Yeah, I know the Angry Flower thing. It's very funny and let's me know I'm not alone.
Now, I don't have the copy editor experience to back me up on this, but is this use of an apostrophe correct? I thought (maybe wrongly) that 'let's' was a shorter version of 'let us', as in 'Let's go to the park'. In Ensign's post it reads to me as "It is very funny and let us me know I am not alone". Personally, I would've used just plain old 'lets', but maybe I'm just a big dummy.
we's evolvin' th' language. it's kind of silly to get in such a huff over something so trivial. language is a means of relaying ideas/thoughts/occurrences/whatever to others (or to one's self). if the message gets across, language has succeeded, 3v3n 1f th3 l4ngv4g3 is 4 g4rbl3d v3rs10n 0f 1ts f0rm3r s3lf.
part of the problem is that there is a degree of urgency to the internet, only to be compounded by instant messaging, chat rooms, and forums such as these. people are trying to get their ideas down as quickly as possible, and in their haste, make some grammar blunders from time to time. personally, i make all kinds of mistakes due to my crappy typing ability. some i catch, others i don't. yeah, i know, i don't use caps. that's by choice. however, any way you slice it, i'm not going to loose sleep over it.
I was in an upscale clothing store last weekend that featured a sign reading "Shawl's $39.99".
Just underneath which was $39.99 in loose change that belonged to a chap called Shawl...
Seriously though, even the English can't always speak/write our language correctly (or should i say in accordance with accepted grammar and spelling conventions).
Certainly in our office the apostraphe problem is one of our pet hates - someone was sent an email littered with such mistakes and with replied with a simple "I don't understand what you have written"
Apologists for "internet typing" have a leaky boat. The occasional discussion about grammar, spelling and punctuation is a good thing for any messageboard. Some people will never discover the mistakes of their ways without a friendly correction from someone who knows better.
Well said.
Quote:
BTW, I do use periods as pauses quite often on the internet, and don't plan on changing my ways....(like that, see?)....I wonder what that's considered to be by grammarians.
It's called an ellipsis. It's used to denote omitted text, not pauses, but is invariably abused and "misspelled". It's comprised of exactly three periods, not four, not five, not however many you want. There are also never any spaces before or after an ellipsis. Actually they're not periods at all, it's a separate one character glyph mapped to option ;
Here is a perfect usage with which we are all familiar.
"User's of build 7B39 were informed to copy all of their data off encrypted FileVault images created under the seed before upgrading to the latest version of Panther."
(Did you notice how I used an ellipsis to shorten your quote?!)
I was 99.9% sure, but thought that there might be a hidden exception for when the author of the thread trips on his own virtual tongue (in his second post no less).
It's comprised of exactly three periods, not four, not five, not however many you want.
For someone who gets so uptight about these things, you'd think that you could at least make sure that you're right before spreading misinformation. (You missed several valid exceptions from your initial post as well but the conversation had moved on so I didn't bother posting).
You *can* have 4 periods, you *can* use it for pauses, not just omissions and you *are* supposed to have spaces before and after ellipses in certain situations.
Since you mentioned Star Wars, read this linked article and be sure to check out the footnoted links.
Unlike dying French, stultified & legislated into an iron lung existence with linguistic gendarmes hovering, english is vibrant and full of quirky side roads of evolution. It is one of the most abmbiguous languages and all the more beautiful for it..!
why Dying ? Francophonia is huge, much smaller than english, chinese smaller than portugese and spanish, but sufficiantly big enough. There will be plenty of languages who will die before french.
French also evolve. The gendarmes cannot stop his evolutions. It's not because somepeople replaced E mail by the french equivalent Courriel that nothing change. None of my friend will ever use the word courriel. The gendarme can swear, it will change nothing.
Creating a french neologism to replace a commonly used english word like chat is stupid. But replacing a french word by an english one, just to be more fashion is not much better. If you love english, just try to learn it properly and enjoy english speaking forums. Do not create an horrible mix of french and english.
Use the english words when they are orginal trademarks like internet , e mail, but use french one like reseau instead of network.
New words representating new concepts are good, but replacing current word by some others foreigns ones, who means absolutely the same thing, do not bring anything more.
For example , when i say cappucino, or expresso, it's not only replace the word coffee, but it means also a special way to make it, and more the italian way. And we know how good italian coffee are ( i just drinked one in courmayer and i have to say it was really good). The word expresso, brings something more in the language, so it's interesting to incorporate it. Changing the french word, cafe to coffee will not bring anything.
