THIS post you have FINALLY at least made a stab at an answer...
Quote:
My answer is a simple one: they could have armed the Kurds and encouraged a rebellion which they would back-up militarily.
Well, that was basically how the Republican Guard was defeated in the north. Once we couldn't bring the 4th ID in through Turkey, we did pretty much what you said we should have done. That clearly was a good strategy for that part of the country. It's not so clear how the rest of Iraq would have been liberated, though.
Quote:
But then the issue was never 'getting rid of Saddam' like you so ardently believe...
Ummm... because you say so?
Quote:
Bravo ! Not like you really give a toss what life is like for the average Iraqi these days...
Why wouldn't I?
Quote:
... I suppose you really do think that people with whole families blown away, houses bombed out, no electricity are better off just because you hated Saddam...
I suppose you think families whose loved ones were tortured or ended up in mass graves are worse off now because you have an interest in discrediting the US's actions there.
Quote:
... What is your interest anyway ? Passion for the middle east ? Love and respect for the Arab nation ? Hatred of oppression ?
I have enough respect for Iraqis to believe they can create something a hell of a lot better with Saddam gone and our help, than they could have had with his boot heel on their necks. Where's your respect?
Quote:
Err...No. You REALLY don't get it do you ?
You REALLY don't get it. I fully expected the aftermath of the war to be difficult. I was never under the illusion that our soldiers were safe now. There's still a LOT of work to be done but if you think we are without friends in Iraq, you're wrong.
Quote:
One more time: It's not about Saddam .
Of course it WAS about Saddam.
Quote:
Saddam kept the Islamicist fundamentalists in check...
That was the assumption that led us to leave Saddam in power at the end of the first Gulf War. They may have been kept in check in Iraq but that clearly didn't stop it's rise throughout the Islamic world. Because we were unwilling to lend a hand to anyone wishing to fashion a credible alternative, fundamentalism flourished. In short, it wasn't much of a policy.
Comments
Originally posted by segovius
Well, maybe this one's definitely got holes - maybe it's been shot up a bit too much to see if it's Swiss.....
Ok, keep me covered, I'm going in (puts on flame retardent suit). Why this story can't be taken at face value:
So they were tipped off that U & O were there but didn't know who was there till after the firefight. Ok.
Now Iraqi's are (rightly or wrongly) disbelieving the photos - this is not a propaganda coup. What would have been the effect of showing a live captured U & O ready for trial ? 100 times better ? 1000 ? More I think..
U & O had ONE bodyguard with them. Something they never, ever did (usually teams of 6 plus) in Saddam's Iraq but do now in US occupied Iraq. Hmmm.
They are together. Ok they don't get on, maybe they made up but together when the US are hunting them ?
They were in Mosul. This is a killer. Anyone who knows anything about Iraq will know that this is the last place they would go - actually I question whether after this period of time ANY of the top cards in the deck would still be in Iraq even. But back to Mosul - the most Saddam-hating town in Iraq, surrounded on all sides by Kurdish populations, many of whom are active fighters, ALL of whom want revenge for Halabja and there's that little matter of the millions of dollars reward...Mosul is a bad choice if you catch my drift.
101st Airborne took 6 hours to take out these two guys, One bodyguard and a 14 year old kid. Odd...
Apparently (according to a white house official speaking to CNN) the bodies were positively identified by Lieutenant General Abid Hamid Mahmud al Tikriti - that's the Ace of Diamonds if you check your card packs. Bit low key for me but we ain't seen or heard nothing from him since his capture either. Hmmm, notice a pattern here ?
There's more but it's time for me to get into my bunker (enters fame-proof room and closes hatch).
1) Iraqi population believed the pictures showed, and where quite happy of it ( i heard this on france info this morning)
2) what is the interest for US to twist the truth ? : immediate gain of popularity for Bush, but what will the gain when we will finatly discover that they are still alive ?
3) perhaps they where not hide in the proper place, but some superior mind, said that the best to be hidden in, is the place where nobody expect you to be.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
1) Iraqi population believed the pictures showed, and where quite happy of it ( i heard this on france info this morning)
That doesn´t count. The french media is screwed and filled with propaganda...or...I mean...
Originally posted by Anders
That doesn´t count. The french media is screwed and filled with propaganda...or...I mean...
it's even worse than that : i am totally biased, screwed, and spit propaganda all around these boards.
The problem is that now (what with all the mortician's makeup) they look like wax heads....
Here's the link:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/870749.asp?0cv=CA01
After all, they said they had Saddam's DNA at the beginning of the war (anyone remember the house that was decimated?), why aren't they using it now?
Also, these guys could have given up information that would have been vital to the war effort, including the possible locations of WOMD and maybe even Saddam Hussein.
They had 2 semi automatic weapons and would have run out of ammunition eventually (yes, I'm aware the US troops didn't know this). Plus, if there had been any basement or tunnels at the compound, it's fairly evident they would have used them rather then fighting back (especially if one of them committed suicide).
It would have been much more beneficial to capture them both, and have them tried for war crimes / crimes against humanity. But oh well, now the government is splashing pictures and videos of two dead bodies all over the world.
High quality CBS Realvideo stream of the bodies.
Originally posted by midwinter
The problem is that now (what with all the mortician's makeup) they look like wax heads....
Well, it was awfully nice of them to give a little 'shave n' a haircut' to the deceased.
[They even look a lot more like 'themselves'! No trickery here, that's for sure.
Edited by powerdoc : removed images that may hurt people
as for the
vowing some form of revenge and the Fedayeen will increase operations also if they believe it.
the Fedayeen already released a video tape saying they would avenge the death of Saddam's sons.
DIFFUSE THE BOMB! GO JOE!
