Current problems that require a thorough bitching about:
Consumer desktops are still woefully over-priced.
Apple still lacks a proper headless desktop offering in the 1000-1500 meat and potatoes range. The dual holdover G4's are a step in the right direction, but this range buys a HELL OF A LOT of computer goodness in the Wintel world. It's time for Apple to step up.
Laptops? The G3 is a dinosaur's great great grandfather, needs to retire to the tar pits, soon.
The Powerbooks are decent at the bottom half, and acceptable at the top half. They're still strikingly beautiful designs, but wintel has caught and surpassed them as far as larger machines go -- in terms of performance and battery life.
Lots of stuff still needs lotsa work, discuss.
The eMac happens to be a great value right now.
I agree 100% with your comment about the headless Mac, though.
Well, let's examine the inexpensive headless desktop, since it's a new idea for Apple (post-Jobs) and since Jozwiak has said that it's there for the long term.
Right now it's basically a year-old PowerMac that can boot into OS 9. What happens when Apple decides to drop OS 9 bootability altogether? For starters, they can do whatever they want hardware-wise.
The very simplest option is for them to continue doing what they're doing: Offering last year's tech at a discount. In this way, OS 9 bootability would vanish sometime next year as the DDR G4 PowerMac filled the slot, followed by the first-gen G5, and so forth. This has the advantage of costing Apple $0 in R&D, while filling an attractive space (especially to would-be switchers, for whom affordable minitowers are comfortingly familiar). It has the disadvantage, oddly, of costing Apple $0 in R&D - people expect engineered solutions from Cupertino. But maybe, in this case, they'll get a bye.
Another option: continue the El Capitan enclosed, 74xx powered tower for as long as it goes, updating it with DDR, the 7457 and any successors, and so forth. Advantage: Most of the work is already paid for, and the G4 line might go in interesting directions with e.g. RapidIO. Disadvantages: Most of the work was a desperate attempt to shore up a CPU that, increasingly, didn't belong in a tower at all; might be hopelessly eclipsed if/when the iMac goes G5.
Another option: Keep the current PMG4 for as long as there's a demand for an OS 9 bootable machine, then discontinue it in favor of a new line aimed at that price point. What would this be? Well, that's when things get interesting. Do you repurpose a PowerBook board into a pizza box or slab? Adapt an iMac board into some interesting little number? Reintroduce a new Cube as "the ultimate OS X workstation" now that that phrase actually means something? Something else entirely?
Of course, it's not really possible to talk about this without also considering the iMac. The current revision is an absolutely gorgeous, singularly practical design (from an ergonomic perspective). However, it's costly to manufacture, difficult to update (based on the rate at which it updates), it doesn't sit comfortably in the iMac's longtime price range, and it has failed to make anything like the impact that the original jellybean models made, either in buzz or in sales. It will be interesting to see what Apple does with the iMac, and how they position it relative to its new neighbor.
Amorph, your first option isn't a bad idea, but the price of a PMG4 needs to come down quite a bit first. The bottom tier ought to be 999, or it ought to include a superdrive. Superdrives are now cheap enough -- desktop variants -- that they shouldn't pose a problem. I can buy a retail internal unit for 230 canadian, about 150USD. The benchmark here is a recent HP system I've been playing with. A friend needed it for work, hence the PC, and I can't argue with the choice at all. It came loaded with goodies.
2.66Ghz P4, 512MB RAM, 120GB HDD, 6-in-1 reader, a DVD-ROM and 48X CDRW, a bunch of HP media center software nik naks that are surprisingly not bad, word perfect office, speakers and a VERY NICE 17" TFT flat panel withthe same type of articulation as the iMac display -- no side to side movement tho. All for 1710 Canadian! That's about 1100-1200 USD.
The way I see it, Apple has to make a more honest effort on the PMG4, and give a little something extra, iApps don't really make up for the lack of a monitor that everyone else finds a way to supply. Either they need to keep the configs as is and include the superdrive at the price, or keep the same configs and lower the prices to 999-1299, or keep the same configs and prices and add a monitor included for the same 1299-1599 MSRP. 17" Apple LCD will do, but so would a third party DVI/VGA panel.
They're quite a bit short on value.
