[QUOTE]They are at war - they don't have a uniformed army but I think you'll find that if they were allowed to then they would use it to attack Israel.
They say they are at war - maybe a guerilla war but that's war in my book. Call it what you like - they're killing each other.[quote]
So if they're at war with Isreal and they are bombing civilian areas, what makes it so wrong for Isreal to respond similarly? Why do morals have to bother one group when they so obviously don't bother the other side?
Yes they are killing each other. And it's the saddest thing in the world, something that should never happen.
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The US kill innocent women and children - wanna see some pics of that little boy Ali with no arms and legs ? Or the dead kids and 55 civilians strewn over Abu Taleb market ? Maybe they're not innocent in your view. Maybe it didn't happen in your view. Wouldn't surprise me.
This is what happens when people start bombing cities. However, I don't think it's fair to point out that civilians are getting hurt when their own people endanger them by running millitary operations from peoples houses in heavily populated areas. That's like getting in a fight and pulling your friend in front of you to take the first punch...
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I say they are legitimate targets if they are sneaking round in the Gaza or the Occupied territories.
Israeli is killing kids - Palestinians are killing Israelis. Like I always say, depends whose side you're on. Don't try to take the moral high ground - at least do what the Israelis do and say 'yeah we killed Palestinians - so what ?'. This I can respect, let's you know who and what you're dealing with but spare us the sanctimonious BS. It's a war. People are killing each other.
Good Point. It's hard to take the high ground when people are being killed on all sides. Also realize exactly what each side is really looking for though.
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Seriously for a minute - I have no perticular axe to grind against the US but if they continue to unevenly and unconditionally support Israel then US operatives on the ground are legitimate targets by definition.
Turn it round - if another country not yet involved in Iraq (say) sends in operatives that are 100% behind al Qaeda (say) both you and I know they would be legitimate targets.
The main issue here is that Palestinians agreed not to attack US targets in the area so that they may work out a peace process. This process, which will never suceed as long as Arafat is in office, has failed several times due to people being unable to just stop killing people.
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The US needs to start leading the world in some justice - that's the only thing that can save her now. Two weeks ago Israel bombed civilians outside Damascus. Bush supported it. Any other country sent bombers to another country and killed civilians and it would be an act of war. That's hypocrisy and that's also the cause of terrorism because if people can't look to America for justice where can they look ? They should look to America and they should get justice from America - they don't, so they take the law into their own hands. You'd do the same. Except in this case you call them terrorists - but because you're on the other side. No tother reason.
Fair enough - but just tell it like it is. [/B]
If people (from this area of the world) looked to the US for justice there never would have been a 9/11 bombing. The fact of the matter is that simply by being allies with Isreal makes the US their enemy. That is the only reason. If they want peace, then they need to stick to the treaties they sign. You can't praise a cease fire and then get on the phone and order up bombings. You can't claim to want peace and then claim on TV throughout the area that you will drive your enemy into the sea.
Anyone happen to catch the interview the BBC did with Terrorist Arafat? Jew Killer Afafat tried to deny that Palestinians were even involved. The BBC interviews with sundry Palestinians terrorist and their supporters is always then same. If you listen enough times you hear the same thing over and over.
BBC: Today three Israeli children were killed on a bus by a bomber. One as young as 18 months. Do you feel targeting civilians in this way is proper and supports your cause.
Palestinian terrorist or their supporter: Ask the Israelis that. Each day the Israelis kill children.
BBC:I do ask them that. I ask them that all the time.
Palestinian terrorist or their supporter: No. This question is never asked to the Israelis
BBC: If you listen to my reports you'll see that I raise this issue with the Israelis all the time. But getting back to my question do you feel that targeting civilians and killing children, like what happened the most recent incident, helps your cause.
Palestinian terrorist or their supporter: This violence is all the fault of the Israelis and will not end blah blah blah
The BBC could save some money and just play the same interview over and over again.
Remember that Gandhi freed India without bloodshed. I really think the change is going to come when you get the right guy on the inside. The problem is getting the right guys on the inside on both sides of the conflict and them not getting killed... What we need is some sort of grass roots campaign. Something along the lines of, "look, our goverment does what the hell it wants and doesn't consult the people just like yours. Huh, I think everybody has the right to live the way they choose. Want to get together and stage a peace-a-thon?"
Terrorism results when a group of people are voiceless, stateless and have no redress for grievances. There is no real attempt to correct this situation in the Israel Palestine conflict. Both sides are terrorizing each other, with the Palestinians being funded by Saudi Arabia, and thne Israelis funded by the US. Its another case of don't think, follow the faith, follow the $$$, follow my leader, my gang is better than yours, my God is better than yours....in other words, infantile BS.
Both sides are killing each other. The terrorizing of Israeli civilians is seen as "justified" by the Arab world, just like the terrorizing of Palestinian civilians is see as "justified" by the Israeli powers that be, and officials and advisers in the Bush administration and the Pentagon. All these people are human beings. Why are some human lives seen as more valid than others, based on a bunch of inconsequential and arbitrary values based on medieval myth and superstition? The human race will remain no further on than we were 50,000 years back, when religion and government go hand in hand.
