Well, yes. You should start moaning. You have no future. It frustrates me further to see companies offering 80K+ exclusively to people with H1B visas, rather than looking at qualifications.
sorry about this ongoing rant fellas...offtopic i know...
but im compelled to answer.
juke..take a good look at the people who make 80-100k+
all the guys i worked with were either graduates of IIT &/or had masters or phds from princeton or mit or caltech
they deserved every penny...they were truely creative.
you may be the greatest coder on this planet..however
you still havent answered my original question.
what kind of work do you do
learning doesnt cost an arm & a leg. you can easily teach
yourself new technologies.all it takes is a strong desire to learn.
if you want to continue this conversation then lets start
another thread. I dont want us to ruin someone elses topic.
sorry about this ongoing rant fellas...offtopic i know...
but im compelled to answer.
juke..take a good look at the people who make 80-100k+
all the guys i worked with were either graduates of IIT &/or had masters or phds from princeton or mit or caltech
they deserved every penny...they were truely creative.
you may be the greatest coder on this planet..however
you still havent answered my original question.
what kind of work do you do
learning doesnt cost an arm & a leg. you can easily teach
yourself new technologies.all it takes is a strong desire to learn.
if you want to continue this conversation then lets start
another thread. I dont want us to ruin someone elses topic.
MAXX you'll learn when eventually you cost too much compared to the next round of immigrants. Not knockin' you or anything
Juke: You have the right idea, Get the hell out of the employee world and get self employed ASAP. The wqay Bush and co. is killing employment in the US only the self-employed will survive ( exagerated somewhat..but true)
MAXX you'll learn when eventually you cost too much compared to the next round of immigrants. Not knockin' you or anything
Juke: You have the right idea, Get the hell out of the employee world and get self employed ASAP. The wqay Bush and co. is killing employment in the US only the self-employed will survive ( exagerated somewhat..but true)
Oh God! Not another it's Bush's fault post! Get over it. You have to take control of your own life and stop blaming other people for your probs! The world is shrinking, and we can't errect barriers for trade and labor.
By the way, if you are self-employed, you should be glad that Bush & co. is at the helm. You won't find a better friend to the small business person. Good luck!
I was upset not to get a raise this year until I called my previous employer and found out that the developers still there have taken a 7% pay cut and given up all of their hollidays to stay employed. They're doing another 30% layoff by the end of the year. It frustrates me further to see companies offering 80K+ exclusively to people with H1B visas, rather than looking at qualifications.
I haven't, until now, heard of H1B visas and i i know nothing of the US IT workplace. However, I believe I know somewhat of the ways of Global Corparativism. Outsourcing and cheap immigrant labour are less to blame for any lack of employment in the circumstances you describe - rather it is the eternal embrace of maximum profit-minimum cost, at any cost, of giant compaines that is to blame.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I can be the greatest developer in the world and I'm not elligeable for the position because someone's greasing the politicians.
I don't know who else you think could be greasing the politicians...
sorry about this ongoing rant fellas...offtopic i know...
but im compelled to answer.
juke..take a good look at the people who make 80-100k+
all the guys i worked with were either graduates of IIT &/or had masters or phds from princeton or mit or caltech
they deserved every penny...they were truely creative.
you may be the greatest coder on this planet..however
you still havent answered my original question.
what kind of work do you do
learning doesnt cost an arm & a leg. you can easily teach
yourself new technologies.all it takes is a strong desire to learn.
if you want to continue this conversation then lets start
another thread. I dont want us to ruin someone elses topic.
maxmax,
i am a US citizen, 4th generation or longer. I have worked in Silicon Valley during the 80's, 90's. I have worked with many brilliant engineers and business people, mostly from Asia or India, some from Europe. I believe the net effect has been very positive and glad to have you living here and congrats on becoming a citizen.
it is very difficult and troubling at the rate of 'offshoring" and this is a trend that is going to be difficult to compete with based on cost of living here versus someplace like India for example where its a lot less. manufacturing is gone and IT is going. right now, its lower level IT but its moving up the scale. on a macro level, certain third world places are moving up while we are struggling to keep where we are but lots of downward pressure. there is no need now to hire H1-B people. This was a need derived out of the the 1995-2001 era but that is over. So, there is frustration, not at you mind you (see above), but by this double whammy of hiring H1-B in a down economy for a percieved lower cost cutting effort while oursourcing for the same reason. its very difficult but as i said i have worked with many people from all over the world in university and in the industry, made many friends.
