The discussion I was having had nothing to do with "how much is enough", it was about how much ARE we giving. If you think less than 0.7% of our budget is really extending ourselves, then fine, we know where your priorities lie (i.e., yourself).
BTW, the years 1992-2001, Japan was the largest raw dollar giver in the world (this ended mainly due to Yen depreciation), to say nothing of percentage of GNP, where the US has been last among industrialized nations for years.
Don't forget the philanthropy of many rich Americans. Bill Gates, Ted Turner, the Fords, the Carneiges, the Rockefellers. Maybe they are just buying politicians, but billions of their bucks make it out there. How many non-Americans give billions from their own pockets? And what is their motivation?
a continent that has a massive history of anti-Semitism that currently on the rise again
You forgot to include UBB non sequitur tags with that statement.
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
The fact is Americans DO work harder....
This is true. Americans do work harder. I have plenty of international business experience myself, and I know that I am expected to work longer hours in NY then I was when I lived and worked in Brussels. I don't know that I am more productive, however. I seem to spend an awful lot of time in meetings and teleconferences. I have not been able to take one of my (few) vacation days in five months and, to be honest, I'm starting to get a little tired.
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
...it is the Europeans who are playing catch up in terms of work ethic.
That's a matter of opinion. Productivity being equal (or at least comparable), does a 38 hour work week make less sense to you than a 55 hour one?
Americans do work harder. I have plenty of international business experience myself, and I know that I am expected to work longer hours in NY then I was when I lived and worked in Brussels. I don't know that I am more productive, however. I seem to spend an awful lot of time in meetings and teleconferences.
Fair enough...but if the Marshall Plan made more sense for America in investment terms than doing nothing, where does the debt of gratitude come in?
It is a question of decency. If someone helps you, whether they have another motive or not, it would be nice to acknowledge the fact that you received help. In the case of France, aside from the Marshall Plan, we did liberate their country (forgive me if I downplay the role of the "french resistance". In the case of Germany and Japan, who started the war, we were gracious enough to them back on their feet, buffer or not, once we ended the war for them. I'm sure all of these countries would have recovered on their own, but I am also sure we helped them recover faster and less painfully.
Europe and Japan should owe us a debt of gratitude nonetheless (they appear to have amnesia instead) .
I'm certain the WWII generation of occupied Europe will never forget the America they knew and worshipped some forty to sixty odd years ago. However, their "debt of gratitude" has been repaid a long time ago. And gratitude is simply not something you inherit. It must be earned.
The really sad facts are that the ideals behind the Marshall plan and other laudable american initiatives in post-war Europe are long gone. They still flourish in Europe, but are few and far between in todays America.
You may like to think so, but values such as; freedom,
equality, tolerance and opportunity is not something the ordinary european associate with 21th century America.
Instead they see an ugly beast spewing out violence, greed and intolerance. And that can be no good for nobody (except for the business cronies of pResident Bush)
Last time I checked, I earned that money. How can the govt give away something back to the original owner?
It's good to know that these are the only things that the US Govt wastes its money on. And here I thought all those alphabet agencies did so much more. Thanks for clarifying.
Not when tax cuts are targeted at those with kids. Where's my rebate check? HMM?
Anyway, if Bush really wanted to make an impact on the economy he would have cut the payroll tax, not income tax. He simply was returning the favor to his consituents that donated money to him.
Well, actually the european edition, which is more aimed at convincing the UK to stop emulating the US and admit that we're a lot closer to Europe in political and social areas than we are to the current right-wing US, despite the obvious language factors:
The guy knows his stuff and is more than just a talking head, all his points are backed up in the book with full references and stats.
I recomend it highly to anyone interested in this kind of thing. You'll hate it if your the kind of American who spits on social contracts without giving the slightest appearance of knowing what one is but you might learn something anyway.
On the other hand if you're a European who understands that the world doesn't break down into the binary categories of capitalists and communists you'll probably like his ideas.
I recently read Michael Grant's The Fall Of Rome: A Reappraisal and it is very very relevant.
Rome fell because of many internal schisms but mainly it fell because of an unfair policy of taxation: everybody carried the burden for paying much needed taxation. . . Poor paid as much as the Rich . . .
