And the assumption that everyone in the world wants fiddly prosumer machines continues. I agree that Apple should either drop the price or raise the performance on the iMac, because it just hasn't been selling like it ought to. But I don't see low-end headless machines as the answer to that. Apple just has to make the iMac more attractive than it has been since it went to an LCD.
Don't make me whip out my lineup.
The low-end headless machines are the answer to people who want to spend less than $1k on a computer, and who want a choice other than the 17" CRT monitor that comes with the eMac. The mid-range headless machine is the answer to people who want to spend around $1k to $1.5k on a computer, and who want a choice other than the 15" or 17" LCD that comes with the iMac. Apple's made a good start by keeping the PowerMac G4 around, and they need to go further.
All I do, and I think it is typical of most everyone, is surf the Internet and play the occasional (RTS) game. For that, I don't need a Power Mac, but I want the 20" 1680x1050 ACD or a 15" 1440x960 notebook without having to spend over $2000 on it.
The criticism of the eMac and iMac is that they don't offer a good performance/price ratio. I think Apple needs headless low-end and mid-range machines in the prescribed price ranges as standard operating prodecure. The eMacs and iMacs can be considered unique Macs with specialized markets, and I think can co-exist with a 3 tiered headless range of machines. The most important thing is to have a constant performance/price ratio for all the machines.
Only true from K-3, they start handing laptops to kids in 5/6. If they trust them enough with laptops, they trust them with generally more durable LCD desktops.
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The eMac debuted $100 cheaper than the iMac, so no.
This has more to do with Apple's unwillingness to put a fair consumer price on the machine. More for Apple's margins than schools' budgets.
Quote:
Schools (K-12) like and demand monolithic all-in-ones, going all the way back to the Performa era. The fewer things there are for kids to manipulate and break and knock over, the better.
See laptop comment. Now add an explanation for the proliferation of towers in gradeschools and universities? AIO must not be so important that it trumps price, you know it isn't and neither is mac.
Quote:
In a university, the durability/manipulability point is moot, because you arne't dealing with children.
I could show you plenty of instances of university students being far more destructive than gradeschoolers. But it isn't moot. The health concerns of universities and schools are the same. Gradeschools are buying LCD's, not Apple LCD's, b/c they cost too much, but LCD's w/ towers. Neither the AIO nor the CRT are that dear to schools.
Quote:
Laptops with CRTs are pretty hard to find.
Remember those threads about thinCRT ? hahaha...
Quote:
The iBook is specially reinforced for that market. And, guess what, the youngest kids (K-3) still don't get it. They get eMacs.
I wouldn't say that the iBooks are any more durable than the AL books; less so, in fact. Agree about K-3, BUT, when you're handing laptops to 5/6, the percieved vulnerability of an LCD is clearly NOT an issue.
K-3, in any grade school I've seen, gets the hand-me-downs. I've seen K-3 classrooms with Apple ]['s and C-64's up untill a few years ago, and now they have the older towers/monitors that get demoted from a schools's "lab"
Making a computer just for K-3 seems like a bad idea. eMac was made to buffer the iMac's move upmarket. It was a miscalculation and needs to be adressed. Schools were/are largely inconsequential to its existence.
Things that could make the iMac more attractive to conusmers:[list=a][*]lower price. Starting out at $999 seams to be the consensus, though I think they could drop the HD size and installed memory size (?) and offer an entry level for $799-899 so that they have a lower entry price for advertisements. The basic R&D is paid for on the iMac, it is basically a legacy of the G3 iMac and the PowerBook. Also components such as LCD's and SuperDrives have droped in price signifigantly since the introduction of the FP iMac, it is time Apple takes advantage of this to better leverage their products in the market.
[*]Faster processor. This one is a no brainer. After the iMacs introductioin they went over 12 months without a speed increase. This needs to be made up for to keep the iMac competative, even at the price reductions that Apple needs to make. Also, G4's are dropping in price. PowerLogix 1.2 G4 upgrade is now $369. Motorolla will be further pressured by the market to drop prices futher, or risk loosing even more sales to IBM and their 970.
[*]Increase the FSB speed. This makes the iMac more attractive to people who already own Macs that can be upgraded to loosen thier wallets and buy a new Mac iinstead of buying an upgrade.
[*]Increase the Video System. This should be upgraded every 6 months to keep up with ATI and Nvidia, as well as make new iMacs more attractive.
[*]Add Video in. ATI has the technology (AIW cards), Apple had it at one time (and I'm sure they still do). I dont know that they need a tuner, though unless they are adding a HDTV tuner this shouldnt be a major expense. Steve may not like TV, but the rest of the world does. Apple is risking missing the boat here like they did with CDR's. Steve should be embaresed that they dont have this now, it would make iMacs (the higher end systems with SuberDrives) so much more attractive in conjunction with iMovie, and iDVD, Quicktime, etc. It could also help to increase the market share that Quicktime has as a video standard. I knwot that this would add cost to iMacs, but it dosnt have to be on the entry iMac.[/list=a]
OR, they could just make them pink, green and purple again. Seemed to work wonders last time...
but the price progressively dropped, and the were incressing speed...starting out at 233 and going to 500 mhz with the G3. Besides, Flower power Rules, not blueberry...