The main reason I'd be reluctant to buy a G5 is PCI Express given that it promises to completely replace several existing technologies for expansion. It should appear early next year so if you're willing to wait 3 - 6 months I'd say that'd be a good reason.
The real question is if Apple revises the towers early next year will they add PCI express then or will they wait until closer to the middle of the year.
Oh God! Not another it's Bush's fault post! Get over it. You have to take control of your own life and stop blaming other people for your probs! The world is shrinking, and we can't errect barriers for trade and labor.
By the way, if you are self-employed, you should be glad that Bush & co. is at the helm. You won't find a better friend to the small business person. Good luck!
I'm self employed because I see the economic train wreck about to happen to the portion of the middle class dependent on paychecks. I know many other people who see the writing on the wall too. But the reality is that most people will never be self employed...wait till those Boomers retire...it's not going to be pretty.
I'm self employed because I see the economic train wreck about to happen to the portion of the middle class dependent on paychecks. I know many other people who see the writing on the wall too. But the reality is that most people will never be self employed...wait till those Boomers retire...it's not going to be pretty.
You're scaring me. This is all things I know to be true but I'm worried I won't be financially stable enough to be self employed in time for the eminent financial collapse.
The stories are everywhere. Companies are cutting employees because they have an excuse to do so. They've found ways to increase productivity and cut work-force, thats great! I'm all for getting rid of the dead weight. But when THOUSANDS of companies do it at the same time under the guise of "staying profitable", it becomes a major problem. Many of the companies doing the cutting are making more profit than ever. Whats more, these same companies are producing MORE goods than they were before the recession. (Think DEFLATION, the worst disaster any economy can suffer)... Now Add to this the fact that manufacturing is offshored, and now ANY INTELLECTUAL PRODUCT can be simply offshored.
Ironically, its because of the internet and all the wonderful technology that our IT industry has created... Remember bragging to your boss, two years ago, that you can just work from home now, thanks to the internet? Who knew back then that it meant corporations would just cut us and replace us with a foreign worker at less than 1/3 the pay.
Also, why go to College if all it does is teach you how to produce INTELECTUAL PRODUCTS??? Plumbers now make more than Engineers and IT people (unless of course your on the coveted H1B visa).
Here's the million dollar question: These companies make products that sell primarily to developed nations. Who's going to buy all these products if we're all out of work? CEOs and execs are cutting off the nose despite the face!!!! They're either completely retarded or completely motivated by greed if they can't see that! If every company does this (and it sure appears that they all are), they will also have to lower the cost of their goods in order to sell them to the people that are employed (remember, they are making 1/3rd the money!!!)....
We're screwed. I'm moving to Japan... They refuse to buy foreign goods in Japan.
i havent recieved a raise since 2000 either & im not blaming anyone else
for it & i live in san diego which is really expensive.
curiously even in this economy i still get calls daily
from recruiters willing to hire.
good engineers will always be in demand. the only ones i hear complaining are those that jumped into computing on the dot com bandwagon & are stuck doing web or vb stuff.
i also asked what your skillsets were & you mentioned what you
would like to do instead of giving specifics on stuff you have done.
umm ranting about what you can do & what you have done ist likely
to win you another job. theres still a lot of jobs there you just need to look harder & be more positive
feel free to move to japan by all means.the cost of living will kill you
if you have a grouse against india then try to work there or even better try to get admitted to IIT.
trolling & moaning about this issue isnt gonna help you
You're scaring me. This is all things I know to be true but I'm worried I won't be financially stable enough to be self employed in time for the eminent financial collapse.
The stories are everywhere. Companies are cutting employees because they have an excuse to do so. They've found ways to increase productivity and cut work-force, thats great! ..............
We're screwed. I'm moving to Japan... They refuse to buy foreign goods in Japan.
Interesting to note your comment about companies making huge profits but still cut back on operating expenses. They must!!! Wall Street would not allow it otherwise. The investment bankers and their analysts now look at quarterly figures with a magnifying glass like they did annual reports a decade ago. So you have Wall Street pushing short term, which pushes senior management to be short terms, which pushes the companies to be short term, and so on and so forth. We are in a fundamental structural problem here, no simple solution.