. . . except that (of course) the rich always manged to avoid it somehow.
A main part of this problem was (and Christianity has much to do with this) people no longer recognized that the function of the Government was not merely to take money but was to organize, fund, and realize a very important infrastructure. An infrastructure that allowed all other forms of commerce and exchange to take place. In other words they hated "government" and therefor lost it . . . the 'Dark Ages' quickly ensued.
The people came to think that the state was less important than it really was: they stopped caring about all of its functions and left them crumbling . . . and, very importantly, the Roman Citizens (as opposed to non-citizen residents (Visigoths and various others) began to think of the army as beneath them, the rich and sons of land owners and Senators avoided it entirely . . . of course
. . .but the whole time while it was crumbling there was a rise in the nostalghia for the great' Old Rome', and those who were proud of their heritage never doubted how great and mighty their present Rome was . . . all the way up until the Visigoths usurped the region entirely and Rome dissipated . . . They were too proud and blinded by jingoism to see what was very obviouse all around them . . . the rhetoric of some of the Senators of the time (just two or three years before the final collapse) is pure KITSCH and worthy of a Truck-stop propaganda art-works
The Moral?! :
infrastructure is important beyond what we know: civilization rests upon it.
We all participate in it, if the Rich don't do their part that's the beginning of the form of corruption that ends even the strongest of Empires
We shouldn't pretend that we are all atomized and separated individuals able to manage with just our Ford f250 pick-up and rifle-mount: we are part of a civilization and though we are responsible individuals with the ability to choose our minds we should recognize that we are responsible for the well being of the framework which sustains us: we participate by paying taxes.
Military is also important and shouldn't be slandered, AND, shouldn't be privatized (as was the final versions of Rome's army: mercenaries who turn-coated at a whim)
also, we should not reflexively refuse to think critically about the current, past or future state of our Great country: in fact to do so can be the best form of real patriotism.
Now we are at it. If anyone is interested in what I think will be the next big thing in the academic disciplin of International Relations go buy this book:
Of course I am a bit biased since Wæver is my old professor. But I have never met a theory that on one hand is basically realist in its view but still manage to include aspects that doesn´t forget that everything is situated in a certaint set of conditions that influence the way desitions are taken. A happy marriage between realism and constructivism. Wendt but with realism instead of liberalism.
We didn't start that war, and those two bombs SAVED a few million lives on both sides (the price of a full scale invasion, that would have leveled ALL of Japan and an estimated 2 million allied casualties).
So you're saying attacking civilians is OK if it prevents an all out war?
MY point was that expecting alot of gratitude from a country we dropped atomic bombs is a little far fetched.
You know, to this day we still protect Japan. If North Korea decided to attack Japan (unlikely, perhaps, but so were Pearl Harbor and 9/11), it will be us defending them. So not only did we rebuild their country, but we have protected them for 50 years. I guess we SHOULD expect their text books to act like we forced them into WW2.
Thankyou America for saving us from those Fascists.
Thankyou America for saving us from the Russians.
Thankyou America for saving us from Fidel Castro.
Thankyou America for saving us with the Berlin airlift.
Thankyou America for saving Israel : Yom Kippur.
Thankyou America for saving us from all the baddies..
Thankyou America for Superman, for Batman.
Thankyou America for all the money...especially your money...
And to show you our gratitude we will kill you and your families & all your babies and all your dumb peace keeping soldiers and your stoopid democratic way of life..you make us sick..we hate you so so much..
Comments
Originally posted by james808
I file that under the "it was an investment" part
Fair enough...but if the Marshall Plan made more sense for America in investment terms than doing nothing, where does the debt of gratitude come in?
Originally posted by james808
The discussion I was having had nothing to do with "how much is enough", it was about how much ARE we giving. If you think less than 0.7% of our budget is really extending ourselves, then fine, we know where your priorities lie (i.e., yourself).
BTW, the years 1992-2001, Japan was the largest raw dollar giver in the world (this ended mainly due to Yen depreciation), to say nothing of percentage of GNP, where the US has been last among industrialized nations for years.
