The reason PEECEE fanatics love to point towards cinebench, is because Maxon won't optimize for any specific chip (like SSE2 and Altivec)
The reason this is good for the P.C. side is simply because SSE2 sucks and can't hold a candle to altivec. Lightwave got something like a 50% increase in performance using altivec ... not much of a difference with SSE2 though.
As well, Cinebench must be the most useless benchmarking tool since it really only applies to people who actually use the software .001% of users (as well as only during rendering for that matter)
As someone else pointed out ... in most mainstream apps like photoshop, logic, blast, mathematica the G5 just creams anything on Intel.
Getting back to the original point of this thread (someone actually owning a G5), either I've missed it, or no one has yet mentioned this thread at SpyMac with quite a few pics of a G5 from the Stanford computer store being taken out of the box. All looks nice and real. Unfortunately, the guy says there is no Panther coupon in the box. But there are keyboard and mouse pics !
There are usually generic update coupons in the CPU box, not a specific one. Based on previous OS updates, I'm absolutely, positively (almost) sure that an update for Panther will be available via a free DVD at an Apple store or through the mail for $19.95. I believe this was the case with Jaguar for people who purchased OS X /CPUs just prior to the update to Jag.
There are usually generic update coupons in the CPU box, not a specific one. Based on previous OS updates, I'm absolutely, positively (almost) sure that an update for Panther will be available via a free DVD at an Apple store or through the mail for $19.95. I believe this was the case with Jaguar for people who purchased OS X /CPUs just prior to the update to Jag.
Yeah, I wonder if the guy missed the Up-To-Date coupons. That's what I'm hoping. I remember using those coupons to bless my PowerBook 1400 with the "power" of OS 8.0.
Looks like I better to wait for 3GHz G5 to come..... or buy couple of cheap PCs
Anyway....would be curious on how Maya and Lightwave run on G5 (of course if they are optimized
Having Lightwave for both the Mac and PC, you're not the only one who is curious!
As for Adobe, they can keep their Premiere, I'll be starting out life with Final Cut Pro4.
I want to know by how much the Dual G5 creams my Athlon 1.4 gig!
Leonis, we'll have to see some Lightwave benches to see what's up with the whole Cinebench thing. Some guy from Maxxon on Arse(hole? Just kidding folks...British joke...Our humour is very anal...) is claiming even with optimisations, the G5 is looking at rendering performance to a 2.6 Pentium 4? I don't think that can be right.
My side bet is that a dual 2 gig G5 is going to 'hurt' a Pentium 4 3 gigger on Lightwave. Newtek seem to be quite good at squeezing power out of Macs. All told, the G4 stacked up pretty well vs Pentium 4 considering the mhz gap.
So, an unoptimised dual 2 gigger might trail a Pentium 3 gigger in a PC biased/optimised test...or two. Guess that means the G5 isn't optimised. Panther and the latest compilers aren't quite here and it will take more than a week after shipping for people like Newtek and Maxxon to optimise for the G5.
But. We knew that, didn't we? Hands up all those people who aren't happy with a machine that is (unlike the G4) actually going to get faster once those optimisations come?
Reiterate, by the time we've finished moaning about a computer we all wanted to ship early! (Hey, go back and read the boards prior to WWDC...some estimates were for 2004!) ....then we'll be on a dual 2.5 and by then, Intel's 3.4 won't have a chance.
200 mhz for them? 200mhz.
500 mhz for us? 1000mhz in G4 performance, at least in terms of fpu!
When Panther and the G5 has settled down? I'll be buying the world's fastest computer. (Give or take what AMD 'Boxx' machines are doing. But are they going to be able to reach 500 mhz in speed hikes between now and Jan'? I think a 2.5 gig G5 dual will run any 'Hammer' very hard.)
Leonis, I'm beginning to think you're right. Rev B is look odds on...
Lemon Bon Bon
PS. I'd like to see how things stack up when, WHEN we have Bryce, Lightwave, Photoshop, Macworld Speed Tests (for overall system performance...), Several Game tests and if the Apple tests can be replicated once Panther arrives.
We may have to wait until late October until the controversy becomes a clearer issue.
By then...we'll have 80 'What will be at Macworld San Fran..? threads to take our minds off the 'hype.' And then it'll only be a few months wait until Apple south paws Intel to the jegs...with those 2.5 G5 duallies!
My 2 GHz dual G5 is on order, and I just upgraded my PC to a 3.2 GHz P4 / 800 FSB with 2 GB DDR400 RAM, so I'll do my best to benchmark the two against each other in several different ways and post the results when I get the G5!
