Actually in Jewish folklore there is stories about people blaiming god and even trying him in the courts.
One of these stories is about a person blaming od for someting and god taking the responsibility and the person forgiving god! The funny part of the story is when next time the person talks with his rabbi the rabbi blaims him for not taking advantage of the situation now that he had god by the balls...
Maybe if they wouldn' support the religious militants God might start to stop the killing (on all sides)
Remember, the Palestinians did recently stop supporting the violence. Instead they supported a cease-fire and all it got them was more missiles from the Israelis.
You express an affinity for Taoism but I wonder if it is the right paradigm for you given what I can deduce of your attitude. The Islamic attitude that 'Allah Akbar' is a symbol of is much closer to a Daoist perspective than you seem to realise. In fact if you replace God with Dao in Islamic metaphysics the two would be virtually identical.
In an Islamic theological sense, nothing can happen that is not the will of God regardless of whether that thing is good or bad. Otherwise, in this view, God would not be God (ie all powerful) and would require another agent to 'blame' for happenings such as you describe. The Devil serves this function in Christianity but it is actually philosophically a non sequtur as the Devil must then have powers that exceed God's - if only in the area of killing humans. Otherwise why wouldn't God stop it ? The Catholic Church has been agonising over this one for millenia but it is not a trap that Islam falls into.
The phrase 'God is great' therefore, is a reiteration of God's omnipotence (often in the face of distress) even though we cannot understand what lies behind His reasoning and though some of his actions from our perspective are apparently 'bad'. But our perspective isn't His and to act like it is is a sin in Islam.
Remember, the Palestinians did recently stop supporting the violence. Instead they supported a cease-fire and all it got them was more missiles from the Israelis.
There was an event intervening Hamas supporting the cease-fire and then getting more missiles from the Israelis.
Are you thinking of the latest Pagels book, or the older "Origins of Satan/Evil" or something like that ??? -- bad memory, long time, too many half reads on the topic -- I saw what looked like a new Pagels in the bookstore the other day; I thought about picking it up, but I let it be.
Even the history of words like demon (IIRC) had a blended sense at one time, so that the archaic Greeks could speak of ??? Daemonium ??? (like I said, bad memory) more in the sense of "spirit guide" than as fallen angel -- which wouldn't have existed for them -- or evil spirit.
If Satan is "the opposer" he works for God, he tests people, like Job, makes a sort of prosecutors case. There is the ill favored Lucifer of genesis to contend with though.
To equate taoism with monotheism simply because the monothiestic notion of Omniscience excludes nothing is discounting the very real differences between the ways the religions are lived and, even deeper, the very different metaphysical attitudes that constitute the two notions when regarding their exoteric manifestations - one of allowing and one of willing dominion-over
CLearly that is the level I am talking about
Tantra, on the contrary is very rational and has a profound philosophical base beneath the flashy paintings and scary icons. Tantric religions are the only religious forms (besides forms of mysticism) that take seriously the energies of the human body which form the foundations of our experience, our 'subjectivities' and the very being of 'mind' . . . the only religious forms that are not founded on the denial of sexuality and the body (besides forms of pre-literate religions and animisms)
and as far as my "opinions about things they know nothing about" --I know about the history of what has been done in the name of 'God,' and I know plenty about all the biggoted attitudes and moralistic posturing that runs completely counter to the what religion is supposedly about . . peace and love?!
Besides I am not merely calling Islam or these poor people missguided . . . I wouldn't be feeling this way if I hadn't suddenly moved to a seriously bible soaked midwestern town . . .
I'm tired of the attitude that says with one side of the mouth 'we can only be 'good' if we believe in god' and then, with the other, casts aspersions at the heathens and infidels, or worse, uses god to justify their killing.
and yes "god bless America" and 'God is on our side"
it all makes me angry
oh yeah . . . and there are other authorities on Gnosticism besides Pagels . . . try Hans Jonas' book 'the Gnostic Religion' -- interesting
Comments
Originally posted by Anders
Actually in Jewish folklore there is stories about people blaiming god and even trying him in the courts.