You *can* have 4 periods, you *can* use it for pauses, not just omissions and you *are* supposed to have spaces before and after ellipses in certain situations.
The Chicago Manual of Style says that "other punctuation [besides the ellipsis, that is] may be used on either side of the three ellipsis dots if it helps the sense or better shows what has been omitted." Then, later, it says "When the last part of a quoted sentence is omitted and what remains is still grammatically complete, four dots ? a period [or exclamation/question mark] followed by three ellipsis dots ? are used to indicate the omission." And finally, "Three dots ? no period ? are used at the end of a quoted sentence that is deliberately and grammatically incomplete."
Authority: Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed. U of Chicago P: Chicago. 1993. 373-375.
edit2:
And as for:
Quote:
The "four period" scenario is an ellipsis followed by a period, not a four dot ellipsis.
Yes. I know. That's what the article I linked to said. Whereas you said:
Quote:
It's comprised of exactly three periods, not four, not five, not however many you want.
So I thought I'd clear that up for you since you were wrong, wrong and ambigious (i.e. wrong) in your three statements about the use of ellipses.
" French also evolves. The Gendarmes cannot stop his evolutions. It's not because some people replaced E-mail by the french equivalent Courriel that nothing change. None of my friends will ever use the word courriel. The gendarme can swear, it will change nothing.
My point exactly.
" Creating a french neologism to replace a commonly used english word like chat is stupid. But replacing a french word by an english one, just to be more fashion is not much better.
Fashion in language is the same as fashion in clothes etc..It is superficial and it passes.
" If you love english, just try to learn it properly and enjoy english speaking forums. Do not create an horrible mix of french and english"
Actually that is the way English evolved...by mixing horribly all the latin, Greek, French and other bits it could grind together..That is the whole point...languages are a like the landscapes they inhabit..filled with things that are seemingly timeless like the mountains, but with trees & flowers that show the liguistic seasons of change...
"New words representing new concepts are good, but replacing current word by some others foreigns ones, who means absolutely the same thing, do not bring anything more."
True, but none of us will live long enough to know which will stick, and which will be lost...or completely changed in meaning and value.
Comments
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Yeah, I know the Angry Flower thing. It's very funny and let's me know I'm not alone.
Now, I don't have the copy editor experience to back me up on this, but is this use of an apostrophe correct? I thought (maybe wrongly) that 'let's' was a shorter version of 'let us', as in 'Let's go to the park'. In Ensign's post it reads to me as "It is very funny and let us me know I am not alone". Personally, I would've used just plain old 'lets', but maybe I'm just a big dummy.
Originally posted by thuh Freak
we's evolvin' th' language.
In the wrong direction 17 533|\\/|'s.
Shaka-Speerz nuspeek
I was in an upscale clothing store last weekend that featured a sign reading "Shawl's $39.99".
Just underneath which was $39.99 in loose change that belonged to a chap called Shawl...
Seriously though, even the English can't always speak/write our language correctly (or should i say in accordance with accepted grammar and spelling conventions).
Certainly in our office the apostraphe problem is one of our pet hates - someone was sent an email littered with such mistakes and with replied with a simple "I don't understand what you have written"
Originally posted by drewprops
First off, this is a great topic.
Apologists for "internet typing" have a leaky boat. The occasional discussion about grammar, spelling and punctuation is a good thing for any messageboard. Some people will never discover the mistakes of their ways without a friendly correction from someone who knows better.
Well said.
BTW, I do use periods as pauses quite often on the internet, and don't plan on changing my ways....(like that, see?)....I wonder what that's considered to be by grammarians.
It's called an ellipsis. It's used to denote omitted text, not pauses, but is invariably abused and "misspelled". It's comprised of exactly three periods, not four, not five, not however many you want. There are also never any spaces before or after an ellipsis. Actually they're not periods at all, it's a separate one character glyph mapped to option ;
Here is a perfect usage with which we are all familiar.
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away?
"User's of build 7B39 were informed to copy all of their data off encrypted FileVault images created under the seed before upgrading to the latest version of Panther."
Sigh.
Originally posted by 709
...maybe I'm just a big dummy.
You are not a dummy.
(Did you notice how I used an ellipsis to shorten your quote?!)
Originally posted by audiopollution
You are not a dummy.
(Did you notice how I used an ellipsis to shorten your quote?!)
I was 99.9% sure, but thought that there might be a hidden exception for when the author of the thread trips on his own virtual tongue (in his second post no less).
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
It's comprised of exactly three periods, not four, not five, not however many you want.
