The Market Share Mac



  • Reply 61 of 77
    [quote]Originally posted by Buggy:

    <strong>My experianced answer is that it is not nearly as much of a factor as is the Biased IT managers and their abilities to set policies</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Those idiots are only there in the first place because Apple priced themselves out of education opening the door to the A+ Certified bums.

    [quote]Originally posted by Buggy:

    <strong>My answer...NO WAY! I need a minimum of a G4 to do my work.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Most people don't use altivec applications, and with a half decent videocard Mac OS X is more than usable.

    I would rather have a fast G3 with a good Radeon or GeForce videocard than a G4.

    [quote]Originally posted by Buggy:

    <strong>Market share does not necessarily make for a good product or for a solid company.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Marketshare is power, if Apple marketshare continues to fall it will be very difficult for Apple to maintain credibility with developers.

    No developers means no software, no software means no platform.
  • Reply 62 of 77
    quickquick Posts: 227member
    To make it perfectly clear, I have absolutely no clue how Apple is going to address the problem of a decreasing marketshare. Somehow though I believe it isn't going to be solved by introducing new or updated state of the art hardware at a resonable (cheap) price-point. Marketshare is not related to the quality of Apple's hardware IMHO.

    The best remark in this thread so far has been placed by Amorph:

    [quote] ... especially if your platform is viewed as a risk by most potential buyers.


    THIS describes best where Apple needs to focus in order to increase marketshare. Make Macs a no-risk platform where everybody feels comfortable. How? I don't know...

    [ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: Quick ]</p>
  • Reply 63 of 77
    screedscreed Posts: 1,077member
    Here's something bizarre that just zipped through my head: What if Apple's strategy to address market share is not by hardware or hardware cost?

    The point about Wintel PC's being dominant in market X and Y because of IT management bias is a very good one. (Our management changed hand once to a person that wanted to convert all software -- web, email, groupware, file serving, everything -- to Microsoft -- We're still recovering).

    Hence, the embracing of Unix and standards. Microsoft has won a lot but the security breaches, new licensing schemes and .Net/Palladium has really, really spooked some of the most die-hard Microserfs.

    Enter OS X. It doesn't get said enough how many Windows and *nix geeks are eyeing the OS like a man in a faultering marriage. Look at Slashdot. Apple gets regular coverage now that the Mac OS is "one of them."

  • Reply 64 of 77
    quickquick Posts: 227member
    [quote]Originally posted by sCreeD:

    <strong>Here's something bizarre that just zipped through my head: What if Apple's strategy to address market share is not by hardware or hardware cost?</strong><hr></blockquote>

    This is exactly what I thought of one post earlier than yours. I was afraid of being flamed because of this weird idea. Now I feel much more confident after your acknowledgement.
  • Reply 65 of 77
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    More brain power is needed to solve the "Intelligence Test" puzzle in AppleOutsider. Maybe someone from this discussion can do it? (Just a little spot commercial.)
  • Reply 66 of 77
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    I've been saying that for a long time.

    The #1 enemy of the Mac, as far as gaining marketshare, is the fear of being stranded on an island. The network effect works strongly in favor of Windows, and it's aided by the number of so-called IT people who are trained in nothing but Microsoft technology, or by people driven by the feedback-loop nature of the network effect: Windows is the future because it's the present. It's safe. Whence the Switcher campaign: The low-hanging fruit are people who are so fed up with the "safe" choice that they're willing to look at alternatives.

    No matter what Apple does, there will be a period of some unknown length where market share does not budge significantly, simply because they are swimming upstream. However, they will budge, and when they do it will be because of two things: First, Mac OS X is giving them cred among IT people that they've never had (to understate). Then, you have the Apple Stores and VARs ready to let the curious get hands-on experience, which is the best possible way to counter the fear of the unknown that keeps Macs in a niche. Macs were in schools for so long because teachers were their own IT professionals. When the "real" IT people were brought in by nutbars who think schools should be run like businesses, in came Windows and out went Macs - just like in business. Price is just a current alibi for not buying Macs. If Apple introduced an educational price of $1.50 for the eMac, they'd think of some other reason not to buy Macs - believe me, I've seen this. So what do you do? You offer the IT people something that they like, and do MS one better by keeping it as a platform that the end user likes as well. The dirty secret of Microsoft's majority share is that they won it by appealing to a powerful minority of people who impose their decisions on tens or hundreds of thousands of people, or more.

