Wreck the car and auto body shops employ people and parts companies make parts. I have to admit you have a tone of whine cry and moan in this post. If this were under the watch of Clinton or Gore I would speculate you would not have such a sour tone.
It's nothing to do with party politics on my part (I'm not a democrat and I don't dislike the Bush administration because it is a republican one). The fact is that there are still serious issues with the economy, and celebrating GDP growth distracts much needed attention from these issues. I was also attempting to demonstrate that GDP growth as a sole indicator is far from being the best measurement of how 'good' things are, and even a high growth rate can be misleading. The current GDP growth is a result of short term fixes (tax cuts) and military spending. It is therefore neither sustainable nor beneficial to the vast majority of people living in this country.
It's nothing to do with party politics on my part (I'm not a democrat and I don't dislike the Bush administration because it is a republican one). The fact is that there are still serious issues with the economy, and celebrating GDP growth distracts much needed attention from these issues. I was also attempting to demonstrate that GDP growth as a sole indicator is far from being the best measurement of how 'good' things are, and even a high growth rate can be misleading. The current GDP growth is a result of short term fixes (tax cuts) and military spending. It is therefore neither sustainable nor beneficial to the vast majority of people living in this country.
I agree 100% Thanks for being clear with your thoughts. People need to consider all factors and indicators. As to what will provide for sustainable growth in the economy I submit that education and higher education be priority number one. Good jobs and cutting edge technology will pave the road for further growth.
Who's benefiting? That is, for whom is this economy "scorching"?
Wealthy people still need to hire poor people, and they tend to buy more stuff too. With the growing popularity of Cadillacs, I'm sure it will help at least a few hundred working class folks.
This is for all the democrat cry babies that whine about deficits due to the tax cut which has helped spur the economy
1. It's "Democratic cry babies," not "democrat cry babies."
2. We know for sure that deficits increase gov't budgets due to debt financing. That will have to be dealt with in the future. But who cares! You're being a crybaby if you don't like it, right! The Republican way - increase spending dramatically and cut taxes dramatically, and when people say "hey, that's not sound policy," just call them democrat cry babies. Davis was recalled in CA largely because of a deficit that he fixed before leaving office; will the rest of the country do the same to Bush for an even larger deficit that he doesn't fix?
3. It's also a pretty well-accepted theory that deficits increase interest rates in the long term which is bad for the economy. But again, we're all about short-term, not long-term. Let some democrat cry baby in some future administration fix the mess, like Clinton fixed the mess left by Reagan-Bush fiscal policy. Probably Hillary will have to fix Bush's mess in 2008, if a democrat cry baby loses in 2004.
I cannot even begin to respond to the ridiculous comments posted above.
We acutally have people here saying "My two friends don't have jobs...so don't tell me the economy is getting better". My god...how can you people be serious?
I'm sorry to be "arrogant" about it, as one poster said...but give me a break, folks. Unemployment, Fran, IS IN FACT a lagging indicator. The main measure of the economy is GDP growth. There is simply no argument there. What would YOU measure it with...whether or not you and your friends have jobs? Wow. You can't be serious either!!! Can you?
And once again, I get called out for posting a thread quckily on the topic. Meanwhile, we have six billion anti-Bush threads posted every day.
What a joke you guys can be. The economy is in full blown recovery and your bullshit partisan poltics refuse to let you see it.
Maybe this strong quarter will kick in and employers will decide to begin hiring," Price said. But that's not assured because firms have been able to boost production without having their current employees work longer hours, much less add more workers, he said.
Well I'm glad the GDP is up, I just hope more jobs pop up. Which isn't gaurenteed but they hint at it later that they might.
Quote:
Treasury Secretary John Snow called the report "very encouraging. . . . It shows we are getting on the right path with the economy." However, Snow noted that "job creation has yet to take hold," although he added that recent declines in initial claims for unemployment benefits and hiring by temporary help agencies are "signs the labor market is starting to improve."