The Arab world have their extremists and fundie lunatics...we know only too well who some of them are. The Judaeo-Christian world have their extremists too...see the most recent addition to the ranks of our own lunatic/maniac/deluded fringe:
Terrorism results when a group of people are voiceless, stateless and have no redress for grievances. There is no real attempt to correct this situation in the Israel Palestine conflict. Both sides are terrorizing each other, with the Palestinians being funded by Saudi Arabia, and thne Israelis funded by the US. Its another case of don't think, follow the faith, follow the $$$, follow my leader, my gang is better than yours, my God is better than yours....in other words, infantile BS.
Both sides are killing each other. The terrorizing of Israeli civilians is seen as "justified" by the Arab world, just like the terrorizing of Palestinian civilians is see as "justified" by the Israeli powers that be, and officials and advisers in the Bush administration and the Pentagon. All these people are human beings. Why are some human lives seen as more valid than others, based on a bunch of inconsequential and arbitrary values based on medieval myth and superstition? The human race will remain no further on than we were 50,000 years back, when religion and government go hand in hand.
The Arab world have their extremists and fundie lunatics...we know only too well who some of them are. The Judaeo-Christian world have their extremists too...see the most recent addition to the ranks of our own lunatic/maniac/deluded fringe:
Typical moral relativism...or should I say moral obscurity.
You can explain, pontificate, justify and theorize all you'd like. The bottom line is that Palestinians are training other Palestinians to DELIBRATELY murder Israeli civilians to further their cause. Israel responds, sometimes killing innocents in the process.
If you can't see the difference there, than it is pointless to even discuss the subject with you. Israel has made its share of mistakes, but there has been no serious attempt on the Palestinian side to make peace and stop the violence. Israel has withdrawn over and over and over...only to be attacked again. There is a simple reason for that: There is a culture of terror among Palestinians. In this culture, the only solution is to expel all Jews from the land. Until such time, they will continue to be slaughtered.
Remember that Gandhi freed India without bloodshed. ...
There certainly was bloodshed. Gandhi certianly did not shed anyones blood but his cause was in fact helped by many people being killed in the process.
Typical moral relativism...or should I say moral obscurity.
I don't support either side. I cannot condone the willful murder of anyone. Both sides are murdering civilians. Perhaps there's your problem...you refuse to admit even the possibility that terrorism is being perpetrated by a nation that is supported by the United States, on *our* tax dollers. perhaps you profess to be a Christian, and you are unable to acknowledge that Jews and Christians are just as capable of terrorist acts as Arabs. Perhaps it's the media that has colored your view: US news sources are generally pro- Israel, European news sources are often pro Arab, Israeli news sources are naturally pro Israel and Arab ones naturally pro Arab. Maybe you view an Arab news source as being automatically wrong because...it is Arab? Or a US source is always correct because it is owned by a familiar/household name corporation? If suicide bombings of Israeli civilian is so wrong, which it obviously is, no argument against that, then why do you feel that the IDF bulldozing Palestinian farms and villages or bursting into ordinary peoples' homes spraying machine gun bullets is so right? Just because one side is well funded, wears neat uniforms and uses jet fighters and missiles, and the other side is a ragtag mob often reduced to throwing stones doesnt mean that the term terrorism applies just to the underdog? The usually accepted definition of terrorism by US law enforcement agencies reads something like this:
<<<<<International terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence committed by a group or individual, who has some connection to a foreign power or whose activities transcend national boundaries, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.>>>>>
By our own definition, it is abundantly plain that both sides are guilty, yet only one side is being blamed...and there lies a big portion of the problem.
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You can explain, pontificate, justify and theorize all you'd like. The bottom line is that Palestinians are training other Palestinians to DELIBRATELY murder Israeli civilians to further their cause. Israel responds, sometimes killing innocents in the process.
It is never as simple as that. Who attacks first? Both sides have attacked first. Both sides have retaliated. Put yourself in the position of the Israeli who loses half a family, blown to pieces in a cafe bomb planted by Islamic Jihad or Hamas? Or a Palestinian olive grower whose home is bulldozed to the ground crushing his family as they sleep? There are angry folk on both sides who go to extreme measures. Is the one with the "preferred religion" in the right?
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If you can't see the difference there, than it is pointless to even discuss the subject with you. Israel has made its share of mistakes, but there has been no serious attempt on the Palestinian side to make peace and stop the violence.