I suspect the next iMac will be a revised design. Perhaps an aluminum enclosure with no more stainless steel neck. I don't think there will be a G5 for the iMac until late in '04. There will need to be several generations of G5's in the Power line before that I believe.
It will be lucite/white. Apple is making the Pro stuff metal for a reason: they want distinct characteristics that seperate the Pro lineup from the Consumer lineup.
Only true from K-3, they start handing laptops to kids in 5/6. If they trust them enough with laptops, they trust them with generally more durable LCD desktops.
But if you can get eMacs for everyone, why not?
Quote:
See laptop comment. Now add an explanation for the proliferation of towers in gradeschools and universities? AIO must not be so important that it trumps price, you know it isn't and neither is mac.
You're ignoring that the towers are WinTel boxes, and they're stripped-down enterprise desktops (except for the schools with older students, who can justify getting real hardware for e.g. video work). That's what happens when you bring enterprise IT people into education, as administrators have done. The suitability of the platform, and of the machines, for the job is irrelevant in this case: The goal is to put in whatever corporations are using, so there is literally and intentionally no attention paid to the suitability of the solution for education.
Quote:
I could show you plenty of instances of university students being far more destructive than gradeschoolers. But it isn't moot. The health concerns of universities and schools are the same. Gradeschools are buying LCD's, not Apple LCD's, b/c they cost too much, but LCD's w/ towers. Neither the AIO nor the CRT are that dear to schools.
You claim that - and maybe it's true in your part of Canada - but, again, several huge school districts demanded something like the eMac if they were going to stay with Apple, and this is in line with educational demands going back to the 68K era. Lemmings might be bringing in corporate solutions in a Quixotic attempt to turn education completely vocational, but since that crusade also requires Windows it's not a trend that Apple can follow: They're barely tolerated in corporate IT.
Quote:
Remember those threads about thinCRT ? hahaha...
I do, because I started at least one of them. But it's still hard to find a notebook with a CRT.
Quote:
Making a computer just for K-3 seems like a bad idea. eMac was made to buffer the iMac's move upmarket. It was a miscalculation and needs to be adressed. Schools were/are largely inconsequential to its existence.
Then explain the LA County Department of Ed. Explain the Molar G3, and the outcry when it was replaced by the original iMac. Explain the Performa that preceded it. Sorry, Matsu, but education and the AIO go way, way back.
Comments
Originally posted by Amorph
And the assumption that everyone in the world wants fiddly prosumer machines continues. I agree that Apple should either drop the price or raise the performance on the iMac, because it just hasn't been selling like it ought to. But I don't see low-end headless machines as the answer to that. Apple just has to make the iMac more attractive than it has been since it went to an LCD.
Don't make me whip out my lineup.
The low-end headless machines are the answer to people who want to spend less than $1k on a computer, and who want a choice other than the 17" CRT monitor that comes with the eMac. The mid-range headless machine is the answer to people who want to spend around $1k to $1.5k on a computer, and who want a choice other than the 15" or 17" LCD that comes with the iMac. Apple's made a good start by keeping the PowerMac G4 around, and they need to go further.
All I do, and I think it is typical of most everyone, is surf the Internet and play the occasional (RTS) game. For that, I don't need a Power Mac, but I want the 20" 1680x1050 ACD or a 15" 1440x960 notebook without having to spend over $2000 on it.
The criticism of the eMac and iMac is that they don't offer a good performance/price ratio. I think Apple needs headless low-end and mid-range machines in the prescribed price ranges as standard operating prodecure. The eMacs and iMacs can be considered unique Macs with specialized markets, and I think can co-exist with a 3 tiered headless range of machines. The most important thing is to have a constant performance/price ratio for all the machines.
Originally posted by Amorph
Dead wrong. K-12, Matsu. Kids.
Only true from K-3, they start handing laptops to kids in 5/6. If they trust them enough with laptops, they trust them with generally more durable LCD desktops.
The eMac debuted $100 cheaper than the iMac, so no.
This has more to do with Apple's unwillingness to put a fair consumer price on the machine. More for Apple's margins than schools' budgets.
Schools (K-12) like and demand monolithic all-in-ones, going all the way back to the Performa era. The fewer things there are for kids to manipulate and break and knock over, the better.
See laptop comment. Now add an explanation for the proliferation of towers in gradeschools and universities? AIO must not be so important that it trumps price, you know it isn't and neither is mac.
In a university, the durability/manipulability point is moot, because you arne't dealing with children.