I'm sure THAT will go over well, regardless of which machine comes out ahead...
Anyway. I have a great feeling that people will be using After Effects 6.0 to compare G5 and other PCs
I have read somewhere that mentions Adobe has done a lot of optimization to P4 processors.
If a PC beats G5 in AE then we will see another tide of "Mac sucks" "The sky is falling" thing
In my line of work, AE is just as important if not more than Photoshop. I NEED that to run fast. But I did see a benchmark where a dual G5 was twice as fast as a dual 2.66 Xeon, so my hopes are up.
some famous(sort of) after effects desinger already showed that the g5 is going to blow the p4 away. it (the g5) was already faster only running 10.2.7 and the old AE 5 which where not dual proc aware.
do a search in this forum for "orphanage"
they are the losers who made the psuedo ad about them switching to PC since AE was so much faster on there then the mac.
one problem. the ad failed to mention the fact that AE did not see dual procs.
some famous(sort of) after effects desinger already showed that the g5 is going to blow the p4 away. it (the g5) was already faster only running 10.2.7 and the old AE 5 which where not dual proc aware.
do a search in this forum for "orphanage"
they are the losers who made the psuedo ad about them switching to PC since AE was so much faster on there then the mac.
one problem. the ad failed to mention the fact that AE did not see dual procs.
Don't know about AE yet....but VIRUS! Gotta love that
My only question is if AE 6.0 is optimized for G5 or not. I only know the optimization (and SMT support) for the P4 is very heavy....but I don't think the optimization will be as heavy for the G5 since Adobe has moved a lot of their video app resources to the PC side.
If AE still performs like "crap" on the Mac I predict we will see Shake LE selling for the same price (or even lower) of the AE production bundle.
Another if here. IF Adobe release a 6.01 update with "heavy" G5 optimization and the performance on G5 is far greater than PC.....we will see another thing. This thing is those PC magazines will only load version 6.0 (unoptimized version) on the G5 and run the same 6.0 on PC (which is already heavily P4 optimized) and show PC is faster than Mac, etc etc etc.... This sounds anal but it has happend before
What a disappointing result on Cinebench. I AM MOVING TO DELL!
Serious. I use Cinema as my 3D app. Honestly when I saw the posts from the Maxon guys in Postforum I was kind of bummed to be told that the Dual G5 (even used a Cinebench that recognizes G5) still can't beat the fastest Xeon.
After seeing the demo of PS, Mathmetica, Logic, etc etc....even Renderman benchmark I really expect to see the same magnitude of speed boost in Cinema/Cinebench - much faster than G4 and even faster than PC....
Cinebench is indentical to the Cinema application. It loads all the real projects created by users and run the rendering, fly-thru etc to test the hardware performance.....pretty much that the performance on Cinebench will be the same on the Cinema application.
Looks like I better to wait for 3GHz G5 to come..... or buy couple of cheap PCs
Anyway....would be curious on how Maya and Lightwave run on G5 (of course if they are optimized)
The benchmarks I saw showed the Dual G5 doing pretty well, especially considering the lack of optimization.
I would guess AE (and other Video apps) perform great on the G5! If in spite of all logic it should not, then it's definately entirely Adobe's fault! ;-)
Cinebench is great in itself, but 3D rendering is by nature compute-intensive but not very bandwidth-intensive!
AE (and other video apps) are VERY bandwidth-intensive, and bandwidth on the FSB is something where the G5 really kicks PC-ass! 7.2GByte PER CPU is simply unmatched, the P4 Xeon reaches max. 6.4GByte/s for TWO CPUs (and i think that's even only a theoretical maximum not considering overhead like the G5s 8 GByte/s!) and the Athlon only 3.2GByte/s per CPU (dito, theoretical maximum)!
Bandwidth was something that was IMHO lacking much more than GHz in the G4, and something that PCs really excelled in in the past few years, which is why so many pro-Video-Solutions (stuff like Realtime-compositing, e.g. 844/x by Media100!) were released for PC!
Well, the G5 was basically BUILT for this kinda stuff, its FSB that scales directly with CPU-MHz, the bidirectional Bus! Floating power also comes in handy in 3D, but i'm pretty definate the busses mostly idle there.