Again, it is never as simple as that! Stop and think for a minute: Do you honestly and truly believe that if all the suicide bombings suddenly stopped, Sharon would make peace with the Palestinians? Like hell...that would never, ever happen for as long as (Sharon), or the likes of him hold power in Israel. Sharon started the current unrest with that Temple Mount exercise of anti-diplomacy, knowing full well it would infuriate the Arab community. The last 2.5 years of warfare and terror has much to do with Sharon the man himself...he was even found guilty by an Israeli court of inquiry for his part in massacres in the 1980s that killed thousands. Arabs despise this man.and for good reasons. Similarly, while Arafat and company have anything to do with the leadership of the Palestinians, and the madrassa schools (Saudi Arabia is by far the worst offender here, as well as terrorism funding) keep up their doctrinaire of anti-Jewish hatred, the conflict will continue. It seems very strange that Arafat is still even alive, and (nonimally) "in power"...but the powers that be in Israel must have been extremely careful to preserve him: they could have killed him or incarcerated for life 10,000 times over, allowing the Palestinian people to start afresh...but no.
By our own definition, it is abundantly plain that both sides are guilty, yet only one side is being blamed...and there lies a big portion of the problem.
Blame can be had on both sides. Trying to accuse Israel of terrorism is just propaganda. Israel has exercised tremendous restraint, given their ability to reduce the palestinians to nothing at pretty much a whim. The Palestinians on the other had, attack pretty much as they are able, and teach their children, though govenment sponsored 'child welfare' agencies, schools and PA produced MTV style music videos, that Israel has no right to exist, that suicide-murders for Islam/Palestine is holy and that children ought to be willing, grateful and happy to have the opportunity to become Shahid through Shahada.
Yes, it is clear Israel has killed civilians. It is also clear that they to not target civilians, opting at times to send in foot soldiers to enter an area that an air strike could have cleared much easier, but put civilians at risk.
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Originally posted by sammi jo
It is never as simple as that. Who attacks first? Both sides have attacked first. Both sides have retaliated. Put yourself in the position of the Israeli who loses half a family, blown to pieces in a cafe bomb planted by Islamic Jihad or Hamas? Or a Palestinian olive grower whose home is bulldozed to the ground crushing his family as they sleep? There are angry folk on both sides who go to extreme measures. Is the one with the "preferred religion" in the right?
How about the side in the wrong being the side that targeted the cafe or bus and blew the heads off of children and women.
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Originally posted by sammi jo
Again, it is never as simple as that! Stop and think for a minute: Do you honestly and truly believe that if all the suicide bombings suddenly stopped, Sharon would make peace with the Palestinians? Like hell...that would never, ever happen for as long as (Sharon), or the likes of him hold power in Israel. Sharon started the current unrest with that Temple Mount exercise of anti-diplomacy, knowing full well it would infuriate the Arab community. The last 2.5 years of warfare and terror has much to do with Sharon the man himself...he was even found guilty by an Israeli court of inquiry for his part in massacres in the 1980s that killed thousands. Arabs despise this man.and for good reasons.
Stop and think for a moment yourself. Do you honestly believe that if Sharon gave into the Palestinian demands, pulled back his military, demolished all settlements, allowed all refugee's return and tore down the wall today that there would be any peace? All you would see is a lot more dead jews.
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Originally posted by sammi jo
Similarly, while Arafat and company have anything to do with the leadership of the Palestinians, and the madrassa schools (Saudi Arabia is by far the worst offender here, as well as terrorism funding) keep up their doctrinaire of anti-Jewish hatred, the conflict will continue. It seems very strange that Arafat is still even alive, and (nonimally) "in power"...but the powers that be in Israel must have been extremely careful to preserve him: they could have killed him or incarcerated for life 10,000 times over, allowing the Palestinian people to start afresh...but no.
So, Israel refuses to do anything about Arafat because they want him there? They tried exile once...didn't stop him. If they even openly debated the possibility of removing him, the palestinians riot and Europe comdemns Israel for the idea. Jail him? yeah, that would stop him and make Israel even so much more popular...
There wont be any peace until Arafat is dead. I'm not saying anyone should kill him but the simple fact is the only way he'll be out of the way in in a coffin.
Terrorism results when a group of people are voiceless, stateless and have no redress for grievances. There is no real attempt to correct this situation in the Israel Palestine conflict. Both sides are terrorizing each other, with the Palestinians being funded by Saudi Arabia, and thne Israelis funded by the US. Its another case of don't think, follow the faith, follow the $$$, follow my leader, my gang is better than yours, my God is better than yours....in other words, infantile BS.
Time for a history lesson. This conflict has been about trying to drive the Jews into the sea for CENTURIES. When England let go of the territory and Isreal was created all of you stateless palestinians were promised by their Arab brethren that the Jews would finally be wiped out. SO the Palestinians LEFT their homes WILLINGLY to go join th eother countries in what would become one of the most embarassing routes in history. After that they were abandoned by the other nations in the area.
You have no idea about the concessions Isreal gave to the Palestinians, even to the point of jeopardizing their own national security. They call for a cease fire and the bombings continue. Each time agreements are made, they start new violence under the guise of a white flag and claim that Isreal provoked them, for some reason not covered in the agreement. If they want peace sign a treaty and stick to it. Stop signing them and telling the arab media how much closer you are to driving isreal into the seas 5 minutes later.