The eMac is a horrible deal. We bought that HP with a far superior spec and a 17" LCD for 200 canadian less than the eMac. Having now had a chance to stare at an eMac screen for a long time, I find it very poor, it always has a very distracting moire somewhere on the screen and no amount of fiddling the controls will eliminate it. At the very least the should have used a trinitron type tube to eliminate that problem. iMacs should be selling for eMac money, if Apple is interested in having a cheap computer, then the eMac is it, one model 750USD combo. iMacs from 899-1399, headless from 999-1499.
The range needs a serious redress, they're missing a credible entry in the key 1000-1500 USD zone.
Do you really think ATi will release a Mac 'version' of their 9200 and 9500 cards when their performance difference is minimal and in this case, worse, when compared to the current mid-range 9600 Pro card?
Do you really think ATi will release a Mac 'version' of their 9200 and 9500 cards when their performance difference is minimal and in this case, worse, when compared to the current mid-range 9600 Pro card?
I have no idea. This is an armchair CEO lineup. However, that was a poor excuse for not knowing graphics card performance that well. So, what's the difference between the 8500, 9000, 9200, 9500, 9600, 9700 and 9800?
Code:
Version 1.1
Clck Main SO Vid Vid A P Hrd Opti
Rate mem DI Chip Mem G C drv ATA cal Price
AIO Macs CPU GHz MB Memory type MM ATI MB P I sz Type drive (USD)
So, what's the difference between the 8500, 9000, 9200, 9500, 9600, 9700 and 9800?
The 8500 is actually faster than the 9000 in some cases.
To be honest, it's late, so I'm not going to go that technical (I'm too tired ) but the performance differences between the cards on the PC side are minimal. The greatest leap is made from the 9200/9500/9600 series to the 9700/9800 series. The 9200/9500/9600 series cards are near identical with the only differences being price, video RAM and pipelines. The visible, real world difference between the 9200/9500/9600 cards and the 9700/9800 card is mostly around 25 to 50 frames per second at extremely high resolutions. ATi even offers the 9100 which is integrated into the motherboard of all-in-ones and laptops. Apparently it offers the newer tech of the 9x00 series of cards and provides a better performance over the 9000, which is now ironically considered a 'low-end' card in the PC world.
Am I the only one who really just isn't interested in the G5s?
I guess so -- I'd be more "ecstatic" about them if Apple hadn't have hooked me on their laptops.
Oh, and speaking of which -- this is pretty off-subject, yeah -- I finally got to see/mess around with a 17" PowerBook today.
It's nice, yes. But there's something lacking in these new aluminum designs. The one I used (it's owned by a secretary in our office) already had marks on the wrist-rest area from the screen and several little scuffs on the anodized surface. And the aluminum just doesn't feel as personable as my TiBook's surfaces.
And I'll put my TiBook's screen up to the test against a LapZilla anyday -- it seems of so much higher quality.
Hmm...and to meander again, for the sake of meandering, does Apple still use their classic keyboard font on the pro keyboards they sell externally/with Power Macs (the G5s?)?
Meh, little things like that make Apple's stuff so special.
And, for future speculation --- "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas..." I think we have an exciting Winter looking at us.
Current problems that require a thorough bitching about:
Consumer desktops are still woefully over-priced.
Apple still lacks a proper headless desktop offering in the 1000-1500 meat and potatoes range. The dual holdover G4's are a step in the right direction, but this range buys a HELL OF A LOT of computer goodness in the Wintel world. It's time for Apple to step up.
Laptops? The G3 is a dinosaur's great great grandfather, needs to retire to the tar pits, soon.
The Powerbooks are decent at the bottom half, and acceptable at the top half. They're still strikingly beautiful designs, but wintel has caught and surpassed them as far as larger machines go -- in terms of performance and battery life.
Lots of stuff still needs lotsa work, discuss.
Some people seem to think that the new machines will make the wintel world quake at the approach of a Mac...(not). Apple needs to move quickly to preserve the market segment they have. Products like the new G5 case ("enclosure") are not likely to do that without change. <http://www.insideapple.com/editorials.php?id=33_0_4_0_M>
Apple is still overpriced throughout much of the lineup and the lineup has large holes in it which simply offer no choice at all compared to a wintel machine. As wintel software becomes more Mac-like the reasons to have a Mac become fewer and fewer. Apple management is frequently the company's own worst enemy. Just look at the way customers are treated. The warranty & support is among the shortest in the industry and among the most expensive once out of warrranty. Even with Applecare the coverage is limited. Besides, Apple is always carping about the software that people keep wanting to install on their machines instead of leaving them the way they were shipped.