Don't forget the philanthropy of many rich Americans. Bill Gates, Ted Turner, the Fords, the Carneiges, the Rockefellers. Maybe they are just buying politicians, but billions of their bucks make it out there. How many non-Americans give billions from their own pockets? And what is their motivation?
They MUST have underhanded reasons.
"rolling my eyes"
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
a continent that has a massive history of anti-Semitism that currently on the rise again
You forgot to include UBB non sequitur tags with that statement.
Originally posted by SDW2001
The fact is Americans DO work harder....
This is true. Americans do work harder. I have plenty of international business experience myself, and I know that I am expected to work longer hours in NY then I was when I lived and worked in Brussels. I don't know that I am more productive, however. I seem to spend an awful lot of time in meetings and teleconferences. I have not been able to take one of my (few) vacation days in five months and, to be honest, I'm starting to get a little tired.
Originally posted by SDW2001
...it is the Europeans who are playing catch up in terms of work ethic.
That's a matter of opinion. Productivity being equal (or at least comparable), does a 38 hour work week make less sense to you than a 55 hour one?
Americans do work harder. I have plenty of international business experience myself, and I know that I am expected to work longer hours in NY then I was when I lived and worked in Brussels. I don't know that I am more productive, however. I seem to spend an awful lot of time in meetings and teleconferences.
Thank you....
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Fair enough...but if the Marshall Plan made more sense for America in investment terms than doing nothing, where does the debt of gratitude come in?
It is a question of decency. If someone helps you, whether they have another motive or not, it would be nice to acknowledge the fact that you received help. In the case of France, aside from the Marshall Plan, we did liberate their country (forgive me if I downplay the role of the "french resistance". In the case of Germany and Japan, who started the war, we were gracious enough to them back on their feet, buffer or not, once we ended the war for them. I'm sure all of these countries would have recovered on their own, but I am also sure we helped them recover faster and less painfully.
Originally posted by james808
Europe and Japan should owe us a debt of gratitude nonetheless (they appear to have amnesia instead) .
I'm certain the WWII generation of occupied Europe will never forget the America they knew and worshipped some forty to sixty odd years ago. However, their "debt of gratitude" has been repaid a long time ago. And gratitude is simply not something you inherit. It must be earned.
The really sad facts are that the ideals behind the Marshall plan and other laudable american initiatives in post-war Europe are long gone. They still flourish in Europe, but are few and far between in todays America.
You may like to think so, but values such as; freedom,
equality, tolerance and opportunity is not something the ordinary european associate with 21th century America.
Instead they see an ugly beast spewing out violence, greed and intolerance. And that can be no good for nobody (except for the business cronies of pResident Bush)
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
Since when does the govt give away tax cuts?
Last time I checked, I earned that money. How can the govt give away something back to the original owner?
It's good to know that these are the only things that the US Govt wastes its money on. And here I thought all those alphabet agencies did so much more. Thanks for clarifying.
Not when tax cuts are targeted at those with kids. Where's my rebate check? HMM?
Anyway, if Bush really wanted to make an impact on the economy he would have cut the payroll tax, not income tax. He simply was returning the favor to his consituents that donated money to him.
A Declaration of Interdependence: Why America Should Join the World
Well, actually the european edition, which is more aimed at convincing the UK to stop emulating the US and admit that we're a lot closer to Europe in political and social areas than we are to the current right-wing US, despite the obvious language factors:
The World We're in
This is the follow-up to the equally excellent (but UK focused i.e. why conservativism is pants):
The State We're in
The guy knows his stuff and is more than just a talking head, all his points are backed up in the book with full references and stats.
I recomend it highly to anyone interested in this kind of thing. You'll hate it if your the kind of American who spits on social contracts without giving the slightest appearance of knowing what one is but you might learn something anyway.
On the other hand if you're a European who understands that the world doesn't break down into the binary categories of capitalists and communists you'll probably like his ideas.
I recently read Michael Grant's The Fall Of Rome: A Reappraisal and it is very very relevant.
Rome fell because of many internal schisms but mainly it fell because of an unfair policy of taxation: everybody carried the burden for paying much needed taxation. . . Poor paid as much as the Rich . . .