    Now, let me make clear what I'm not saying: I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't lower prices. I think the introductions since last November are evidence enough that Apple is on that ball. Nor am I saying that Apple shouldn't design for the needs of the educational market - that's why the eMac exists. After all, the product has to be compelling. But that doesn't mean a so-called Mac with the lowest achievable price point, it means something like the iBook that is a desirable product at a good price. And, coming back to the main point, it doesn't matter how good the product is if people won't even look at it.

    [ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
  • Reply 67 of 77
    cubistcubist Posts: 954member
    I realize that this is in the "Future Hardware" thread, but reading these comments, I realized that the key thing Apple needs to increase market share is more software.

    Not "more of the same" software, but neat stuff that people will like. Like the Hypercard stacks that people used to write for anything under the sun. PC users always ask "but what do you run on it?" We might say "We have Office just like yours." They shrug and say "So what? My Lindows PC runs Office too - and it's cheaper." We don't need to attack the cheaper part, we need a better answer to the first question.

    The Mac programmer community has dwindled even more than the marketshare. I like the "loaner Mac" suggestion, but to that I'd like to add "get RealBasic or Supercard 4 or CodeWarrior for Mac OS X ($99 special ending soon) and learn to program!"
  • Reply 68 of 77
    rhumgodrhumgod Posts: 1,289member
    [quote]Originally posted by cubist:

    <strong>The Mac programmer community has dwindled even more than the marketshare.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    I think there are <a href=""; target="_blank">plenty of applications</a> maybe you mean just innovative ones. iLife sums up the difference in the digital hub theory. PCs suck, Macs don't. Simple as that. Have you used AppleScript Studio lately? WOW!

    You want professional apps, they're all there...Photoshop, Office, Maya, Shake, Quickbooks/Quicken, etc...

    I think market share is gained first in business and the trickle-down affect to home users, as has always been. Business users have gotten pissed off by Microsoft's current pricing and soon to be big-brother Palladium nonsense. Screw them. People are getting smart enough to realize there are choices. They just don't see enough of the Mac in front of their face.

    [ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: Rhumgod ]</p>
  • Reply 69 of 77
    rhumgodrhumgod Posts: 1,289member
    I think a lot of the risk being discussed here is valid. There was a great risk factor in our company to purchase our Marketing/PR dept Macs. Took 3 years, but it happened. And they got top of the line models, but then, they use top of the line tools as well.

    I think the end user isn't the one needing convincing. They will use whatever is on their desks. IT depts, and more important, IT managers are the ones who need convincing.

    A cross-country, free, getting to know Mac OS X tour probably would not work - IT managers wouldn't attend. You'd get the typical home-user, switcher type. I think serious business/school marketing is what they need to do. Perhaps an internet web cast would do some good.

    Maybe a free copy of Mac OS X to each IT manager so they can observe it (like they just extended to schools at Macworld).

    Maybe an increase in the marketing personnel at Apple Stores to get them to actually make sales calls or just spread the word. It seems Apple's marketing makes the user come to them, rather than going out into the real world and doing some promotion and sales.

    Maybe a jab at Microsoft's latest business practices and how a business shouldn't be so close minded about platforms.

    Just some quick thoughts.
  • Reply 70 of 77
    What would people who don't own Macs do with a free copy of X?,

    Apple will never be able to get to the A+ certified losers and Duh-Vry MCSE's.

    They know NOTHING about PC's - not to mention macs, they are basically robots. Create Account-Reboot Server-Defrag Hard Drive-Create Account-Plug In Printer-Install Security Patch-REPEAT

    Apple has to come forward with a value proposition (how I ****ing hate that term) that can stand on it's own merits without mac advocacy.

    Apple has to be able to put an offer on the table that will be credible against an offer from Dell.

    That requires a basic, inexpensive desktop priced on par with Dell and HP.

    I think education is less of a problem because the move to PC's has been in large part out of sheer necessity because they couldn't afford macs anymore and the mac lovers are still around and have a degree of influence. And although they still have a degree of influence - not enough to get their piss broke school board to pay 200-400% more money on Macs over PC's.
  • Reply 71 of 77
    [quote] more like 2 cents Canadian. <hr></blockquote>


    <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

    I think Steve's argued his corner well here.

    I agree. The 'bottom' line. That's why Apple's desktop sales are mediocre. Apple admitted as much in their report and cited mhz a big contributing factor in poor sales.

    Apple's laptop line is the most complete and distinguised line up I've ever seen from Apple. It competes with Wintel on most fronts. There's a reason for the iBook. The Powerbook. There's something for everybody. And something the Wintel guys don't have? 17 incher and 12 inch fully featured Notebook without compromise?