This is the first time a a very long time that Apple has had the opportunity to present hardware which is truly competitive with the alternatives. If they do not move quickly they risk alienating the existing user base for whom a computer, whoever may make it, is merely a tool for doing things.
Am I the only one who really just isn't interested in the G5s?
I guess so -- I'd be more "ecstatic" about them if Apple hadn't have hooked me on their laptops.
No, you're not the only one. I sold my tower a year ago and will never get another. The PowerBooks are the way to go, for me. I don't want to be tied to a desk. Upgrades can't come soon enough. I've been saving my pennies. Can't wait to see what Apple comes up with.
Comments
Originally posted by Matsu
Just wait for the first G5 upgrade cycle.
Current problems that require a thorough bitching about:
Consumer desktops are still woefully over-priced.
Apple still lacks a proper headless desktop offering in the 1000-1500 meat and potatoes range. The dual holdover G4's are a step in the right direction, but this range buys a HELL OF A LOT of computer goodness in the Wintel world. It's time for Apple to step up.
Laptops? The G3 is a dinosaur's great great grandfather, needs to retire to the tar pits, soon.
The Powerbooks are decent at the bottom half, and acceptable at the top half. They're still strikingly beautiful designs, but wintel has caught and surpassed them as far as larger machines go -- in terms of performance and battery life.
Lots of stuff still needs lotsa work, discuss.
The eMac happens to be a great value right now.
I agree 100% with your comment about the headless Mac, though.
Market Share affects:
(1) Mac resellers (those not yet squashed by Apple stores/online)
(2) Mac software and peripheral peddlers (Apple competition?)
(3) Mac users in terms of increased options, competition, and viability
Of course the above considerations may not immediately benefit Apple's profit and stock.
That Forum's Not Dead...
Right now it's basically a year-old PowerMac that can boot into OS 9. What happens when Apple decides to drop OS 9 bootability altogether? For starters, they can do whatever they want hardware-wise.
The very simplest option is for them to continue doing what they're doing: Offering last year's tech at a discount. In this way, OS 9 bootability would vanish sometime next year as the DDR G4 PowerMac filled the slot, followed by the first-gen G5, and so forth. This has the advantage of costing Apple $0 in R&D, while filling an attractive space (especially to would-be switchers, for whom affordable minitowers are comfortingly familiar). It has the disadvantage, oddly, of costing Apple $0 in R&D - people expect engineered solutions from Cupertino. But maybe, in this case, they'll get a bye.
Another option: continue the El Capitan enclosed, 74xx powered tower for as long as it goes, updating it with DDR, the 7457 and any successors, and so forth. Advantage: Most of the work is already paid for, and the G4 line might go in interesting directions with e.g. RapidIO. Disadvantages: Most of the work was a desperate attempt to shore up a CPU that, increasingly, didn't belong in a tower at all; might be hopelessly eclipsed if/when the iMac goes G5.
Another option: Keep the current PMG4 for as long as there's a demand for an OS 9 bootable machine, then discontinue it in favor of a new line aimed at that price point. What would this be? Well, that's when things get interesting.
Of course, it's not really possible to talk about this without also considering the iMac. The current revision is an absolutely gorgeous, singularly practical design (from an ergonomic perspective). However, it's costly to manufacture, difficult to update (based on the rate at which it updates), it doesn't sit comfortably in the iMac's longtime price range, and it has failed to make anything like the impact that the original jellybean models made, either in buzz or in sales. It will be interesting to see what Apple does with the iMac, and how they position it relative to its new neighbor.
2.66Ghz P4, 512MB RAM, 120GB HDD, 6-in-1 reader, a DVD-ROM and 48X CDRW, a bunch of HP media center software nik naks that are surprisingly not bad, word perfect office, speakers and a VERY NICE 17" TFT flat panel withthe same type of articulation as the iMac display -- no side to side movement tho. All for 1710 Canadian! That's about 1100-1200 USD.
The way I see it, Apple has to make a more honest effort on the PMG4, and give a little something extra, iApps don't really make up for the lack of a monitor that everyone else finds a way to supply. Either they need to keep the configs as is and include the superdrive at the price, or keep the same configs and lower the prices to 999-1299, or keep the same configs and prices and add a monitor included for the same 1299-1599 MSRP. 17" Apple LCD will do, but so would a third party DVI/VGA panel.
They're quite a bit short on value.
