Ousted Iraqi president Saddam Hussein has been in secret negotiations with US forces in Iraq for the past nine days, a British tabloid newspaper claimed Sunday. According to the Sunday Mirror report...
I'm trying to figure out what's less legitimate as a news source in this context: an Arab publication quoting a British tabloid, or the tabloid itself. May Allah and Jesus have mercy on us. We need it.
BR - can only speak for myself here but I have no party allegiance, never voted, never will and don't accept that that deprives me of a right to an opinion- which in this case is this: that if you look at the facts (and I mean facts - let's not bring in any other assertions for now) then it is a reasonable supposition that Saddam and Obl are 'on the payroll' (and no, I don't mean they have a green card and healthcare benefits).
It all hinges on what you understand by 'support' or 'payroll'. Sure the US supported Saddam. Sure, they are still supporting him (and Obl) now - just in a different sense - both Saddam and Obl want to avoid capture (I'm sure you agree) and Bush isn't interested in capturing them (for reasons we can only conjecture) and seems to be actively avoiding doing so. That is ipso facto supporting them still.
The unpalatable fact is that if the US gave 110% to catching these two and putting them on trial then it could have happened on numerous occassions over the last years. Fact is, they ain't trying. One can speculate as to why they are not trying but no-one really knows so there we'd divert from facts.
No-one (not even Scott, well ok, maybe Scott) can sincerely believe that catching either of these two characters is even on the agenda when they survewy the evidence. It's not even like they give the appearance of trying and can justify failure by their usual ineptitude.
I must be a really stupid guy, but i believe that they try to catch them.
US admin is a giant octopuss made by thousands of people working in it. There is no chance that you can give this type of order (do not really try to find OBL and Saddam, just simulate it) and that no one of this people denounce it . I think that giving this type of order is the best way to be fired from the oval office. It's more simple to hire some killer to kill somebody, than to tell a whole administration to not make his job.
I am not ready to fall in the conspiracy paranoia.
Don't know much about conspiracy paranoia but surely it doesn't come down to that anyway. Yes, there is an octopus but it doesn't mean you'd have to give an order to 'not find OBL' - all it would take would be one person to NOT issue a specific order to hit a specific target at a specific time. That's all it needs and no-one any the wiser.
AND it also doesn't 'prove' the rationale behind such a lack of action. there may be many -
1) a high ranking mole or undiscovered 'double agent'
2) a conscious policy not to make a martyr
3) they may know where they are and be containing them till a more advantageous time to take them out.
[/B]
1) a high ranking mole or a un undiscovered double agent is not sufficiant to hide this type of secrets. Nearly all the secret agencies of the occidental world (and perhaps more) are hunting OBL. It's difficult to mislead all of them simultaneously
2) a conscious policy not to make a martyr. OBL is for sure a martyr for many radical islamists, but killing him or catch him won't change the opinion of billions of people. For Saddam the case is even simplier, excepting his family and the Baathist, he has no supporters even in the muslim world.
3) why not, but in this case it should arrive just before the next election, and it's a dangerous game, because if you can catch him today, you are not sure you will be able to catch it tomorrow.
Now here are my counterarguments :
The popularity of Bush will raise immediatly if both of these guy where caught. And i think the popularity of Bush is more important for US admin than the peace in Afghanistan.
There is a great reward for any people who will caught Saddam or OBL. If someone have the info, do you think that US will pay millions of dollars in order to have the silence ?
Do you think that the base US soldier will be able to understand that he musn't caught Saddam or OBL if he see him ? Do you think that the US officer who have a friend or one of his family member killed in the Pentagone's attack should shut up just for the interest of Bush , or will he turn crazy and speak ?
Remember the US is a democratia filled with people who love their imdependance and cheers individualism.
The Secret agents are sure pragmatic, but not a whole nation. Futhermore i don't see where is the pragmatism, here.