It looks like Uday was killed with a blunt object. My first impression seeing the bodies on the news this morning was that it was obvious he had his head beaten in, either before death or after. It appeared that every bone in his head was obliterated.
Maybe things didn't go down the way the military said (big news) or maybe it did.
I also heard that there were a plenty of arms in the house, not to mention that it wasn't just those two with their guns of course. I had the impression this wasn't a big enough compound to think of tunnels and such. It sounded like a big house with a big yard.
As has been said before by pretty much everyone no matter what side of the "issue" you're on, it would have been better to capture them. Oh well.
For killing Uday and Qusay, and for so much more, Iraqis are grateful to America.
BY AYAD RAHIM
Saturday, July 26, 2003 12:01 a.m.
For years the very mention of the names Uday and Qusay sent fear into the hearts of the Iraqi people. Now, thanks to the coalition forces, Iraqis are free of their terror. But others continue to wreak havoc in my native country. As pro-Saddam elements attack coalition troops almost daily, we mustn't forget how American, British and Australian soldiers have conducted themselves with exemplary humanity and heroism since the beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom...
Originally posted by segovius
Hilarious !! This one is straight from the Oval Office I guess, would have been the CIA but they're kind of less than happy with the Bush admin so this kind of work has been delegated...
Do you have ANY proof of this? Sorry, that's a rhetorical question. Of course you don't. Arguing from the facts is not your strong suit.
... Actually (I can't believe I'm asking) but is there ANY chance of a DISCUSSION on these sort of things on AO ? It's basically ping-pong isn't it ? It doesn't even have to be a sensible one, pretty please ?
Discussion? Here you are making a wild claim that this is straight from the Oval Office and we're supposed to believe you're interested in a DISCUSSION?
... Every Iraqi (virtually) hated Saddam...
And if you had had your way, Saddam would still be in power.
Originally posted by segovius
What's your excuse for this classic one-liner ? Discuss - go on, you know you want to....how do you know I think this ? Facts please.
We've already gone around on this one. I explained myself. The argument really isn't that hard to follow. It was the war that removed Saddam Hussein from power. If you were against the war, you were against the very mechanism by which Saddam was deposed. Absent any credible alternative (and I've invited you more than once now to present an alternative), you were against his removal from power. It doesn't matter how much you personally may dislike him. The anti-war position, if it had carried the day, would have had consequences and the continuation of Saddam in power would have been the prime consequence.
Originally posted by segovius
I've grasped all that - it's the assumption that there was 'no-other way' possible and your categorical future-predicting assertion that if things hadn't gone down the way they did Saddam would still be in power I have trouble with...
Fine. Then map out the alternative scenario by which he would have lost power. You have yet to do this.
Personally, I'm not fixated on Saddam in the same way I get the impression you might be...
Of course you wouldn't be. You're without an answer so you're quick to move on to something, anything, else.
... My question would rather be "Are the Iraqi people better off now... ?"
Yes.
I have my answer and I guess I have yours too but my point here is that at the end of the day if the Iraqis are going to get what they want for themselves (i.e not what either Saddam or the US dishes out)...
Not what Saddam dishes out because he can't dish it out anymore. That wasn't the case a little while ago.
Actually, I think the US has liberated them in a certain sense...
Ya think?
Originally posted by segovius
I'm not one of these people who give a toss about being rude or having insults flying at me but if we're going to discuss then you've really got to stop telling me what I think...
I invited you SEVERAL times to present an alternative. You're the one who kept changing the subject. If you want me to know what you think, it's really quite simple. Instead of changing the subject just answer the damn question. With THIS post you have FINALLY at least made a stab at an answer...
My answer is a simple one: they could have armed the Kurds and encouraged a rebellion which they would back-up militarily.
Well, that was basically how the Republican Guard was defeated in the north. Once we couldn't bring the 4th ID in through Turkey, we did pretty much what you said we should have done. That clearly was a good strategy for that part of the country. It's not so clear how the rest of Iraq would have been liberated, though.
But then the issue was never 'getting rid of Saddam' like you so ardently believe...
Ummm... because you say so?
Bravo ! Not like you really give a toss what life is like for the average Iraqi these days...
Why wouldn't I?
... I suppose you really do think that people with whole families blown away, houses bombed out, no electricity are better off just because you hated Saddam...
I suppose you think families whose loved ones were tortured or ended up in mass graves are worse off now because you have an interest in discrediting the US's actions there.
... What is your interest anyway ? Passion for the middle east ? Love and respect for the Arab nation ? Hatred of oppression ?
I have enough respect for Iraqis to believe they can create something a hell of a lot better with Saddam gone and our help, than they could have had with his boot heel on their necks. Where's your respect?
Err...No. You REALLY don't get it do you ?
You REALLY don't get it. I fully expected the aftermath of the war to be difficult. I was never under the illusion that our soldiers were safe now. There's still a LOT of work to be done but if you think we are without friends in Iraq, you're wrong.
One more time: It's not about Saddam .
Of course it WAS about Saddam.
Saddam kept the Islamicist fundamentalists in check...
That was the assumption that led us to leave Saddam in power at the end of the first Gulf War. They may have been kept in check in Iraq but that clearly didn't stop it's rise throughout the Islamic world. Because we were unwilling to lend a hand to anyone wishing to fashion a credible alternative, fundamentalism flourished. In short, it wasn't much of a policy.
Originally posted by segovius
Personally, I don't expect an upsurge in violence and it hasn't happened yet.
Well, the opposite is certainly not the case either...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html
Originally posted by segovius
Looks like the conspiracy's over guys- just heard Saddam's latest tape admitting the death of the sons...
the tape could be fake