The eMac is a horrible deal. We bought that HP with a far superior spec and a 17" LCD for 200 canadian less than the eMac. Having now had a chance to stare at an eMac screen for a long time, I find it very poor, it always has a very distracting moire somewhere on the screen and no amount of fiddling the controls will eliminate it. At the very least the should have used a trinitron type tube to eliminate that problem. iMacs should be selling for eMac money, if Apple is interested in having a cheap computer, then the eMac is it, one model 750USD combo. iMacs from 899-1399, headless from 999-1499.
The range needs a serious redress, they're missing a credible entry in the key 1000-1500 USD zone.
For the Q1 04, I submit:
Version 1.0
Clck Main SO Vid Vid A P Hrd Opti
Rate mem DI Chip Mem G C drv ATA cal Price
AIO Macs CPU GHz MB Memory type MM ATI MB P I sz Type drive (USD)
-------- ---- ---- --- ----------- -- ---- --- -- - --- ---- ----- -----
eMac 7457 1.0 256 64b PC2100 2 9200 32 4x 0 40 66 combo 799
eMac 7457 1.25 256 64b PC2100 2 9200 32 4x 0 40 66 combo 999
eMac 7457 1.25 256 64b PC2100 2 9200 32 4x 0 40 66 super 1199
iMac 17 2x7457 1.0 256 64b PC2700 2 9500 32 4x 0 60 100 combo 1299
iMac 17 2x7457 1.25 512 64b PC2700 2 9500 64 4x 0 80 100 super 1799
Clck Main SO Vid Vid A P Hrd Opti
Rate mem DI Chip Mem G C drv ATA cal Price
Headless Macs CPU GHz MB Memory type MM ATI MB P I sz Type drive (USD)
------------- ---- ---- --- ----------- -- ---- --- -- - --- ---- ----- -----
G4 mini 7457 0.87 256 64b PC2100 2 9000 32 4x 1 40 66 combo 699
G4 mini 7457 1.0 256 64b PC2700 2 9200 32 4x 1 40 66 combo 799
G4 mini 7457 1.25 256 64b PC2700 2 9200 32 4x 1 60 66 combo 899
G5 mini 970 1.6 256 128b PC2700 4 9500 64 8x 1 60 100 combo 1199
G5 mini 970 1.8 512 128b PC2700 4 9500 64 8x 1 80 100 super 1499
Power Mac G5 2x970 1.8 512 128b PC3200 8 9700 64 8x 3 120 SATA super 1899
Power Mac G5 2x970 2.1 512 128b PC3200 8 9700 128 8x 3 160 SATA super 2399
Power Mac G5 2x970 2.4 512 128b PC3200 8 9800 128 8x 3 200 SATA super 2799
G4 mini form factor: 8x12x8 inches. A tall cube with horizontal optical.
G5 mini form factor: 8x13x12 inches. A mini Power Mac G5.
Do you really think ATi will release a Mac 'version' of their 9200 and 9500 cards when their performance difference is minimal and in this case, worse, when compared to the current mid-range 9600 Pro card?
Originally posted by job
Do you really think ATi will release a Mac 'version' of their 9200 and 9500 cards when their performance difference is minimal and in this case, worse, when compared to the current mid-range 9600 Pro card?
I have no idea. This is an armchair CEO lineup.
Version 1.1
Clck Main SO Vid Vid A P Hrd Opti
Rate mem DI Chip Mem G C drv ATA cal Price
AIO Macs CPU GHz MB Memory type MM ATI MB P I sz Type drive (USD)
-------- ---- ---- --- ----------- -- ---- --- -- - --- ---- ----- -----
eMac 7457 1.0 256 64b PC2100 2 9000 32 4x 0 40 66 combo 799
eMac 7457 1.25 256 64b PC2100 2 9000 32 4x 0 40 66 combo 999
eMac 7457 1.25 256 64b PC2100 2 9000 32 4x 0 40 66 super 1199
iMac 17 2x7457 1.0 256 64b PC2700 2 9600 64 4x 0 60 100 combo 1299
iMac 17 2x7457 1.25 512 64b PC2700 2 9600 128 4x 0 80 100 super 1799
Clck Main SO Vid Vid A P Hrd Opti
Rate mem DI Chip Mem G C drv ATA cal Price
Headless Macs CPU GHz MB Memory type MM ATI MB P I sz Type drive (USD)
------------- ---- ---- --- ----------- -- ---- --- -- - --- ---- ----- -----
G4 mini 7457 0.87 256 64b PC2100 2 9000 32 4x 1 40 66 combo 699
G4 mini 7457 1.0 256 64b PC2700 2 9000 32 4x 1 40 66 combo 799
G4 mini 7457 1.25 256 64b PC2700 2 9000 32 4x 1 60 66 combo 899
G5 mini 970 1.6 256 128b PC2700 4 9600 64 8x 1 60 SATA combo 1199
G5 mini 970 1.8 512 128b PC2700 4 9600 64 8x 1 80 SATA super 1499
Power Mac G5 2x970 1.8 512 128b PC3200 8 9700 64 8x 3 120 SATA super 1899
Power Mac G5 2x970 2.1 512 128b PC3200 8 9800 128 8x 3 160 SATA super 2399
Power Mac G5 2x970 2.4 512 128b PC3200 8 9800 128 8x 3 200 SATA super 2899
Originally posted by pscates
Ohmigosh, there he goes again with that grid!
