And please, tell me which religion it is promoting.... Catholic, Anabaptist, Branch Davidian, Seventh-Day Adventist.
I can't for sure say it is even one of the Christianity... Christ isn't even mentioned in them. So once again, it sounds like they are generalized words.
Don't be blatantly obtuse. Stop playing games. I'll get back to you when you really want to discuss the issue.
Don't forget the inclusiveness of those without religion as well.
Of course, but some without religion are intolerant to religion, so they can't both represent religion and those opposed to it. Point is, the government can't logistically deal with stuff like this fairly, so they shouldn't deal with it.
And I'm sure there are people who would read those words as they see fit too.
Yes, I guess that's right. I'm an atheist but I don't believe in stealing. That doesn't have anything to do with the ten commandments though, it's just basic human morality. Now, I outright contradict at least one of the commandments in that I don't hold Thy Great Lord God With Thy Great White Beard In The Sky as my god. I don't hold anyone as my god. I only know four of the commandments... the ones prohibiting stealing, killing, adultery, and being a heathen. As I said before, I would not steal or kill, and I probably wouldn't commit adultery, but those have nothing to do with the commandments themselves. It's not like I was a murderer until I heard about them and immediately I stopped.
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They are just words - some of which are based on laws that exist (like do not steal).
They are NOT just words. They are words passed down to Moses from God himself, according to the Bible. I don't follow the Bible. I have a very basic knowledge of it. If someone came up and said, "Hey, don't steal or kill anyone," I'd be like, "Okay man, wasn't planning on it." If someone came up to me and said "The earth was created 6,000 years ago, in seven days, by an omnipotent being in the sky, and the entire human race came from two people created by that being" I'd respond with "You have a really skewed view of the world don't you?" Just because some words in the Bible make sense doesn't mean they can be put in a government building. That's promoting a religion.
Also, they aren't based on laws that exist today. Today's laws are based in old laws like the Ten Commandments and the Code of Hammurabi and stuff. How could today's laws be the basis for something that was written thousands of years ago?
Quote:
Where within them is the govt promoting a specific religious denomination? How by having them posted is the govt enforcing following them? So far, we've learned a lot of history, but no one has indicated how this posting will create a problem.
Are you retarded or just high? If the government engraved the book of Exodus (or really any part of the Bible) all over the walls of a government building, they'd be saying "We hold Christianity in higher regard than other religions, which we chose not to quote in our engraving." It's impossible to represent ALL religions in the world, so therefore they must instead represent NONE of them.
The government isn't enforcing following the Ten Commandments. But they're strongly encouraging people to do so. Not that the world would be a worse place if everyone stopped killing and stealing and cheating on each other. But the fact is they have these prominently displayed in a government building, which is a violation of the separation of church and state.
What if they put a big statue of Jesus on the cross in the building? Would that be promoting a religion? I think it would be. And this is no different. It's a different symbol of Christianity, but it's a symbol nonetheless.
I think this country has done a pretty good job of seperating church and state. And what is being done is the christian fundamentalists are trying to inject religion into government...
This isn't about political correctness... it's about one judge's attempt to interject his specific beliefs into the courts while excluding others.
And just because god is mentioned in our nation's founding documents does not mean tthat they intended
to endorse a specific belief system. If anything they purposely intended to say there shall be no specific governemnt endorsed religion and that government would not ban any religion.
And despite what conservatives and fundamentalists want... this country was founded on the idea of inclusion and opportunities for all.
Well, the laws of the USA [edit: oops!] are generally based/assumed on Judeo-Christian morality. I realize a lot of people love to hate organized religions, particularly wpredominantly western ones, but the whole separation of church and state isn't about the exclusion or shunning of religion, it's about the guaranteed tolerance and inclusion of all religions. If there's a 10 Commandments sculpture in front of a government building, there should be similar symbols of all religions or religious laws there too. Separation of church and state is to ensure inclusiveness, no special treatment for any one, two or three major religions.
Once, twice, thrice unbelieveable. Let's include everyone! If you represent "all" religions, then you might as well through in Satanic religions, Wahabi muslims, and people that worship those who ahve sex with furniture. Your statement and belief is exactly what is wrong.