I could show you plenty of instances of university students being far more destructive than gradeschoolers. But it isn't moot. The health concerns of universities and schools are the same. Gradeschools are buying LCD's, not Apple LCD's, b/c they cost too much, but LCD's w/ towers. Neither the AIO nor the CRT are that dear to schools.
Laptops with CRTs are pretty hard to find.
Remember those threads about thinCRT ? hahaha...
The iBook is specially reinforced for that market. And, guess what, the youngest kids (K-3) still don't get it. They get eMacs.
I wouldn't say that the iBooks are any more durable than the AL books; less so, in fact. Agree about K-3, BUT, when you're handing laptops to 5/6, the percieved vulnerability of an LCD is clearly NOT an issue.
K-3, in any grade school I've seen, gets the hand-me-downs. I've seen K-3 classrooms with Apple ]['s and C-64's up untill a few years ago, and now they have the older towers/monitors that get demoted from a schools's "lab"
Making a computer just for K-3 seems like a bad idea. eMac was made to buffer the iMac's move upmarket. It was a miscalculation and needs to be adressed. Schools were/are largely inconsequential to its existence.
[*]Faster processor. This one is a no brainer. After the iMacs introductioin they went over 12 months without a speed increase. This needs to be made up for to keep the iMac competative, even at the price reductions that Apple needs to make. Also, G4's are dropping in price. PowerLogix 1.2 G4 upgrade is now $369. Motorolla will be further pressured by the market to drop prices futher, or risk loosing even more sales to IBM and their 970.
[*]Increase the FSB speed. This makes the iMac more attractive to people who already own Macs that can be upgraded to loosen thier wallets and buy a new Mac iinstead of buying an upgrade.
[*]Increase the Video System. This should be upgraded every 6 months to keep up with ATI and Nvidia, as well as make new iMacs more attractive.
[*]Add Video in. ATI has the technology (AIW cards), Apple had it at one time (and I'm sure they still do). I dont know that they need a tuner, though unless they are adding a HDTV tuner this shouldnt be a major expense. Steve may not like TV, but the rest of the world does. Apple is risking missing the boat here like they did with CDR's. Steve should be embaresed that they dont have this now, it would make iMacs (the higher end systems with SuberDrives) so much more attractive in conjunction with iMovie, and iDVD, Quicktime, etc. It could also help to increase the market share that Quicktime has as a video standard. I knwot that this would add cost to iMacs, but it dosnt have to be on the entry iMac.[/list=a]
Originally posted by pscates
OR, they could just make them pink, green and purple again. Seemed to work wonders last time...
but the price progressively dropped, and the were incressing speed...starting out at 233 and going to 500 mhz with the G3. Besides, Flower power Rules, not blueberry...
Originally posted by MacsRGood4U
I suspect the next iMac will be a revised design. Perhaps an aluminum enclosure with no more stainless steel neck. I don't think there will be a G5 for the iMac until late in '04. There will need to be several generations of G5's in the Power line before that I believe.
It will be lucite/white. Apple is making the Pro stuff metal for a reason: they want distinct characteristics that seperate the Pro lineup from the Consumer lineup.
Originally posted by Matsu
Only true from K-3, they start handing laptops to kids in 5/6. If they trust them enough with laptops, they trust them with generally more durable LCD desktops.
But if you can get eMacs for everyone, why not?
See laptop comment. Now add an explanation for the proliferation of towers in gradeschools and universities? AIO must not be so important that it trumps price, you know it isn't and neither is mac.
You're ignoring that the towers are WinTel boxes, and they're stripped-down enterprise desktops (except for the schools with older students, who can justify getting real hardware for e.g. video work). That's what happens when you bring enterprise IT people into education, as administrators have done. The suitability of the platform, and of the machines, for the job is irrelevant in this case: The goal is to put in whatever corporations are using, so there is literally and intentionally no attention paid to the suitability of the solution for education.
I could show you plenty of instances of university students being far more destructive than gradeschoolers. But it isn't moot. The health concerns of universities and schools are the same. Gradeschools are buying LCD's, not Apple LCD's, b/c they cost too much, but LCD's w/ towers. Neither the AIO nor the CRT are that dear to schools.
You claim that - and maybe it's true in your part of Canada - but, again, several huge school districts demanded something like the eMac if they were going to stay with Apple, and this is in line with educational demands going back to the 68K era. Lemmings might be bringing in corporate solutions in a Quixotic attempt to turn education completely vocational, but since that crusade also requires Windows it's not a trend that Apple can follow: They're barely tolerated in corporate IT.
Remember those threads about thinCRT ? hahaha...
I do, because I started at least one of them.
Making a computer just for K-3 seems like a bad idea. eMac was made to buffer the iMac's move upmarket. It was a miscalculation and needs to be adressed. Schools were/are largely inconsequential to its existence.
Then explain the LA County Department of Ed. Explain the Molar G3, and the outcry when it was replaced by the original iMac. Explain the Performa that preceded it. Sorry, Matsu, but education and the AIO go way, way back.