Hehe.
Originally posted by THT
I have no idea. This is an armchair CEO lineup.
Hehe.
So, what's the difference between the 8500, 9000, 9200, 9500, 9600, 9700 and 9800?
The 8500 is actually faster than the 9000 in some cases.
To be honest, it's late, so I'm not going to go that technical (I'm too tired
I guess so -- I'd be more "ecstatic" about them if Apple hadn't have hooked me on their laptops.
Oh, and speaking of which -- this is pretty off-subject, yeah -- I finally got to see/mess around with a 17" PowerBook today.
It's nice, yes. But there's something lacking in these new aluminum designs. The one I used (it's owned by a secretary in our office) already had marks on the wrist-rest area from the screen and several little scuffs on the anodized surface. And the aluminum just doesn't feel as personable as my TiBook's surfaces.
And I'll put my TiBook's screen up to the test against a LapZilla anyday -- it seems of so much higher quality.
Hmm...and to meander again, for the sake of meandering, does Apple still use their classic keyboard font on the pro keyboards they sell externally/with Power Macs (the G5s?)?
Meh, little things like that make Apple's stuff so special.
And, for future speculation --- "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas..." I think we have an exciting Winter looking at us.
Originally posted by Matsu
Just wait for the first G5 upgrade cycle.
Current problems that require a thorough bitching about:
Consumer desktops are still woefully over-priced.
Apple still lacks a proper headless desktop offering in the 1000-1500 meat and potatoes range. The dual holdover G4's are a step in the right direction, but this range buys a HELL OF A LOT of computer goodness in the Wintel world. It's time for Apple to step up.
Laptops? The G3 is a dinosaur's great great grandfather, needs to retire to the tar pits, soon.
The Powerbooks are decent at the bottom half, and acceptable at the top half. They're still strikingly beautiful designs, but wintel has caught and surpassed them as far as larger machines go -- in terms of performance and battery life.
Lots of stuff still needs lotsa work, discuss.
Some people seem to think that the new machines will make the wintel world quake at the approach of a Mac...(not). Apple needs to move quickly to preserve the market segment they have. Products like the new G5 case ("enclosure") are not likely to do that without change. <http://www.insideapple.com/editorials.php?id=33_0_4_0_M>
Apple is still overpriced throughout much of the lineup and the lineup has large holes in it which simply offer no choice at all compared to a wintel machine. As wintel software becomes more Mac-like the reasons to have a Mac become fewer and fewer. Apple management is frequently the company's own worst enemy. Just look at the way customers are treated. The warranty & support is among the shortest in the industry and among the most expensive once out of warrranty. Even with Applecare the coverage is limited. Besides, Apple is always carping about the software that people keep wanting to install on their machines instead of leaving them the way they were shipped.
This is the first time a a very long time that Apple has had the opportunity to present hardware which is truly competitive with the alternatives. If they do not move quickly they risk alienating the existing user base for whom a computer, whoever may make it, is merely a tool for doing things.
Really, the g5's put Apple up with Intel, and new "books" motivate so many people here.
Alas, there is some real truth in the title of this topic.
Dr. L
(an Apple supporter since the "Lisa")
Originally posted by fred_lj
Am I the only one who really just isn't interested in the G5s?
I guess so -- I'd be more "ecstatic" about them if Apple hadn't have hooked me on their laptops.
No, you're not the only one. I sold my tower a year ago and will never get another. The PowerBooks are the way to go, for me. I don't want to be tied to a desk. Upgrades can't come soon enough. I've been saving my pennies. Can't wait to see what Apple comes up with.