If we read the signs correctly applying some logic Apple has built a machine that can do stuff on really fat videostreams in realtime! Just imagine Shake or FCP pumping the streams from RAID through Hypertransport-connected I/O (3.2GByte/s) through the CPUs (upstream 4Gbyte/s), the CPU doing some stuff with it (think SIMD, think Altivec!) and then sending it back (downstream 4GByte/s) onto the AGPx8-Gfxcard (2GByte/s!) and you just get a slight idea what will be possible with this monster! ;-) Realtime-Stuff on huge Data-Streams you never thought would be possible or that demanded a really costly Inferno, Flame or some other badass throughput SGI before!
THIS is the G5s very strength! A very clean and efficient MoBo-Architecture with a huge potential! Plus it just happens to have a CPU that's pretty damn good in Floating point and packs a very very heavy punch compared to a few MIPSes in an SGI! ;-)
Forget the benchmarks and all the apps that are out today! It's fine that they'll be alot faster, especially with some tweaking! But the real interesting things will be the future programs the G5 (and only the G5!) WILL MAKE POSSIBLE!
It's a great thing we don't have to wait for these programs to benefit from the G5, cause we already can with what's out there, but I'd definately say the future is very very bright and exciting indeed! ;-)
In fact the presence of Luxology on the WWDC gave a hint! Their new program could just be the first generation of what i'm talking about, and Apple really wants to establish the G5 as an SFX-Workstation, and SFX-People are also the ones that can DEFINATELY make use of 64bit, e.g. in regards of color precision (they work in a totally different quality than "normal" TV-Stuff!) and many GBytes of adressable RAM, which is why they liked SGIs (64bit!) in the first place! ;-)
Here's a "benchmark" for the rest of us. A guy over at spymac who has a 1.6 G5 has this to say...
Quote:
Just so you know what I had before the G5 for comparison purposes. I was using a MDD G4 dual 1.25 with 1.5gigs of ram, and my stock 1.6 G5 with 256megs is noticably snappier. Can't wait to get that extra gig in there. I'll let you all know!
Repeat, A single 1.6 G5 w/256 RAM is "noticeably snappier" than a MDD G4 dual 1.25 w/1.5gigs RAM! Should I repeat that again?
Comments
Looks like I better to wait for 3GHz G5 to come
Well, when that time comes around, you will be "needing" 4 GHZ.
Originally posted by msantti
Well, when that time comes around, you will be "needing" 4 GHZ.
I know......but I always looking for the price/performance thing. If the dual 2GHz is selling for $2500 US I will immediately go out and buy one
The reason this is good for the P.C. side is simply because SSE2 sucks and can't hold a candle to altivec. Lightwave got something like a 50% increase in performance using altivec ... not much of a difference with SSE2 though.
As well, Cinebench must be the most useless benchmarking tool since it really only applies to people who actually use the software .001% of users (as well as only during rendering for that matter)
As someone else pointed out ... in most mainstream apps like photoshop, logic, blast, mathematica the G5 just creams anything on Intel.
Originally posted by the cool gut
As someone else pointed out ... in most mainstream apps like photoshop, logic, blast, mathematica the G5 just creams anything on Intel.
Moreover, it's a Mac with soon to be Panther which is an interface experience that no PC can approach. This benchmark crap is a lot of hooey.
As someone else pointed out ... in most mainstream apps like photoshop, logic, blast, mathematica the G5 just creams anything on Intel.
BLAST Gene Sequencing and Mathematica "mainstream Apps"? ;-) Oh puh-leeze!... Wolfram would be most happy if it were so i bet!..
I have read somewhere that mentions Adobe has done a lot of optimization to P4 processors.
If a PC beats G5 in AE then we will see another tide of "Mac sucks" "The sky is falling" thing
Originally posted by MacsRGood4U
There are usually generic update coupons in the CPU box, not a specific one. Based on previous OS updates, I'm absolutely, positively (almost) sure that an update for Panther will be available via a free DVD at an Apple store or through the mail for $19.95. I believe this was the case with Jaguar for people who purchased OS X /CPUs just prior to the update to Jag.
Yeah, I wonder if the guy missed the Up-To-Date coupons. That's what I'm hoping. I remember using those coupons to bless my PowerBook 1400 with the "power" of OS 8.0.
Looks like I better to wait for 3GHz G5 to come..... or buy couple of cheap PCs
Anyway....would be curious on how Maya and Lightwave run on G5 (of course if they are optimized
Having Lightwave for both the Mac and PC, you're not the only one who is curious!
As for Adobe, they can keep their Premiere, I'll be starting out life with Final Cut Pro4.
I want to know by how much the Dual G5 creams my Athlon 1.4 gig!