For someone who gets so uptight about these things, you'd think that you could at least make sure that you're right before spreading misinformation. (You missed several valid exceptions from your initial post as well but the conversation had moved on so I didn't bother posting).
You *can* have 4 periods, you *can* use it for pauses, not just omissions and you *are* supposed to have spaces before and after ellipses in certain situations.
Since you mentioned Star Wars, read this linked article and be sure to check out the footnoted links.
http://www.delime.com/milsweb/fourdots.asp
Originally posted by Aquafire
Unlike dying French, stultified & legislated into an iron lung existence with linguistic gendarmes hovering, english is vibrant and full of quirky side roads of evolution. It is one of the most abmbiguous languages and all the more beautiful for it..!
why Dying ? Francophonia is huge, much smaller than english, chinese smaller than portugese and spanish, but sufficiantly big enough. There will be plenty of languages who will die before french.
French also evolve. The gendarmes cannot stop his evolutions. It's not because somepeople replaced E mail by the french equivalent Courriel that nothing change. None of my friend will ever use the word courriel. The gendarme can swear, it will change nothing.
Creating a french neologism to replace a commonly used english word like chat is stupid. But replacing a french word by an english one, just to be more fashion is not much better. If you love english, just try to learn it properly and enjoy english speaking forums. Do not create an horrible mix of french and english.
Use the english words when they are orginal trademarks like internet , e mail, but use french one like reseau instead of network.
New words representating new concepts are good, but replacing current word by some others foreigns ones, who means absolutely the same thing, do not bring anything more.
For example , when i say cappucino, or expresso, it's not only replace the word coffee, but it means also a special way to make it, and more the italian way. And we know how good italian coffee are ( i just drinked one in courmayer and i have to say it was really good). The word expresso, brings something more in the language, so it's interesting to incorporate it. Changing the french word, cafe to coffee will not bring anything.
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
You *can* have 4 periods, you *can* use it for pauses, not just omissions and you *are* supposed to have spaces before and after ellipses in certain situations.
http://www.delime.com/milsweb/fourdots.asp
The "four period" scenario is an ellipsis followed by a period, not a four dot ellipsis. A minor difference yes, but technically true.
Your link makes no reference to spaces or pauses being permissible.
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
Since you mentioned Star Wars, read this linked article and BE SURE TO CHECK OUT THE FOOTNOTED LINKS.
http://www.delime.com/milsweb/fourdots.asp
emphasis added.
edit:
to save you the effort
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/ellipsis.htm
http://writing.lifetips.com/Cat.asp__Q__id__E__56462
and
The Chicago Manual of Style says that "other punctuation [besides the ellipsis, that is] may be used on either side of the three ellipsis dots if it helps the sense or better shows what has been omitted." Then, later, it says "When the last part of a quoted sentence is omitted and what remains is still grammatically complete, four dots ? a period [or exclamation/question mark] followed by three ellipsis dots ? are used to indicate the omission." And finally, "Three dots ? no period ? are used at the end of a quoted sentence that is deliberately and grammatically incomplete."
Authority: Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed. U of Chicago P: Chicago. 1993. 373-375.
edit2:
And as for:
The "four period" scenario is an ellipsis followed by a period, not a four dot ellipsis.
Yes. I know. That's what the article I linked to said. Whereas you said:
It's comprised of exactly three periods, not four, not five, not however many you want.
So I thought I'd clear that up for you since you were wrong, wrong and ambigious (i.e. wrong) in your three statements about the use of ellipses.
" French also evolves. The Gendarmes cannot stop his evolutions. It's not because some people replaced E-mail by the french equivalent Courriel that nothing change. None of my friends will ever use the word courriel. The gendarme can swear, it will change nothing.
My point exactly.
" Creating a french neologism to replace a commonly used english word like chat is stupid. But replacing a french word by an english one, just to be more fashion is not much better.
Fashion in language is the same as fashion in clothes etc..It is superficial and it passes.
" If you love english, just try to learn it properly and enjoy english speaking forums. Do not create an horrible mix of french and english"
Actually that is the way English evolved...by mixing horribly all the latin, Greek, French and other bits it could grind together..That is the whole point...languages are a like the landscapes they inhabit..filled with things that are seemingly timeless like the mountains, but with trees & flowers that show the liguistic seasons of change...
"New words representing new concepts are good, but replacing current word by some others foreigns ones, who means absolutely the same thing, do not bring anything more."
True, but none of us will live long enough to know which will stick, and which will be lost...or completely changed in meaning and value.