    Now. Can...can they do the same to the desktops? The recent 'power'Mac cuts kinda cut to ribbons the suggestion Apple can't do a £1000 inc VAT tower for fear of cannibalizing iMac sales...or because...urh...they just can't do it because someone says they can't. They've just proven they kinda can.

    With the 970 on the horizon, it may give Apple the breathing room to enter new markets and flesh out their desktop offerings in terms of more breadth. The iMac2/eMac are trying to cover too many bases currently. Migrate the current top end G4s quickly into the consumer line with the 970s in the Pro towers. All of a sudden, Apple's cpu situation looks very, nay, VERY rosy circa the 'fall.'

    IBM are still developing the G3 and a G3 on Rio would be an incredible iBOOK or eMac.

    I await the iMac2 and eMac bumps with interest.

    Perhaps Apple can realign their whole desktop strategy and fill one or wholes in their line up in the process and finally compete in markets where it's losing sales doesn't compete there.

    As for the other strange. I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone thread. I'm quietly nodding in aggreement with almost everything. Apart from what something up there said...

    Just close your eyes and imagine the whole consumer desktop line £150 quid cheaper...(the smallest price cut Apple made to their line of monitors...) Almost competitive, eh?

    Lemon Bon Bon

    [ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
  • Reply 72 of 77
    [quote] Enter OS X. It doesn't get said enough how many Windows and *nix geeks are eyeing the OS like a man in a faultering marriage. <hr></blockquote>

    <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />

    Quote of the day.

    Lemon Bon Bon :cool:
  • Reply 73 of 77
    occamoccam Posts: 54member
    Fran's mac spec.s looked good to me except for the 128M memory (64M graphics, and only 128M general --- ouch).

    I would suggest a 256M model with no memory expansion. Also, I would go with ultra bare bones VGA only connector as base model for switchers with their own monitors. That could be a cheapie model. I could also see a memory expansion (one slot) to 512M, but that would be optional according to marketing considerations. Also, wireless card should be optional (for schools and general use of Airport Extreme).

    I'd be surprised if Apple could not make a headless machine like that for less than $700.
  • Reply 74 of 77
    I think Apple is just coasting right now...their high profit margins and 'new' software offerings (iLife, Keynote, .Mac) will keep them comfortable through the economic downturn. I don't really see Apple's market share *lacking*, they are at worst holding steady in a stagnant market.

    That being said, I wonder what would happen if Apple dropped the entire powermac lineup by $400? Would it be enough to overcome the hostility to Mac in the business IT market, or the platform indifference/ignorance of most home PC users?

    I doubt it very much. Hell, I know I wouldn't buy one, because it would make me think the G5 was right around the corner.

    After the G5 hits, maybe we will see Apple getting a little more adventurous. But it will take more than a cheap machine-it would be nothing short of a marketing miracle to penetrate into the business IT market.
  • Reply 75 of 77
    buggybuggy Posts: 83member
    For those commenting on the power of OSX in influencing those PC biased IT managers, it is working... they are not yet ready for it, but they do take it very seriously. Many are already running Linux boxes for web-servers etc... in their Win based networks.

    As someone already pointed out, this may be Apple's great strategy in increasing Market-share. (for those that are convinced you must dominate to be taken seriously).

    This will be more successful than lowering prices and cutting your margins to near nothing in order to increase market-share. And to restate... Macs are not priced out of schools reach. Schools that ARE buying the really cheap PC's are only buying themselves headaches as they try to install them into large networks (Vast numbers of ghosting images, not standardized cards, parts, etc). Macs currently can compete quite well with schools that are intelligent enough to invest in the future.

    Kudos to all, some very good thoughts in this thread.

    Oh and re: the 2 cents Canadian... cutting but I can smile at it...

    I don't understand why Americans aren't flooding our borders to buy just about everything... It is SO cheap for you. The numbers look higher at first, but as soon as you do the math.. you save BIG. (except on smokes, liquor and gas... our government likes its taxes)

    [ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: Buggy ]</p>
  • Reply 76 of 77
    [quote]Originally posted by Buggy:

    <strong>Schools that ARE buying the really cheap PC's are only buying themselves headaches as they try to install them into large networks (Vast numbers of ghosting images, not standardized cards, parts, etc).</strong><hr></blockquote>

    It's not 1991 anymore, you guys really need to update your speil. At the moment Mac OS X requires a level of support that PC's have not needed in almost a decade.

    [quote]Originally posted by Buggy:

    <strong>Macs currently can compete quite well with schools that are intelligent enough to invest in the future.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    If you don't buy our products you are stupid.