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Both sides are killing each other. The terrorizing of Israeli civilians is seen as "justified" by the Arab world, just like the terrorizing of Palestinian civilians is see as "justified" by the Israeli powers that be, and officials and advisers in the Bush administration and the Pentagon. All these people are human beings. Why are some human lives seen as more valid than others, based on a bunch of inconsequential and arbitrary values based on medieval myth and superstition? The human race will remain no further on than we were 50,000 years back, when religion and government go hand in hand.
Ask Hamas and they will tell you they are at war. If you were attacked, wouldn't you defend yourself and your family? If people would run up and kick your children and run away wouldn't you try to track them down? What if you found them? What if you found them in a house full of children because they knew you wouldn't do anything in front of children?
How are some lives worth more than others? Value. If their loved ones are willing to use children and elderly as human shields in the name of breaking the one fundamantal law of almost ALL religions (The whole DON'T KILL thing...) then they don't value their own children's lives. If they don't value their children's life why should the people they're killing value them when they pick up guns and make themselves targets (yet another favorite strategy of terrorists), or being used by their own families as human shields?
Do you really think that if Arafat died tomorrow by any means things would be any different at all ?
Yes I do. Arafat is a terrorist and it's been documented that he never intended to make peace with the Jews. There can be no peace with Aarafat.
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Originally posted by segovius
Do you really think he has any control whatsoever over Hamas or Islamic Jihad ?
Of course Arafat doesn't even try to get control over Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Why would one terrorist try to get control over others? Oddly enough he could be the only person that could get control over Hamas and IJ. Whoever is next after the lead terrorist dies will be too weak to take on Hamas and IJ.
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
Arafat is responsible for the bombings either through inaction to stop the murderers or directly, as has been shown when teh reciepts for payment for bomb making parts were uncovered in his compound . . . remember that?!?!
Also, if you look back at his history you can see where his modus operandi gets its bearings: he killed two Americans (agents) personally and yet has never been charged for it . . .
if he was a leader worth paying attention to by the Palastinians he would apply some imagination to solving problems rather than tacidly (or outrightly) supporting the MURDERS of civilians . . murders which trigger the further killing of civilians in retaliatory strikes against the future murderers of more civilians.
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
Arafat is responsible for the bombings either through inaction to stop the murderers or directly, as has been shown when teh reciepts for payment for bomb making parts were uncovered in his compound . . . remember that?!?!
Also, if you look back at his history you can see where his modus operandi gets its bearings: he killed two Americans (agents) personally and yet has never been charged for it . . .
if he was a leader worth paying attention to by the Palastinians he would apply some imagination to solving problems rather than tacidly (or outrightly) supporting the MURDERS of civilians . . murders which trigger the further killing of civilians in retaliatory strikes against the future murderers of more civilians.
Btw - this shows the utter stupidity of the right and why as I said above Israel is losing and can only lose:
Israel is losing? Seems like they have kicked the ass of pretty much every 'brotherly nation' that has openly come against them. They haven't 'defeated' the Palestinians, this is true. They certainly have the ability to crush them to dust, if they choose to do so. They haven't. This isn't a loss, it is a restrained response. You say they are losing, how then are the Palestinians winning? Grow up, neither side is 'winning', they only lose loved ones on both sides.
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Of course it's good from your POV. You seems a bloodthirsty sort. That he can't compromise and will not negotiate a peace at any cost, is good in your eyes? I used to think you were someone who studied the issues, as you obviously have, and came to your conclusions. I realize more recently that your conclusions were forgone and your solution simply more blood.
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Originally posted by segovius
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
PLO isn't a terrorist group? You must have pretty high standards for terrorists...along with your high regard for them. Arafat continues to funnel money to fatah. The other groups cooperate more and more, sharing personel, resources, intelligence and funding. And for money in the OT, all roads lead to Arafat and the PA.
Maybe you'd like to add this link to your collection. Interesting Ha'aretz article about an Israeli Jew making and selling bomb parts. Probably not though.
By the way, I'm sure you know that the state of Israel would not exist without the activities of the terrorist Stern Gang and Irgun so I'd expect you to condemn them too. But then they're not terrorists to you are they ? You have to be Arab for that.
That's cute . . . but I never said that there were not also Israeli terrorists
though it allowed you to forgo answering the charges about Arafat . . . and allows you to keep believing that what he promotes is somehow a good thing
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
You know nothing. It's not even worth discussing this with you. Go read up on Arafat and come back.
It never ends with this topic. There are still people here who can't see the distinction between what Israel is doing and what the homicide bombers are doing.
The Palestinians feel the jews are on their land. To realize their goal of exterminating the jews, they are willing to strap themselves with explosives and....say it with me: DELIBRATELY KILL CIVILIANS to further their "agenda".
Israel does not do this. That's the distinction. They only target those who they believe to be terrorists. They screw up and sometimes there is collateral damage. They even go after the families of terrorists sometimes. That is simply not the same as attacking those who are known....ABSOLUTELY KNOWN to be innocent in the hopes the carnage effects political change.