Leonis, we'll have to see some Lightwave benches
My side bet is that a dual 2 gig G5 is going to 'hurt' a Pentium 4 3 gigger on Lightwave. Newtek seem to be quite good at squeezing power out of Macs. All told, the G4 stacked up pretty well vs Pentium 4 considering the mhz gap.
So, an unoptimised dual 2 gigger might trail a Pentium 3 gigger in a PC biased/optimised test...or two. Guess that means the G5 isn't optimised. Panther and the latest compilers aren't quite here and it will take more than a week after shipping for people like Newtek and Maxxon to optimise for the G5.
But. We knew that, didn't we? Hands up all those people who aren't happy with a machine that is (unlike the G4) actually going to get faster once those optimisations come?
Reiterate, by the time we've finished moaning about a computer we all wanted to ship early! (Hey, go back and read the boards prior to WWDC...some estimates were for 2004!) ....then we'll be on a dual 2.5 and by then, Intel's 3.4 won't have a chance.
200 mhz for them? 200mhz.
500 mhz for us? 1000mhz in G4 performance, at least in terms of fpu!
When Panther and the G5 has settled down? I'll be buying the world's fastest computer. (Give or take what AMD 'Boxx' machines are doing. But are they going to be able to reach 500 mhz in speed hikes between now and Jan'? I think a 2.5 gig G5 dual will run any 'Hammer' very hard.)
Leonis, I'm beginning to think you're right. Rev B is look odds on...
Lemon Bon Bon
PS. I'd like to see how things stack up when, WHEN we have Bryce, Lightwave, Photoshop, Macworld Speed Tests (for overall system performance...), Several Game tests and if the Apple tests can be replicated once Panther arrives.
We may have to wait until late October until the controversy becomes a clearer issue.
By then...we'll have 80 'What will be at Macworld San Fran..? threads to take our minds off the 'hype.' And then it'll only be a few months wait until Apple south paws Intel to the jegs...with those 2.5 G5 duallies!
I'm sure THAT will go over well, regardless of which machine comes out ahead...
-- Mark
Originally posted by Leonis
Anyway. I have a great feeling that people will be using After Effects 6.0 to compare G5 and other PCs
I have read somewhere that mentions Adobe has done a lot of optimization to P4 processors.
If a PC beats G5 in AE then we will see another tide of "Mac sucks" "The sky is falling" thing
In my line of work, AE is just as important if not more than Photoshop. I NEED that to run fast. But I did see a benchmark where a dual G5 was twice as fast as a dual 2.66 Xeon, so my hopes are up.
Originally posted by Leonis
Anyway. I have a great feeling that people will be using After Effects 6.0 to compare G5 and other PCs
I have read somewhere that mentions Adobe has done a lot of optimization to P4 processors.
If a PC beats G5 in AE then we will see another tide of "Mac sucks" "The sky is falling" thing
At least AE6 can use both processors.
do a search in this forum for "orphanage"
they are the losers who made the psuedo ad about them switching to PC since AE was so much faster on there then the mac.
one problem. the ad failed to mention the fact that AE did not see dual procs.
i hope they enjoy their PCs...
slower AE AND viruses!
Originally posted by keyboardf12
some famous(sort of) after effects desinger already showed that the g5 is going to blow the p4 away. it (the g5) was already faster only running 10.2.7 and the old AE 5 which where not dual proc aware.
do a search in this forum for "orphanage"
they are the losers who made the psuedo ad about them switching to PC since AE was so much faster on there then the mac.
one problem. the ad failed to mention the fact that AE did not see dual procs.
i hope they enjoy their PCs...
slower AE AND viruses!
This is the thread, correct?
Originally posted by keyboardf12
slower AE AND viruses!
Don't know about AE yet....but VIRUS! Gotta love that
My only question is if AE 6.0 is optimized for G5 or not. I only know the optimization (and SMT support) for the P4 is very heavy....but I don't think the optimization will be as heavy for the G5 since Adobe has moved a lot of their video app resources to the PC side.
If AE still performs like "crap" on the Mac I predict we will see Shake LE selling for the same price (or even lower) of the AE production bundle.
Another if here. IF Adobe release a 6.01 update with "heavy" G5 optimization and the performance on G5 is far greater than PC.....we will see another thing. This thing is those PC magazines will only load version 6.0 (unoptimized version) on the G5 and run the same 6.0 on PC (which is already heavily P4 optimized) and show PC is faster than Mac, etc etc etc.... This sounds anal but it has happend before
Originally posted by Leonis
What a disappointing result on Cinebench. I AM MOVING TO DELL!