Yeah, damn, it kinda sucks that the government isn't allowed to squelch religious freedom and just brainwash everyone to believe the same thing, doesn't it?
As far as the problems associated with representing EVERY religion in the world, I addressed them in my post a little ways up. Instead of trying to promote every religion in the world (which is impossible) or promoting only some (which is unfair), the government should just stay out of such matters.
and you make the point for us... if the government doesn't officially recognize any one belief system... it can't really exclude any either... it removes itself from the debate.
Are you retarded or just high? If the government engraved the book of Exodus (or really any part of the Bible) all over the walls of a government building, they'd be saying "We hold Christianity in higher regard than other religions, which we chose not to quote in our engraving." It's impossible to represent ALL religions in the world, so therefore they must instead represent NONE of them.
The government isn't enforcing following the Ten Commandments. But they're strongly encouraging people to do so. Not that the world would be a worse place if everyone stopped killing and stealing and cheating on each other.
What if they put a big statue of Jesus on the cross in the building? Would that be promoting a religion? I think it would be. And this is no different. It's a different symbol of Christianity, but it's a symbol nonetheless.
Thanks for the intelligent character attacks. Really helps drive home a point!
Encouragement and holding things in high regard has no legal basis to be enforced, so that makes it a non-issue. From what I can tell, this is about what is legal.
And putting up a symbol of Jesus would violate that commandment about graven images. I can think of a couple of hypocritical "Christian" religions that do that, and others that don't.
So once again, which denomination is being promoted here?
Okay, I'll refrain from personal attacks now as it really doesn't get me anywhere. I just found it EXTREMELY hard to believe that you don't know where the ten commandments come from. Weren't they in the Old Testament? That's a religious text right? Therefore it's promoting religion. I don't care what sect of Christianity it is, I can't tell any of them apart anyway. It's promoting religion, and that is what matters.
So here's my counter to your argument of "what denomination is it promoting?" - How, exactly, is displaying the Ten Commandments in a government building NOT a way of promoting a religion (that's ANY religion, which denomination does not matter!!!!)?
Let's include everyone! If you represent "all" religions, then you might as well through in Satanic religions, Wahabi muslims, and people that worship those who ahve sex with furniture.
Thanks for the intelligent character attacks. Really helps drive home a point!
Encouragement and holding things in high regard has no legal basis to be enforced, so that makes it a non-issue. From what I can tell, this is about what is legal.
And putting up a symbol of Jesus would violate that commandment about graven images. I can think of a couple of hypocritical "Christian" religions that do that, and others that don't.
So once again, which denomination is being promoted here?
The Fed Ruled it to be illegal.
Supremacy Clause.
Judge breaking the law.
Judge should be stripped of his robes (not in public..we don't want to see that).
Afraid not. There's a commandement about the sabbath, and a commandment about graven images. These are viewed differently by "Protestants".
So again, which denomination is the govt trying to establish as a religion?
Enough of this bullshit. This is one particular flavor of christianity over every other goddamn religion on the planet. Cut it out. Hell, call it AlabamaChiefJusticeWhoIsBreakingTheLawByIgnoringTh eSupremacyClauseIsm for all I care.
Wow, Jim, I like how you just skirt around the issue using the "broken record" technique! It's almost as effective as calling someone retarded or high.
As BR said, it's promoting a religion. Because the government is not allowed to promote ANY religion, it doesn't matter WHICH religion is being promoted. Just like if someone commits murder, it doesn't matter if they killed a street bum or the CEO of a large company, they will be punished equally (not necessarily in our flawed legal system, but nothing is perfect, and that's for a different discussion altogether). The murderer can't get up on the witness stand and defend himself by constantly raising questions about the identity of the victim.
I really don't care which religion it's promoting, but it needs to stop. I really don't care who was killed yesterday, but the killer should still be punished.
Comments
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
Finally. No more holidays!
And please, tell me which religion it is promoting.... Catholic, Anabaptist, Branch Davidian, Seventh-Day Adventist.
I can't for sure say it is even one of the Christianity... Christ isn't even mentioned in them. So once again, it sounds like they are generalized words.
Don't be blatantly obtuse. Stop playing games. I'll get back to you when you really want to discuss the issue.