Sammi jo, for example, says she isn't on either side. That's the whole point. To not choose sides is to tacitly condone terrorist acts.
Palestinians often kill troops, but it's not reported as such. Most busses have troops on them just as most cars hit by rockets have civilian cars around them.
Palestinians often kill troops, but it's not reported as such. Most busses have troops on them just as most cars hit by rockets have civilian cars around them.
bunge, if you want to go on believing that, you're free to do so.
Comments
They say they are at war - maybe a guerilla war but that's war in my book. Call it what you like - they're killing each other.[quote]
So if they're at war with Isreal and they are bombing civilian areas, what makes it so wrong for Isreal to respond similarly? Why do morals have to bother one group when they so obviously don't bother the other side?
Yes they are killing each other. And it's the saddest thing in the world, something that should never happen.
The US kill innocent women and children - wanna see some pics of that little boy Ali with no arms and legs ? Or the dead kids and 55 civilians strewn over Abu Taleb market ? Maybe they're not innocent in your view. Maybe it didn't happen in your view. Wouldn't surprise me.
This is what happens when people start bombing cities. However, I don't think it's fair to point out that civilians are getting hurt when their own people endanger them by running millitary operations from peoples houses in heavily populated areas. That's like getting in a fight and pulling your friend in front of you to take the first punch...
I say they are legitimate targets if they are sneaking round in the Gaza or the Occupied territories.
Israeli is killing kids - Palestinians are killing Israelis. Like I always say, depends whose side you're on. Don't try to take the moral high ground - at least do what the Israelis do and say 'yeah we killed Palestinians - so what ?'. This I can respect, let's you know who and what you're dealing with but spare us the sanctimonious BS. It's a war. People are killing each other.
Good Point. It's hard to take the high ground when people are being killed on all sides. Also realize exactly what each side is really looking for though.
Seriously for a minute - I have no perticular axe to grind against the US but if they continue to unevenly and unconditionally support Israel then US operatives on the ground are legitimate targets by definition.
Turn it round - if another country not yet involved in Iraq (say) sends in operatives that are 100% behind al Qaeda (say) both you and I know they would be legitimate targets.
The main issue here is that Palestinians agreed not to attack US targets in the area so that they may work out a peace process. This process, which will never suceed as long as Arafat is in office, has failed several times due to people being unable to just stop killing people.
The US needs to start leading the world in some justice - that's the only thing that can save her now. Two weeks ago Israel bombed civilians outside Damascus. Bush supported it. Any other country sent bombers to another country and killed civilians and it would be an act of war. That's hypocrisy and that's also the cause of terrorism because if people can't look to America for justice where can they look ? They should look to America and they should get justice from America - they don't, so they take the law into their own hands. You'd do the same. Except in this case you call them terrorists - but because you're on the other side. No tother reason.
Fair enough - but just tell it like it is. [/B]
If people (from this area of the world) looked to the US for justice there never would have been a 9/11 bombing. The fact of the matter is that simply by being allies with Isreal makes the US their enemy. That is the only reason. If they want peace, then they need to stick to the treaties they sign. You can't praise a cease fire and then get on the phone and order up bombings. You can't claim to want peace and then claim on TV throughout the area that you will drive your enemy into the sea.
BBC: Today three Israeli children were killed on a bus by a bomber. One as young as 18 months. Do you feel targeting civilians in this way is proper and supports your cause.
Palestinian terrorist or their supporter: Ask the Israelis that. Each day the Israelis kill children.
BBC:I do ask them that. I ask them that all the time.
Palestinian terrorist or their supporter: No. This question is never asked to the Israelis
BBC: If you listen to my reports you'll see that I raise this issue with the Israelis all the time. But getting back to my question do you feel that targeting civilians and killing children, like what happened the most recent incident, helps your cause.
Palestinian terrorist or their supporter: This violence is all the fault of the Israelis and will not end blah blah blah
The BBC could save some money and just play the same interview over and over again.
Both sides are killing each other. The terrorizing of Israeli civilians is seen as "justified" by the Arab world, just like the terrorizing of Palestinian civilians is see as "justified" by the Israeli powers that be, and officials and advisers in the Bush administration and the Pentagon. All these people are human beings. Why are some human lives seen as more valid than others, based on a bunch of inconsequential and arbitrary values based on medieval myth and superstition? The human race will remain no further on than we were 50,000 years back, when religion and government go hand in hand.
The Arab world have their extremists and fundie lunatics...we know only too well who some of them are. The Judaeo-Christian world have their extremists too...see the most recent addition to the ranks of our own lunatic/maniac/deluded fringe:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/16/rum....ap/index.html
Originally posted by sammi jo
Terrorism results when a group of people are voiceless, stateless and have no redress for grievances. There is no real attempt to correct this situation in the Israel Palestine conflict. Both sides are terrorizing each other, with the Palestinians being funded by Saudi Arabia, and thne Israelis funded by the US. Its another case of don't think, follow the faith, follow the $$$, follow my leader, my gang is better than yours, my God is better than yours....in other words, infantile BS.