Serious. I use Cinema as my 3D app. Honestly when I saw the posts from the Maxon guys in Postforum I was kind of bummed to be told that the Dual G5 (even used a Cinebench that recognizes G5) still can't beat the fastest Xeon.
After seeing the demo of PS, Mathmetica, Logic, etc etc....even Renderman benchmark I really expect to see the same magnitude of speed boost in Cinema/Cinebench - much faster than G4 and even faster than PC....
Cinebench is indentical to the Cinema application. It loads all the real projects created by users and run the rendering, fly-thru etc to test the hardware performance.....pretty much that the performance on Cinebench will be the same on the Cinema application.
Looks like I better to wait for 3GHz G5 to come..... or buy couple of cheap PCs
Anyway....would be curious on how Maya and Lightwave run on G5 (of course if they are optimized)
The benchmarks I saw showed the Dual G5 doing pretty well, especially considering the lack of optimization.
Trust, my friend. Apple won't dissapoint us.
Cinebench is great in itself, but 3D rendering is by nature compute-intensive but not very bandwidth-intensive!
AE (and other video apps) are VERY bandwidth-intensive, and bandwidth on the FSB is something where the G5 really kicks PC-ass! 7.2GByte PER CPU is simply unmatched, the P4 Xeon reaches max. 6.4GByte/s for TWO CPUs (and i think that's even only a theoretical maximum not considering overhead like the G5s 8 GByte/s!) and the Athlon only 3.2GByte/s per CPU (dito, theoretical maximum)!
Bandwidth was something that was IMHO lacking much more than GHz in the G4, and something that PCs really excelled in in the past few years, which is why so many pro-Video-Solutions (stuff like Realtime-compositing, e.g. 844/x by Media100!) were released for PC!
Well, the G5 was basically BUILT for this kinda stuff, its FSB that scales directly with CPU-MHz, the bidirectional Bus! Floating power also comes in handy in 3D, but i'm pretty definate the busses mostly idle there.
If we read the signs correctly applying some logic Apple has built a machine that can do stuff on really fat videostreams in realtime! Just imagine Shake or FCP pumping the streams from RAID through Hypertransport-connected I/O (3.2GByte/s) through the CPUs (upstream 4Gbyte/s), the CPU doing some stuff with it (think SIMD, think Altivec!) and then sending it back (downstream 4GByte/s) onto the AGPx8-Gfxcard (2GByte/s!) and you just get a slight idea what will be possible with this monster! ;-) Realtime-Stuff on huge Data-Streams you never thought would be possible or that demanded a really costly Inferno, Flame or some other badass throughput SGI before!
THIS is the G5s very strength! A very clean and efficient MoBo-Architecture with a huge potential! Plus it just happens to have a CPU that's pretty damn good in Floating point and packs a very very heavy punch compared to a few MIPSes in an SGI! ;-)
Forget the benchmarks and all the apps that are out today! It's fine that they'll be alot faster, especially with some tweaking! But the real interesting things will be the future programs the G5 (and only the G5!) WILL MAKE POSSIBLE!
It's a great thing we don't have to wait for these programs to benefit from the G5, cause we already can with what's out there, but I'd definately say the future is very very bright and exciting indeed! ;-)
In fact the presence of Luxology on the WWDC gave a hint! Their new program could just be the first generation of what i'm talking about, and Apple really wants to establish the G5 as an SFX-Workstation, and SFX-People are also the ones that can DEFINATELY make use of 64bit, e.g. in regards of color precision (they work in a totally different quality than "normal" TV-Stuff!) and many GBytes of adressable RAM, which is why they liked SGIs (64bit!) in the first place! ;-)
Just so you know what I had before the G5 for comparison purposes. I was using a MDD G4 dual 1.25 with 1.5gigs of ram, and my stock 1.6 G5 with 256megs is noticably snappier. Can't wait to get that extra gig in there. I'll let you all know!
Repeat, A single 1.6 G5 w/256 RAM is "noticeably snappier" than a MDD G4 dual 1.25 w/1.5gigs RAM!
Reference 1
Reference 2
Reference 3
Edit to add third link.
Originally posted by Leonis
I know......but I always looking for the price/performance thing. If the dual 2GHz is selling for $2500 US I will immediately go out and buy one
If you can find a government employee to "sponsor" your purchase, you can get a Dual 2Ghz without Superdrive and without modem for $2494.
Is that good enough?