Just like all this trash talk in Congress about how the Chinese currency is over-valued and hence has stolen jobs from the US manufacturing sector. Who is kidding whom? How many Americans are doing the low cost cheap labor jobs thats first moved to Mexico and then to Asia, principally China nowadays. Making the notebook computer is a job that has gone to Asia for a decade now.
So Bush demands China up its currency vlaue by 35%- fine, that would be notebooks, PBs included would go up in price in the US- TOO THE US CONSUMER by at least 25%. Are those jobs coming back to the US? No. But everything you buy in Walmart will go up at least 10 to 20% in price. Is that what congress wants? How politicians also forgo long term strategic view for short term gains- like the election next year.
So you have Wall Street seeking short term, Corporate CEOs seeking short term and politicians seeking short term............... where does it all go?
Interesting to note your comment about companies making huge profits but still cut back on operating expenses. They must!!! Wall Street would not allow it otherwise.
So you have Wall Street seeking short term, Corporate CEOs seeking short term and politicians seeking short term............... where does it all go?
Exactly. It used to be that a CEO had a long term interest in the company. But now the CEO has become such a valuable position that we trade them like superstars. So now the investors and decision makers don't have a vested interest in the long term viability of the company...
The current mindset is that a company serves only its owners (ie investors). Employees are only a commodity to serve that purpose. What we all must realize is that the primary purpose of a company must be, for the health of the economy, to serve its employees (including its owners of course). Until this mindset changes, were in deep sh*t.
Ok... well what was the question, Reasons I would NOT buy a G5? Because I don't need one? Currently I'm running a Dual 533MHz Digital Audio. Soon I will be purchasing a slew of upgrades; WD Raptor, Radeon 9800, and most likely a CPU upgrade. Promised myself back when I purchased this rig that it would last until something truly compelling came around. Other then the FSB and quietness of the G5 I don't see it offering me anything spectacular. Could care less about bitness, how it looks, how many ports it has.
But the upgrades I'm purchasing now can be transfers to a G5 if the need arises. Just about everything except the G4 upgrade card. On future revs I'd like to see more PCI ports, a bit more with internal space. Hopefully when they shrink the process they might give a little in that area.
i havent recieved a raise since 2000 either & im not blaming anyone else
for it & i live in san diego which is really expensive.
curiously even in this economy i still get calls daily
from recruiters willing to hire.
good engineers will always be in demand.
regards,
pete
I have nothing against a person taking advantage of what offers are available to them. So I certainly don't mean this as an attack on you, Pete. Welcome to the country and I hope you don't learn to despise it like we do I'm harping on H1b because I wasn't eligeable for a better position in my company because I wasn't on an H1b visa. It just adds insult to injury since theres not lots of companies hiring and LOTS of people looking.
I moved here in 2001. Since moving I haven't been able to prove my value as an engineer because the entire IT structure is in such a state of turmoil that nobody cares that I'm a good engineer. I'm not complaining for my sake. Like I said, I have a job.
You keep trying to turn this around. Its human nature to try and say the people loosing their jobs must somehow deserve it. That way you feel safe in your position. Its worrysome to think that you could be out of work through no fault of your own, I know... But I remember doing the same sort of justifying when manufacturing went overseas. "American auto workers are lazy. They're stupid. They want too much money." Funny how we justify buying the cheaper foreign goods when we stand to benefit. But now I see the CEOs saying the same thing about American developers. Makes me realize that maybe the UAW really did have a point back in the 80's and 90's... My buddy is an accountant and he says the same problem is beginning to affect him. Companies are shipping their accounting departments overseas to save money. So all American accountants are lazy too?
Comments
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Well, yes. You should start moaning. You have no future. It frustrates me further to see companies offering 80K+ exclusively to people with H1B visas, rather than looking at qualifications.
sorry about this ongoing rant fellas...offtopic i know...
but im compelled to answer.
juke..take a good look at the people who make 80-100k+
all the guys i worked with were either graduates of IIT &/or had masters or phds from princeton or mit or caltech
they deserved every penny...they were truely creative.
you may be the greatest coder on this planet..however
you still havent answered my original question.
what kind of work do you do
learning doesnt cost an arm & a leg. you can easily teach
yourself new technologies.all it takes is a strong desire to learn.
if you want to continue this conversation then lets start
another thread. I dont want us to ruin someone elses topic.