Both sides are killing each other. The terrorizing of Israeli civilians is seen as "justified" by the Arab world, just like the terrorizing of Palestinian civilians is see as "justified" by the Israeli powers that be, and officials and advisers in the Bush administration and the Pentagon. All these people are human beings. Why are some human lives seen as more valid than others, based on a bunch of inconsequential and arbitrary values based on medieval myth and superstition? The human race will remain no further on than we were 50,000 years back, when religion and government go hand in hand.
The Arab world have their extremists and fundie lunatics...we know only too well who some of them are. The Judaeo-Christian world have their extremists too...see the most recent addition to the ranks of our own lunatic/maniac/deluded fringe:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/16/rum....ap/index.html
Typical moral relativism...or should I say moral obscurity.
You can explain, pontificate, justify and theorize all you'd like. The bottom line is that Palestinians are training other Palestinians to DELIBRATELY murder Israeli civilians to further their cause. Israel responds, sometimes killing innocents in the process.
If you can't see the difference there, than it is pointless to even discuss the subject with you. Israel has made its share of mistakes, but there has been no serious attempt on the Palestinian side to make peace and stop the violence. Israel has withdrawn over and over and over...only to be attacked again. There is a simple reason for that: There is a culture of terror among Palestinians. In this culture, the only solution is to expel all Jews from the land. Until such time, they will continue to be slaughtered.
Try negotiating with that.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
Remember that Gandhi freed India without bloodshed. ...
There certainly was bloodshed. Gandhi certianly did not shed anyones blood but his cause was in fact helped by many people being killed in the process.
Originally posted by SDW2001
Typical moral relativism...or should I say moral obscurity.
I don't support either side. I cannot condone the willful murder of anyone. Both sides are murdering civilians. Perhaps there's your problem...you refuse to admit even the possibility that terrorism is being perpetrated by a nation that is supported by the United States, on *our* tax dollers. perhaps you profess to be a Christian, and you are unable to acknowledge that Jews and Christians are just as capable of terrorist acts as Arabs. Perhaps it's the media that has colored your view: US news sources are generally pro- Israel, European news sources are often pro Arab, Israeli news sources are naturally pro Israel and Arab ones naturally pro Arab. Maybe you view an Arab news source as being automatically wrong because...it is Arab? Or a US source is always correct because it is owned by a familiar/household name corporation? If suicide bombings of Israeli civilian is so wrong, which it obviously is, no argument against that, then why do you feel that the IDF bulldozing Palestinian farms and villages or bursting into ordinary peoples' homes spraying machine gun bullets is so right? Just because one side is well funded, wears neat uniforms and uses jet fighters and missiles, and the other side is a ragtag mob often reduced to throwing stones doesnt mean that the term terrorism applies just to the underdog? The usually accepted definition of terrorism by US law enforcement agencies reads something like this:
<<<<<International terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence committed by a group or individual, who has some connection to a foreign power or whose activities transcend national boundaries, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.>>>>>
By our own definition, it is abundantly plain that both sides are guilty, yet only one side is being blamed...and there lies a big portion of the problem.
You can explain, pontificate, justify and theorize all you'd like. The bottom line is that Palestinians are training other Palestinians to DELIBRATELY murder Israeli civilians to further their cause. Israel responds, sometimes killing innocents in the process.
It is never as simple as that. Who attacks first? Both sides have attacked first. Both sides have retaliated. Put yourself in the position of the Israeli who loses half a family, blown to pieces in a cafe bomb planted by Islamic Jihad or Hamas? Or a Palestinian olive grower whose home is bulldozed to the ground crushing his family as they sleep? There are angry folk on both sides who go to extreme measures. Is the one with the "preferred religion" in the right?
If you can't see the difference there, than it is pointless to even discuss the subject with you. Israel has made its share of mistakes, but there has been no serious attempt on the Palestinian side to make peace and stop the violence.
Again, it is never as simple as that! Stop and think for a minute: Do you honestly and truly believe that if all the suicide bombings suddenly stopped, Sharon would make peace with the Palestinians? Like hell...that would never, ever happen for as long as (Sharon), or the likes of him hold power in Israel. Sharon started the current unrest with that Temple Mount exercise of anti-diplomacy, knowing full well it would infuriate the Arab community. The last 2.5 years of warfare and terror has much to do with Sharon the man himself...he was even found guilty by an Israeli court of inquiry for his part in massacres in the 1980s that killed thousands. Arabs despise this man.and for good reasons. Similarly, while Arafat and company have anything to do with the leadership of the Palestinians, and the madrassa schools (Saudi Arabia is by far the worst offender here, as well as terrorism funding) keep up their doctrinaire of anti-Jewish hatred, the conflict will continue. It seems very strange that Arafat is still even alive, and (nonimally) "in power"...but the powers that be in Israel must have been extremely careful to preserve him: they could have killed him or incarcerated for life 10,000 times over, allowing the Palestinian people to start afresh...but no.