Comments
Ousted Iraqi president Saddam Hussein has been in secret negotiations with US forces in Iraq for the past nine days, a British tabloid newspaper claimed Sunday. According to the Sunday Mirror report...
I'm trying to figure out what's less legitimate as a news source in this context: an Arab publication quoting a British tabloid, or the tabloid itself. May Allah and Jesus have mercy on us. We need it.
Originally posted by segovius
BR - can only speak for myself here but I have no party allegiance, never voted, never will and don't accept that that deprives me of a right to an opinion- which in this case is this: that if you look at the facts (and I mean facts - let's not bring in any other assertions for now) then it is a reasonable supposition that Saddam and Obl are 'on the payroll' (and no, I don't mean they have a green card and healthcare benefits).
It all hinges on what you understand by 'support' or 'payroll'. Sure the US supported Saddam. Sure, they are still supporting him (and Obl) now - just in a different sense - both Saddam and Obl want to avoid capture (I'm sure you agree) and Bush isn't interested in capturing them (for reasons we can only conjecture) and seems to be actively avoiding doing so. That is ipso facto supporting them still.
The unpalatable fact is that if the US gave 110% to catching these two and putting them on trial then it could have happened on numerous occassions over the last years. Fact is, they ain't trying. One can speculate as to why they are not trying but no-one really knows so there we'd divert from facts.
No-one (not even Scott, well ok, maybe Scott) can sincerely believe that catching either of these two characters is even on the agenda when they survewy the evidence. It's not even like they give the appearance of trying and can justify failure by their usual ineptitude.
I must be a really stupid guy, but i believe that they try to catch them.
US admin is a giant octopuss made by thousands of people working in it. There is no chance that you can give this type of order (do not really try to find OBL and Saddam, just simulate it) and that no one of this people denounce it . I think that giving this type of order is the best way to be fired from the oval office. It's more simple to hire some killer to kill somebody, than to tell a whole administration to not make his job.
I am not ready to fall in the conspiracy paranoia.
Originally posted by segovius
[B
Don't know much about conspiracy paranoia but surely it doesn't come down to that anyway. Yes, there is an octopus but it doesn't mean you'd have to give an order to 'not find OBL' - all it would take would be one person to NOT issue a specific order to hit a specific target at a specific time. That's all it needs and no-one any the wiser.
AND it also doesn't 'prove' the rationale behind such a lack of action. there may be many -
1) a high ranking mole or undiscovered 'double agent'
2) a conscious policy not to make a martyr
3) they may know where they are and be containing them till a more advantageous time to take them out.
[/B]
1) a high ranking mole or a un undiscovered double agent is not sufficiant to hide this type of secrets. Nearly all the secret agencies of the occidental world (and perhaps more) are hunting OBL. It's difficult to mislead all of them simultaneously
2) a conscious policy not to make a martyr. OBL is for sure a martyr for many radical islamists, but killing him or catch him won't change the opinion of billions of people. For Saddam the case is even simplier, excepting his family and the Baathist, he has no supporters even in the muslim world.
3) why not, but in this case it should arrive just before the next election, and it's a dangerous game, because if you can catch him today, you are not sure you will be able to catch it tomorrow.
Now here are my counterarguments :
The popularity of Bush will raise immediatly if both of these guy where caught. And i think the popularity of Bush is more important for US admin than the peace in Afghanistan.
There is a great reward for any people who will caught Saddam or OBL. If someone have the info, do you think that US will pay millions of dollars in order to have the silence ?
Do you think that the base US soldier will be able to understand that he musn't caught Saddam or OBL if he see him ? Do you think that the US officer who have a friend or one of his family member killed in the Pentagone's attack should shut up just for the interest of Bush , or will he turn crazy and speak ?
Remember the US is a democratia filled with people who love their imdependance and cheers individualism.
The Secret agents are sure pragmatic, but not a whole nation. Futhermore i don't see where is the pragmatism, here.