Originally posted by madmax559
sorry about this ongoing rant fellas...offtopic i know...
but im compelled to answer.
juke..take a good look at the people who make 80-100k+
all the guys i worked with were either graduates of IIT &/or had masters or phds from princeton or mit or caltech
they deserved every penny...they were truely creative.
you may be the greatest coder on this planet..however
you still havent answered my original question.
what kind of work do you do
learning doesnt cost an arm & a leg. you can easily teach
yourself new technologies.all it takes is a strong desire to learn.
if you want to continue this conversation then lets start
another thread. I dont want us to ruin someone elses topic.
MAXX you'll learn when eventually you cost too much compared to the next round of immigrants. Not knockin' you or anything
Juke: You have the right idea, Get the hell out of the employee world and get self employed ASAP. The wqay Bush and co. is killing employment in the US only the self-employed will survive ( exagerated somewhat..but true)
Originally posted by Sondjata
MAXX you'll learn when eventually you cost too much compared to the next round of immigrants. Not knockin' you or anything
Juke: You have the right idea, Get the hell out of the employee world and get self employed ASAP. The wqay Bush and co. is killing employment in the US only the self-employed will survive ( exagerated somewhat..but true)
Oh God! Not another it's Bush's fault post! Get over it. You have to take control of your own life and stop blaming other people for your probs! The world is shrinking, and we can't errect barriers for trade and labor.
By the way, if you are self-employed, you should be glad that Bush & co. is at the helm. You won't find a better friend to the small business person. Good luck!
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I was upset not to get a raise this year until I called my previous employer and found out that the developers still there have taken a 7% pay cut and given up all of their hollidays to stay employed. They're doing another 30% layoff by the end of the year. It frustrates me further to see companies offering 80K+ exclusively to people with H1B visas, rather than looking at qualifications.
I haven't, until now, heard of H1B visas and i i know nothing of the US IT workplace. However, I believe I know somewhat of the ways of Global Corparativism. Outsourcing and cheap immigrant labour are less to blame for any lack of employment in the circumstances you describe - rather it is the eternal embrace of maximum profit-minimum cost, at any cost, of giant compaines that is to blame.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I can be the greatest developer in the world and I'm not elligeable for the position because someone's greasing the politicians.
I don't know who else you think could be greasing the politicians...
Plus, I'm waiting for the Dual 3G G5 just like I waited until Apple could hit the 1Ghz barrier, which took FOREVER!
Originally posted by madmax559
sorry about this ongoing rant fellas...offtopic i know...
but im compelled to answer.
juke..take a good look at the people who make 80-100k+
all the guys i worked with were either graduates of IIT &/or had masters or phds from princeton or mit or caltech
they deserved every penny...they were truely creative.
you may be the greatest coder on this planet..however
you still havent answered my original question.
what kind of work do you do
learning doesnt cost an arm & a leg. you can easily teach
yourself new technologies.all it takes is a strong desire to learn.
if you want to continue this conversation then lets start
another thread. I dont want us to ruin someone elses topic.
maxmax,
i am a US citizen, 4th generation or longer. I have worked in Silicon Valley during the 80's, 90's. I have worked with many brilliant engineers and business people, mostly from Asia or India, some from Europe. I believe the net effect has been very positive and glad to have you living here and congrats on becoming a citizen.
it is very difficult and troubling at the rate of 'offshoring" and this is a trend that is going to be difficult to compete with based on cost of living here versus someplace like India for example where its a lot less. manufacturing is gone and IT is going. right now, its lower level IT but its moving up the scale. on a macro level, certain third world places are moving up while we are struggling to keep where we are but lots of downward pressure. there is no need now to hire H1-B people. This was a need derived out of the the 1995-2001 era but that is over. So, there is frustration, not at you mind you (see above), but by this double whammy of hiring H1-B in a down economy for a percieved lower cost cutting effort while oursourcing for the same reason. its very difficult but as i said i have worked with many people from all over the world in university and in the industry, made many friends.
good luck on getting your US citizenship!!
The real question is if Apple revises the towers early next year will they add PCI express then or will they wait until closer to the middle of the year.
Originally posted by Beakee
Oh God! Not another it's Bush's fault post! Get over it. You have to take control of your own life and stop blaming other people for your probs! The world is shrinking, and we can't errect barriers for trade and labor.