Originally posted by sammi jo
By our own definition, it is abundantly plain that both sides are guilty, yet only one side is being blamed...and there lies a big portion of the problem.
Blame can be had on both sides. Trying to accuse Israel of terrorism is just propaganda. Israel has exercised tremendous restraint, given their ability to reduce the palestinians to nothing at pretty much a whim. The Palestinians on the other had, attack pretty much as they are able, and teach their children, though govenment sponsored 'child welfare' agencies, schools and PA produced MTV style music videos, that Israel has no right to exist, that suicide-murders for Islam/Palestine is holy and that children ought to be willing, grateful and happy to have the opportunity to become Shahid through Shahada.
Yes, it is clear Israel has killed civilians. It is also clear that they to not target civilians, opting at times to send in foot soldiers to enter an area that an air strike could have cleared much easier, but put civilians at risk.
Originally posted by sammi jo
It is never as simple as that. Who attacks first? Both sides have attacked first. Both sides have retaliated. Put yourself in the position of the Israeli who loses half a family, blown to pieces in a cafe bomb planted by Islamic Jihad or Hamas? Or a Palestinian olive grower whose home is bulldozed to the ground crushing his family as they sleep? There are angry folk on both sides who go to extreme measures. Is the one with the "preferred religion" in the right?
How about the side in the wrong being the side that targeted the cafe or bus and blew the heads off of children and women.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Again, it is never as simple as that! Stop and think for a minute: Do you honestly and truly believe that if all the suicide bombings suddenly stopped, Sharon would make peace with the Palestinians? Like hell...that would never, ever happen for as long as (Sharon), or the likes of him hold power in Israel. Sharon started the current unrest with that Temple Mount exercise of anti-diplomacy, knowing full well it would infuriate the Arab community. The last 2.5 years of warfare and terror has much to do with Sharon the man himself...he was even found guilty by an Israeli court of inquiry for his part in massacres in the 1980s that killed thousands. Arabs despise this man.and for good reasons.
Stop and think for a moment yourself. Do you honestly believe that if Sharon gave into the Palestinian demands, pulled back his military, demolished all settlements, allowed all refugee's return and tore down the wall today that there would be any peace? All you would see is a lot more dead jews.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Similarly, while Arafat and company have anything to do with the leadership of the Palestinians, and the madrassa schools (Saudi Arabia is by far the worst offender here, as well as terrorism funding) keep up their doctrinaire of anti-Jewish hatred, the conflict will continue. It seems very strange that Arafat is still even alive, and (nonimally) "in power"...but the powers that be in Israel must have been extremely careful to preserve him: they could have killed him or incarcerated for life 10,000 times over, allowing the Palestinian people to start afresh...but no.
So, Israel refuses to do anything about Arafat because they want him there? They tried exile once...didn't stop him. If they even openly debated the possibility of removing him, the palestinians riot and Europe comdemns Israel for the idea. Jail him? yeah, that would stop him and make Israel even so much more popular...
Originally posted by sammi jo
Terrorism results when a group of people are voiceless, stateless and have no redress for grievances. There is no real attempt to correct this situation in the Israel Palestine conflict. Both sides are terrorizing each other, with the Palestinians being funded by Saudi Arabia, and thne Israelis funded by the US. Its another case of don't think, follow the faith, follow the $$$, follow my leader, my gang is better than yours, my God is better than yours....in other words, infantile BS.
Time for a history lesson. This conflict has been about trying to drive the Jews into the sea for CENTURIES. When England let go of the territory and Isreal was created all of you stateless palestinians were promised by their Arab brethren that the Jews would finally be wiped out. SO the Palestinians LEFT their homes WILLINGLY to go join th eother countries in what would become one of the most embarassing routes in history. After that they were abandoned by the other nations in the area.
You have no idea about the concessions Isreal gave to the Palestinians, even to the point of jeopardizing their own national security. They call for a cease fire and the bombings continue. Each time agreements are made, they start new violence under the guise of a white flag and claim that Isreal provoked them, for some reason not covered in the agreement. If they want peace sign a treaty and stick to it. Stop signing them and telling the arab media how much closer you are to driving isreal into the seas 5 minutes later.
Both sides are killing each other. The terrorizing of Israeli civilians is seen as "justified" by the Arab world, just like the terrorizing of Palestinian civilians is see as "justified" by the Israeli powers that be, and officials and advisers in the Bush administration and the Pentagon. All these people are human beings. Why are some human lives seen as more valid than others, based on a bunch of inconsequential and arbitrary values based on medieval myth and superstition? The human race will remain no further on than we were 50,000 years back, when religion and government go hand in hand.
Ask Hamas and they will tell you they are at war. If you were attacked, wouldn't you defend yourself and your family? If people would run up and kick your children and run away wouldn't you try to track them down? What if you found them? What if you found them in a house full of children because they knew you wouldn't do anything in front of children?