Originally posted by BR
Don't be blatantly obtuse. Stop playing games. I'll get back to you when you really want to discuss the issue.
When you do, tell me which day is the Sabbath for Christians.
I'm sure the Seventh Day Adventist and the Catholics will readily agree on whichever one you deem.
Again, which religious denomination is promoted by the govt here?
Originally posted by BR
Don't forget the inclusiveness of those without religion as well.
Of course, but some without religion are intolerant to religion, so they can't both represent religion and those opposed to it.
And I'm sure there are people who would read those words as they see fit too.
Yes, I guess that's right. I'm an atheist but I don't believe in stealing. That doesn't have anything to do with the ten commandments though, it's just basic human morality. Now, I outright contradict at least one of the commandments in that I don't hold Thy Great Lord God With Thy Great White Beard In The Sky as my god. I don't hold anyone as my god. I only know four of the commandments... the ones prohibiting stealing, killing, adultery, and being a heathen. As I said before, I would not steal or kill, and I probably wouldn't commit adultery, but those have nothing to do with the commandments themselves. It's not like I was a murderer until I heard about them and immediately I stopped.
They are just words - some of which are based on laws that exist (like do not steal).
They are NOT just words. They are words passed down to Moses from God himself, according to the Bible. I don't follow the Bible. I have a very basic knowledge of it. If someone came up and said, "Hey, don't steal or kill anyone," I'd be like, "Okay man, wasn't planning on it." If someone came up to me and said "The earth was created 6,000 years ago, in seven days, by an omnipotent being in the sky, and the entire human race came from two people created by that being" I'd respond with "You have a really skewed view of the world don't you?" Just because some words in the Bible make sense doesn't mean they can be put in a government building. That's promoting a religion.
Also, they aren't based on laws that exist today. Today's laws are based in old laws like the Ten Commandments and the Code of Hammurabi and stuff. How could today's laws be the basis for something that was written thousands of years ago?
Where within them is the govt promoting a specific religious denomination? How by having them posted is the govt enforcing following them? So far, we've learned a lot of history, but no one has indicated how this posting will create a problem.
Are you retarded or just high? If the government engraved the book of Exodus (or really any part of the Bible) all over the walls of a government building, they'd be saying "We hold Christianity in higher regard than other religions, which we chose not to quote in our engraving." It's impossible to represent ALL religions in the world, so therefore they must instead represent NONE of them.
The government isn't enforcing following the Ten Commandments. But they're strongly encouraging people to do so. Not that the world would be a worse place if everyone stopped killing and stealing and cheating on each other. But the fact is they have these prominently displayed in a government building, which is a violation of the separation of church and state.
What if they put a big statue of Jesus on the cross in the building? Would that be promoting a religion? I think it would be. And this is no different. It's a different symbol of Christianity, but it's a symbol nonetheless.
Originally posted by BR
No one has to remove it from public life. It just has to be removed from government.
Unbelieveable.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
I think this country has done a pretty good job of seperating church and state. And what is being done is the christian fundamentalists are trying to inject religion into government...
This isn't about political correctness... it's about one judge's attempt to interject his specific beliefs into the courts while excluding others.
And just because god is mentioned in our nation's founding documents does not mean tthat they intended
to endorse a specific belief system. If anything they purposely intended to say there shall be no specific governemnt endorsed religion and that government would not ban any religion.
And despite what conservatives and fundamentalists want... this country was founded on the idea of inclusion and opportunities for all.
Equally unbelieveable.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Well, the laws of the USA [edit: oops!] are generally based/assumed on Judeo-Christian morality. I realize a lot of people love to hate organized religions, particularly wpredominantly western ones, but the whole separation of church and state isn't about the exclusion or shunning of religion, it's about the guaranteed tolerance and inclusion of all religions. If there's a 10 Commandments sculpture in front of a government building, there should be similar symbols of all religions or religious laws there too. Separation of church and state is to ensure inclusiveness, no special treatment for any one, two or three major religions.
Once, twice, thrice unbelieveable. Let's include everyone! If you represent "all" religions, then you might as well through in Satanic religions, Wahabi muslims, and people that worship those who ahve sex with furniture. Your statement and belief is exactly what is wrong.