One of these stories is about a person blaming od for someting and god taking the responsibility and the person forgiving god! The funny part of the story is when next time the person talks with his rabbi the rabbi blaims him for not taking advantage of the situation now that he had god by the balls...
I like the jewish humor.
Originally posted by pfflam
Maybe if they wouldn' support the religious militants God might start to stop the killing (on all sides)
Remember, the Palestinians did recently stop supporting the violence. Instead they supported a cease-fire and all it got them was more missiles from the Israelis.
Originally posted by segovius
Actually this undermines your argument.
You express an affinity for Taoism but I wonder if it is the right paradigm for you given what I can deduce of your attitude. The Islamic attitude that 'Allah Akbar' is a symbol of is much closer to a Daoist perspective than you seem to realise. In fact if you replace God with Dao in Islamic metaphysics the two would be virtually identical.
In an Islamic theological sense, nothing can happen that is not the will of God regardless of whether that thing is good or bad. Otherwise, in this view, God would not be God (ie all powerful) and would require another agent to 'blame' for happenings such as you describe. The Devil serves this function in Christianity but it is actually philosophically a non sequtur as the Devil must then have powers that exceed God's - if only in the area of killing humans. Otherwise why wouldn't God stop it ? The Catholic Church has been agonising over this one for millenia but it is not a trap that Islam falls into.
The phrase 'God is great' therefore, is a reiteration of God's omnipotence (often in the face of distress) even though we cannot understand what lies behind His reasoning and though some of his actions from our perspective are apparently 'bad'. But our perspective isn't His and to act like it is is a sin in Islam.
(Edited coz I'm an idiot.)
Can you write my theology class papers for me?
Originally posted by bunge
Remember, the Palestinians did recently stop supporting the violence. Instead they supported a cease-fire and all it got them was more missiles from the Israelis.
There was an event intervening Hamas supporting the cease-fire and then getting more missiles from the Israelis.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
remember too, that before we blow the bejesus out of someplace, "god bless america", or "we will prevail, with god on our side" is invariably invoked.
I needed to read this because it's hillarious. Thank you superkarate!
Even the history of words like demon (IIRC) had a blended sense at one time, so that the archaic Greeks could speak of ??? Daemonium ??? (like I said, bad memory) more in the sense of "spirit guide" than as fallen angel -- which wouldn't have existed for them -- or evil spirit.
If Satan is "the opposer" he works for God, he tests people, like Job, makes a sort of prosecutors case. There is the ill favored Lucifer of genesis to contend with though.
Originally posted by segovius
To equate taoism with monotheism simply because the monothiestic notion of Omniscience excludes nothing is discounting the very real differences between the ways the religions are lived and, even deeper, the very different metaphysical attitudes that constitute the two notions when regarding their exoteric manifestations - one of allowing and one of willing dominion-over
CLearly that is the level I am talking about
Tantra, on the contrary is very rational and has a profound philosophical base beneath the flashy paintings and scary icons. Tantric religions are the only religious forms (besides forms of mysticism) that take seriously the energies of the human body which form the foundations of our experience, our 'subjectivities' and the very being of 'mind' . . . the only religious forms that are not founded on the denial of sexuality and the body (besides forms of pre-literate religions and animisms)
and as far as my "opinions about things they know nothing about" --I know about the history of what has been done in the name of 'God,' and I know plenty about all the biggoted attitudes and moralistic posturing that runs completely counter to the what religion is supposedly about . . peace and love?!
Besides I am not merely calling Islam or these poor people missguided . . . I wouldn't be feeling this way if I hadn't suddenly moved to a seriously bible soaked midwestern town . . .
I'm tired of the attitude that says with one side of the mouth 'we can only be 'good' if we believe in god' and then, with the other, casts aspersions at the heathens and infidels, or worse, uses god to justify their killing.
and yes "god bless America" and 'God is on our side"
it all makes me angry
oh yeah . . . and there are other authorities on Gnosticism besides Pagels . . . try Hans Jonas' book 'the Gnostic Religion' -- interesting