How are some lives worth more than others? Value. If their loved ones are willing to use children and elderly as human shields in the name of breaking the one fundamantal law of almost ALL religions (The whole DON'T KILL thing...) then they don't value their own children's lives. If they don't value their children's life why should the people they're killing value them when they pick up guns and make themselves targets (yet another favorite strategy of terrorists), or being used by their own families as human shields?
Originally posted by segovius
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Do you really think that if Arafat died tomorrow by any means things would be any different at all ?
Yes I do. Arafat is a terrorist and it's been documented that he never intended to make peace with the Jews. There can be no peace with Aarafat.
Originally posted by segovius
Do you really think he has any control whatsoever over Hamas or Islamic Jihad ?
Of course Arafat doesn't even try to get control over Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Why would one terrorist try to get control over others? Oddly enough he could be the only person that could get control over Hamas and IJ. Whoever is next after the lead terrorist dies will be too weak to take on Hamas and IJ.
Originally posted by segovius
Documented by who ?
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
Arafat is responsible for the bombings either through inaction to stop the murderers or directly, as has been shown when teh reciepts for payment for bomb making parts were uncovered in his compound . . . remember that?!?!
Also, if you look back at his history you can see where his modus operandi gets its bearings: he killed two Americans (agents) personally and yet has never been charged for it . . .
if he was a leader worth paying attention to by the Palastinians he would apply some imagination to solving problems rather than tacidly (or outrightly) supporting the MURDERS of civilians . . murders which trigger the further killing of civilians in retaliatory strikes against the future murderers of more civilians.
Originally posted by segovius
Documented by who ?
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
Arafat is responsible for the bombings either through inaction to stop the murderers or directly, as has been shown when teh reciepts for payment for bomb making parts were uncovered in his compound . . . remember that?!?!
Also, if you look back at his history you can see where his modus operandi gets its bearings: he killed two Americans (agents) personally and yet has never been charged for it . . .
if he was a leader worth paying attention to by the Palastinians he would apply some imagination to solving problems rather than tacidly (or outrightly) supporting the MURDERS of civilians . . murders which trigger the further killing of civilians in retaliatory strikes against the future murderers of more civilians.
Originally posted by segovius
Btw - this shows the utter stupidity of the right and why as I said above Israel is losing and can only lose:
Israel is losing? Seems like they have kicked the ass of pretty much every 'brotherly nation' that has openly come against them. They haven't 'defeated' the Palestinians, this is true. They certainly have the ability to crush them to dust, if they choose to do so. They haven't. This isn't a loss, it is a restrained response. You say they are losing, how then are the Palestinians winning? Grow up, neither side is 'winning', they only lose loved ones on both sides.
Originally posted by segovius
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Of course it's good from your POV. You seems a bloodthirsty sort. That he can't compromise and will not negotiate a peace at any cost, is good in your eyes? I used to think you were someone who studied the issues, as you obviously have, and came to your conclusions. I realize more recently that your conclusions were forgone and your solution simply more blood.
Originally posted by segovius
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
PLO isn't a terrorist group? You must have pretty high standards for terrorists...along with your high regard for them. Arafat continues to funnel money to fatah. The other groups cooperate more and more, sharing personel, resources, intelligence and funding. And for money in the OT, all roads lead to Arafat and the PA.
Originally posted by segovius
Maybe you'd like to add this link to your collection. Interesting Ha'aretz article about an Israeli Jew making and selling bomb parts. Probably not though.
By the way, I'm sure you know that the state of Israel would not exist without the activities of the terrorist Stern Gang and Irgun so I'd expect you to condemn them too. But then they're not terrorists to you are they ? You have to be Arab for that.
That's cute . . . but I never said that there were not also Israeli terrorists
though it allowed you to forgo answering the charges about Arafat . . . and allows you to keep believing that what he promotes is somehow a good thing
Originally posted by segovius
Documented by who ?
Of course there can be no peace with Arafat - he won't cave in to whatever Israel demands. Good from my pov - bad from yours.
Btw how is he a terrorist ? - you admit he doesn't control IJ or Hamas so you can't argue it by extension. The PLO isn't a terrorist group so that leaves the possibility that you know of some specific terrorist action he was involved in. Which is no possibility at all because you don't know what you're talking about.
You know nothing. It's not even worth discussing this with you. Go read up on Arafat and come back.
The Palestinians feel the jews are on their land. To realize their goal of exterminating the jews, they are willing to strap themselves with explosives and....say it with me: DELIBRATELY KILL CIVILIANS to further their "agenda".
Israel does not do this. That's the distinction. They only target those who they believe to be terrorists. They screw up and sometimes there is collateral damage. They even go after the families of terrorists sometimes. That is simply not the same as attacking those who are known....ABSOLUTELY KNOWN to be innocent in the hopes the carnage effects political change.
Sammi jo, for example, says she isn't on either side. That's the whole point. To not choose sides is to tacitly condone terrorist acts.
Originally posted by bunge
Palestinians often kill troops, but it's not reported as such. Most busses have troops on them just as most cars hit by rockets have civilian cars around them.
bunge, if you want to go on believing that, you're free to do so.