    Your going to need a much better salespitch than that!
  • Reply 77 of 77
    Marketshare Mac:

    'X'. Everything else will flow through it. Unix, X11 etc New software and even a multi OS strategy within five years? Marklar? (Will Apple take on M$? They already are...)

    Software: Apple is making more of their own unique software that takes advantage of Quartz and 'X' tech'. And merely do software better. Begin to compete. See Safari. Maybe even do their own 'iOffice' suite. But not quite as we expect them to. As they continue to press this advantage I'm sure software and service sales may even account for up to half revenues in the next five years or so? Their already a quarter of their profits.

    Apple can't just keep giving away all its software. Even shareware guys charge for their crap.

    Yeah, incentives and freebies are nice. But sneaky initiatives like 'iLife' get you to pay for something that is free. (Sure, you still get the downloads...heh...) But some people are going to buy iLife and Apple are doing the right thing here. Charging by stealth. .Mac. They can expand and improve the service. Fees are reasonable.

    Aquire more high end software. Produce medium/cut down versions like Final Cut Express. After fleecing the high end up a medium priced product and fleece that.

    What about an app for video conferencing via a vPod?

    iPhone app? To manage yer phone?

    Simple, elegant music creator?

    Buy out Corel's Painter and Curious Labs Poser 5 and pull the Windows versions and...bundle with Macs...? Cut the price? Increase the price? Add to the value?

    I want Apple to do more software. And charge anything from £39-£3000K for it.

    Retail Stores: if you have great looking products on a great need great distribution. Apple gets to 100 stores? Who knows. They're at 52 and counting?

    Cheap 'bait'. If you're getting millions of visitors who come in and go... 'Nice...' but walk out, 'Pricey though...' Then you need an iCube 'reduce the risk' box.

    X-serve penetration into the Enterprise market.

    Acceptance by business will press them downward into the 'lapdog' markets...

    (the 970 should give a boost to that.)

    970 POWERMac. Allowing Apple to begin to really spread and diversify their desktop products from a 'cheap' box to uber workstations. G4 to consumer and laptop migration completed. Though iBook may stay with G3 as IBM continues to improve it. People who switched away (the 'agnostics') may switch back. People who are paying attention to 'switch' but want a more compelling performance over style argument. The 970 will answer critics.

    Cheaper iMac 2. Aggressive iMac2 pricing and restructuring. Cheap entry level all in one. £795 (at least matching the low end iBOOK..!)

    Emacs. Cheaper.

    iCube. Cheaper still.

    LCD monitor bundles on Towers.

    An iOffice suite fully compatible with 'M$ Office'. M$ makes alot of money out of Office sales. I'm sure Apple would like a chunk out of that revenue.

    Cheaper iPods. Aggressive pricing. Now they have 42% of ANY market. They don't want to let it go. Price it down. Aggressively! Add a colour screen to top model? Simple games?

    DLD. Something that brings iPhoto/digital wallet/iMovie functionality to a device. Something you can hook up to your digital camera instead of those wodge of 'smart carts'. Store Pics and play 'em back. Killer device.

    Apple need to get:

    Aggressive with desktop and laptop pricing. (Keep the pressure on Dell with iBook prices...)

    Improve current market grid.

    Spread out the desktop 'grid' to fill 'holes' or markets uncovered. Like they've done with the laptops! (maybe not including the £199 mac...Apple aint Wallmart... )


    More software. More R&D.

    A heavy hitter 3D app. Aquire and own. eg Maya or Softimage Xsi v 3

    Make people walk out of Apple stores with kit. ie cheap Mac. 'Hello again...'

    A tablet in the next year or so.

    More bundles.

    Better edu' discounts for students.

    High end 3D graphics cards.

    More compelling reasons than 'we've got a version of that too...' (Apple are an excellent software company. We await the 'killer app...')

    iPhone. (Join venture..?) Something that gets people to consider the 'Mac'. Go beyond the 'box' to get people to the 'box'.

    I'd like a 19 or 20 inch iMac2!!!


    Lemon Bon Bon

    It's not 1991 or the 20 century anymore. Apple are quite 'different'. They're changing. They have to. They can't sell £3k towers when you can get crap beige towers that blow them out the water. And you need more than semantics to convince that 97%. Who will only consider you when you remove the barriers to entry. It aint just cost. It aint just the G4. Or mhz. Or the magic wand solution. Apple are changing.

    But into what?

    [ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]

    [ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]

    [ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]

    [ 02-01-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
Sign In or Register to comment.