By the way, if you are self-employed, you should be glad that Bush & co. is at the helm. You won't find a better friend to the small business person. Good luck!
I'm self employed because I see the economic train wreck about to happen to the portion of the middle class dependent on paychecks. I know many other people who see the writing on the wall too. But the reality is that most people will never be self employed...wait till those Boomers retire...it's not going to be pretty.
I am against outsourcing to anywhere. The h1b program is being cut down which seems reasonable but heres the
most short sighted thing that is happening.
people keep saying throw the h1's out...i say no
in fact naturalize them immediately
heres a few facts people may not be aware of
as a h1b a person
1.pays all the state & federal taxes just like a citizen
2.pays medicare & social security even though they are not
entitled to paticipate in those programs
3.may not be eligible for unemployment even though they
contribute a significant amt to the economy
look instead of pulling crap like giving drivers licenses
& citizenships to illegals why not ddo the same for those
who are legally here for so many years.
you throw out or force out our brainpower & they will
go elsewhere with all the knowhow
we lead because we have the knowhow, we lose our technical
edge & we are toast as a leading nation.
what happens when nations refuse to buy from us or sell
to us beacuse they dont like our policies.how long do you think we would last going it alone.
Originally posted by iPeon
I'm not buying for one reason and one reason only, I don't have the funds for it just yet.
Dual 2Gig with a 23" display + RAM. Lota $$$. But that's what I want. Nothing can touch that.
You might consider buying the essentials (G5, display) now, and adding on RAM later. Plus, 3rd party RAM is cheaper.
As for a reason to NOT buy a G5...it doesn't instantly make you rich and famous, or at least not the former of the two.
Right now, I'm the "first kid on my block" to have a G5, and throngs of people wait outside my room, waiting to be admitted...
Originally posted by Sondjata
I'm self employed because I see the economic train wreck about to happen to the portion of the middle class dependent on paychecks. I know many other people who see the writing on the wall too. But the reality is that most people will never be self employed...wait till those Boomers retire...it's not going to be pretty.
You're scaring me. This is all things I know to be true but I'm worried I won't be financially stable enough to be self employed in time for the eminent financial collapse.
The stories are everywhere. Companies are cutting employees because they have an excuse to do so. They've found ways to increase productivity and cut work-force, thats great! I'm all for getting rid of the dead weight. But when THOUSANDS of companies do it at the same time under the guise of "staying profitable", it becomes a major problem. Many of the companies doing the cutting are making more profit than ever. Whats more, these same companies are producing MORE goods than they were before the recession. (Think DEFLATION, the worst disaster any economy can suffer)... Now Add to this the fact that manufacturing is offshored, and now ANY INTELLECTUAL PRODUCT can be simply offshored.
Ironically, its because of the internet and all the wonderful technology that our IT industry has created... Remember bragging to your boss, two years ago, that you can just work from home now, thanks to the internet? Who knew back then that it meant corporations would just cut us and replace us with a foreign worker at less than 1/3 the pay.
Also, why go to College if all it does is teach you how to produce INTELECTUAL PRODUCTS??? Plumbers now make more than Engineers and IT people (unless of course your on the coveted H1B visa).
Here's the million dollar question: These companies make products that sell primarily to developed nations. Who's going to buy all these products if we're all out of work? CEOs and execs are cutting off the nose despite the face!!!! They're either completely retarded or completely motivated by greed if they can't see that! If every company does this (and it sure appears that they all are), they will also have to lower the cost of their goods in order to sell them to the people that are employed (remember, they are making 1/3rd the money!!!)....
We're screwed. I'm moving to Japan... They refuse to buy foreign goods in Japan.
you keep harping on the H1b issue
i havent recieved a raise since 2000 either & im not blaming anyone else
for it & i live in san diego which is really expensive.
curiously even in this economy i still get calls daily
from recruiters willing to hire.
good engineers will always be in demand. the only ones i hear complaining are those that jumped into computing on the dot com bandwagon & are stuck doing web or vb stuff.
i also asked what your skillsets were & you mentioned what you
would like to do instead of giving specifics on stuff you have done.
umm ranting about what you can do & what you have done ist likely
to win you another job. theres still a lot of jobs there you just need to look harder & be more positive
feel free to move to japan by all means.the cost of living will kill you
if you have a grouse against india then try to work there or even better try to get admitted to IIT.
trolling & moaning about this issue isnt gonna help you
regards,
pete
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
You're scaring me. This is all things I know to be true but I'm worried I won't be financially stable enough to be self employed in time for the eminent financial collapse.