. . . except that (of course) the rich always manged to avoid it somehow.
A main part of this problem was (and Christianity has much to do with this) people no longer recognized that the function of the Government was not merely to take money but was to organize, fund, and realize a very important infrastructure. An infrastructure that allowed all other forms of commerce and exchange to take place. In other words they hated "government" and therefor lost it . . . the 'Dark Ages' quickly ensued.
The people came to think that the state was less important than it really was: they stopped caring about all of its functions and left them crumbling . . . and, very importantly, the Roman Citizens (as opposed to non-citizen residents (Visigoths and various others) began to think of the army as beneath them, the rich and sons of land owners and Senators avoided it entirely . . . of course
. . .but the whole time while it was crumbling there was a rise in the nostalghia for the great' Old Rome', and those who were proud of their heritage never doubted how great and mighty their present Rome was . . . all the way up until the Visigoths usurped the region entirely and Rome dissipated . . . They were too proud and blinded by jingoism to see what was very obviouse all around them . . . the rhetoric of some of the Senators of the time (just two or three years before the final collapse) is pure KITSCH and worthy of a Truck-stop propaganda art-works
The Moral?! :
infrastructure is important beyond what we know: civilization rests upon it.
We all participate in it, if the Rich don't do their part that's the beginning of the form of corruption that ends even the strongest of Empires
We shouldn't pretend that we are all atomized and separated individuals able to manage with just our Ford f250 pick-up and rifle-mount: we are part of a civilization and though we are responsible individuals with the ability to choose our minds we should recognize that we are responsible for the well being of the framework which sustains us: we participate by paying taxes.
Military is also important and shouldn't be slandered, AND, shouldn't be privatized (as was the final versions of Rome's army: mercenaries who turn-coated at a whim)
also, we should not reflexively refuse to think critically about the current, past or future state of our Great country: in fact to do so can be the best form of real patriotism.
just thoughts . . . now back to semi-exile.
.
.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books
Of course I am a bit biased since Wæver is my old professor. But I have never met a theory that on one hand is basically realist in its view but still manage to include aspects that doesn´t forget that everything is situated in a certaint set of conditions that influence the way desitions are taken. A happy marriage between realism and constructivism. Wendt but with realism instead of liberalism.
Originally posted by james808
We didn't start that war, and those two bombs SAVED a few million lives on both sides (the price of a full scale invasion, that would have leveled ALL of Japan and an estimated 2 million allied casualties).
So you're saying attacking civilians is OK if it prevents an all out war?
Originally posted by bunge
So you're saying attacking civilians is OK if it prevents an all out war?
Yes, in this case it was. Many more civilians were killed by US firebombs than were killed by the atom bombs. It was a war.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
MY point was that expecting alot of gratitude from a country we dropped atomic bombs is a little far fetched.
You're right! It's time to stop ALL money from America to pour into Japan!
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
You're right! It's time to stop ALL money from America to pour into Japan!
Eh? What will you do? Make it illigal to buy Japanese goods?
Originally posted by chu_bakka
MY point was that expecting alot of gratitude from a country we dropped atomic bombs is a little far fetched.
You know, to this day we still protect Japan. If North Korea decided to attack Japan (unlikely, perhaps, but so were Pearl Harbor and 9/11), it will be us defending them. So not only did we rebuild their country, but we have protected them for 50 years. I guess we SHOULD expect their text books to act like we forced them into WW2.
Originally posted by Anders
Eh? What will you do? Make it illigal to buy Japanese goods?
I think I did say "isolationist".
Keep your neighbours employed!
Thankyou America for saving us from the Nazis.
Thankyou America for saving us from those Fascists.
Thankyou America for saving us from the Russians.
Thankyou America for saving us from Fidel Castro.
Thankyou America for saving us with the Berlin airlift.
Thankyou America for saving Israel : Yom Kippur.
Thankyou America for saving us from all the baddies..
Thankyou America for Superman, for Batman.
Thankyou America for all the money...especially your money...
And to show you our gratitude we will kill you and your families & all your babies and all your dumb peace keeping soldiers and your stoopid democratic way of life..you make us sick..we hate you so so much..
But pleeze keep the money coming...$$$$$$