Originally posted by SDW2001
Equally unbelieveable.
Yeah, damn, it kinda sucks that the government isn't allowed to squelch religious freedom and just brainwash everyone to believe the same thing, doesn't it?
As far as the problems associated with representing EVERY religion in the world, I addressed them in my post a little ways up. Instead of trying to promote every religion in the world (which is impossible) or promoting only some (which is unfair), the government should just stay out of such matters.
We have laws to ban certain behavior...
and you make the point for us... if the government doesn't officially recognize any one belief system... it can't really exclude any either... it removes itself from the debate.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
Are you retarded or just high? If the government engraved the book of Exodus (or really any part of the Bible) all over the walls of a government building, they'd be saying "We hold Christianity in higher regard than other religions, which we chose not to quote in our engraving." It's impossible to represent ALL religions in the world, so therefore they must instead represent NONE of them.
The government isn't enforcing following the Ten Commandments. But they're strongly encouraging people to do so. Not that the world would be a worse place if everyone stopped killing and stealing and cheating on each other.
What if they put a big statue of Jesus on the cross in the building? Would that be promoting a religion? I think it would be. And this is no different. It's a different symbol of Christianity, but it's a symbol nonetheless.
Thanks for the intelligent character attacks. Really helps drive home a point!
Encouragement and holding things in high regard has no legal basis to be enforced, so that makes it a non-issue. From what I can tell, this is about what is legal.
And putting up a symbol of Jesus would violate that commandment about graven images. I can think of a couple of hypocritical "Christian" religions that do that, and others that don't.
So once again, which denomination is being promoted here?
so that leaves the catholic version or the protestant version...
Alabama...hmmm... I'll have to go with Protestant.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
well it's not in hebrew....
so that leaves the catholic version or the protestant version...
Alabama...hmmm... I'll have to go with Protestant.
Which one, Baptist, Reform, Anabaptist, Seventh-Day Adventist? We are trying to find out religion govt is establishing.
So here's my counter to your argument of "what denomination is it promoting?" - How, exactly, is displaying the Ten Commandments in a government building NOT a way of promoting a religion (that's ANY religion, which denomination does not matter!!!!)?
Originally posted by SDW2001
Let's include everyone! If you represent "all" religions, then you might as well through in Satanic religions, Wahabi muslims, and people that worship those who ahve sex with furniture.
That's the point.
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
Thanks for the intelligent character attacks. Really helps drive home a point!
Encouragement and holding things in high regard has no legal basis to be enforced, so that makes it a non-issue. From what I can tell, this is about what is legal.
And putting up a symbol of Jesus would violate that commandment about graven images. I can think of a couple of hypocritical "Christian" religions that do that, and others that don't.
So once again, which denomination is being promoted here?
The Fed Ruled it to be illegal.
Supremacy Clause.
Judge breaking the law.
Judge should be stripped of his robes (not in public..we don't want to see that).
End of discussion.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
I think Protestant is specific enough... it's already excluding Catholics and Jews. And it's obviously endorsing the Christian faith.
Afraid not. There's a commandement about the sabbath, and a commandment about graven images. These are viewed differently by "Protestants".
So again, which denomination is the govt trying to establish as a religion?
Originally posted by JimDreamworx
Afraid not. There's a commandement about the sabbath, and a commandment about graven images. These are viewed differently by "Protestants".
So again, which denomination is the govt trying to establish as a religion?
Enough of this bullshit. This is one particular flavor of christianity over every other goddamn religion on the planet. Cut it out. Hell, call it AlabamaChiefJusticeWhoIsBreakingTheLawByIgnoringTh eSupremacyClauseIsm for all I care.
As BR said, it's promoting a religion. Because the government is not allowed to promote ANY religion, it doesn't matter WHICH religion is being promoted. Just like if someone commits murder, it doesn't matter if they killed a street bum or the CEO of a large company, they will be punished equally (not necessarily in our flawed legal system, but nothing is perfect, and that's for a different discussion altogether). The murderer can't get up on the witness stand and defend himself by constantly raising questions about the identity of the victim.
I really don't care which religion it's promoting, but it needs to stop. I really don't care who was killed yesterday, but the killer should still be punished.