The stories are everywhere. Companies are cutting employees because they have an excuse to do so. They've found ways to increase productivity and cut work-force, thats great! ..............
We're screwed. I'm moving to Japan... They refuse to buy foreign goods in Japan.
Interesting to note your comment about companies making huge profits but still cut back on operating expenses. They must!!! Wall Street would not allow it otherwise. The investment bankers and their analysts now look at quarterly figures with a magnifying glass like they did annual reports a decade ago. So you have Wall Street pushing short term, which pushes senior management to be short terms, which pushes the companies to be short term, and so on and so forth. We are in a fundamental structural problem here, no simple solution.
Just like all this trash talk in Congress about how the Chinese currency is over-valued and hence has stolen jobs from the US manufacturing sector. Who is kidding whom? How many Americans are doing the low cost cheap labor jobs thats first moved to Mexico and then to Asia, principally China nowadays. Making the notebook computer is a job that has gone to Asia for a decade now.
So Bush demands China up its currency vlaue by 35%- fine, that would be notebooks, PBs included would go up in price in the US- TOO THE US CONSUMER by at least 25%. Are those jobs coming back to the US? No. But everything you buy in Walmart will go up at least 10 to 20% in price. Is that what congress wants? How politicians also forgo long term strategic view for short term gains- like the election next year.
So you have Wall Street seeking short term, Corporate CEOs seeking short term and politicians seeking short term............... where does it all go?
Originally posted by BJer
Interesting to note your comment about companies making huge profits but still cut back on operating expenses. They must!!! Wall Street would not allow it otherwise.
So you have Wall Street seeking short term, Corporate CEOs seeking short term and politicians seeking short term............... where does it all go?
Exactly. It used to be that a CEO had a long term interest in the company. But now the CEO has become such a valuable position that we trade them like superstars. So now the investors and decision makers don't have a vested interest in the long term viability of the company...
The current mindset is that a company serves only its owners (ie investors). Employees are only a commodity to serve that purpose. What we all must realize is that the primary purpose of a company must be, for the health of the economy, to serve its employees (including its owners of course). Until this mindset changes, were in deep sh*t.
Ok... well what was the question, Reasons I would NOT buy a G5? Because I don't need one? Currently I'm running a Dual 533MHz Digital Audio. Soon I will be purchasing a slew of upgrades; WD Raptor, Radeon 9800, and most likely a CPU upgrade. Promised myself back when I purchased this rig that it would last until something truly compelling came around. Other then the FSB and quietness of the G5 I don't see it offering me anything spectacular. Could care less about bitness, how it looks, how many ports it has.
But the upgrades I'm purchasing now can be transfers to a G5 if the need arises. Just about everything except the G4 upgrade card. On future revs I'd like to see more PCI ports, a bit more with internal space. Hopefully when they shrink the process they might give a little in that area.
Originally posted by madmax559
juke....
you keep harping on the H1b issue
i havent recieved a raise since 2000 either & im not blaming anyone else
for it & i live in san diego which is really expensive.
curiously even in this economy i still get calls daily
from recruiters willing to hire.
good engineers will always be in demand.
regards,
pete
I have nothing against a person taking advantage of what offers are available to them. So I certainly don't mean this as an attack on you, Pete. Welcome to the country and I hope you don't learn to despise it like we do
I moved here in 2001. Since moving I haven't been able to prove my value as an engineer because the entire IT structure is in such a state of turmoil that nobody cares that I'm a good engineer. I'm not complaining for my sake. Like I said, I have a job.
You keep trying to turn this around. Its human nature to try and say the people loosing their jobs must somehow deserve it. That way you feel safe in your position. Its worrysome to think that you could be out of work through no fault of your own, I know... But I remember doing the same sort of justifying when manufacturing went overseas. "American auto workers are lazy. They're stupid. They want too much money." Funny how we justify buying the cheaper foreign goods when we stand to benefit. But now I see the CEOs saying the same thing about American developers. Makes me realize that maybe the UAW really did have a point back in the 80's and 90's... My buddy is an accountant and he says the same problem is beginning to affect him. Companies are shipping their accounting departments overseas to save money. So all American accountants are lazy too?