I wouldn't call that a "Full blown recovery," but yes it's getting there, and yes Bush's tax cuts did help some.
I'm curious about something. I'm not sure I even buy the idea that the economy was really improved by the tax cuts - I think it has more to do with the regular cycle of the economy - but if you do buy it, is it really a good way to do things? I mean, wouldn't it be a kind of false recovery if it's really based on these tax cuts?
If gov't spending was reduced along with tax cuts, i.e., if the tax cuts were sustainable, that would be different. But aren't we just like a family who runs up credit card debt and then says "hey, our economic situation has really improved! Look at this new car we have!"
Again, I'm not entirely convinced that the tax cuts are really key here. But certainly that will be the re-election line. And if it is the line, isn't there an inherent hollowness to the argument?
there are so many other things to fall into place, yes it's great news, but better news is the fact that companies are buying goods and increasing payroll, and it's the first time in a while that that indicator has been in tune with consumer spending.
but president bush isn't even saying it's a full blown recovery, i believe he says we're on the right path. but he also said not to expect that kind of growth next quarter.
to take take one economic indicator (albeit a broad one, but sorry not the definitive one) from one quarter and announce to the world that the u.s. economy is fully recovered, is incorrect.
calling it a economic "boom" is laughable and shows where your head is.
The economy is in full blown recovery and your bullshit partisan poltics refuse to let you see it.
Full blown recovery? Do you really believe this or do you just not know what you're talking about?
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
wouldn't it be a kind of false recovery if it's really based on these tax cuts?
Not a false one, just not sustainable. The tax cuts spurred corporate spending at a point when a boost was needed, but the biggest portion of the GDP growth came from the increase in military spending. We''ll pay for it later.
Again, I'm not saying that GDP growth isn't a good thing...its just that its not the only thing.
i'd also add that there is nothing wrong with deficit spending, not only in times of national emergencies, but to spur on the economy.
i didn't say unchecked deficit spending, but deficit spending in general, i think the nineties proved that a good economy, with changes in government spending practices can turn a deficit around quicker than many think.
i'd also add that there is nothing wrong with deficit spending, not only in times of national emergencies, but to spur on the economy.
i didn't say unchecked deficit spending, but deficit spending in general, i think the nineties proved that a good economy, with changes in government spending practices can turn a deficit around quicker than many think.
Full blown recovery? Do you really believe this or do you just not know what you're talking about?
Not a false one, just not sustainable. The tax cuts spurred corporate spending at a point when a boost was needed, but the biggest portion of the GDP growth came from the increase in military spending. We''ll pay for it later.
Again, I'm not saying that GDP growth isn't a good thing...its just that its not the only thing.
Yes, I do believe it. Look at the data and tell me otherwise. We have historically low and dropping unemployment. We have a booming market for the year. We have bigtime GDP growth. Shall I continue?
Yes, I do believe it. Look at the data and tell me otherwise. We have historically low and dropping unemployment. We have a booming market for the year. We have bigtime GDP growth. Shall I continue?
i think we've had a market that has gone from being undervalued to slightly overvalued, it's a bull market not a boom market. when corporate profits show some sustained black ink for more than a couple of quarters you can call it a boom market. you have to have a sustained bull market followed by corporate profits to be a boom.
but even if it was a boom market, a boom market does not make it a boom economy.
i think we've had a market that has gone from being undervalued to slightly overvalued, it's a bull market not a boom market. when corporate profits show some sustained black ink for more than a couple of quarters you can call it a boom market. you have to have a sustained bull market followed by corporate profits to be a boom.
but even if it was a boom market, a boom market does not make it a boom economy.
I agree with this. I think it is good that we all see data in different ways. Some thought SDW overstated the latest data and that is fine. SDW stands by his view and that is fine. Hey,,, we are all part of the picture in one way or another when you really think about it. Sure we all want job growth and sustainable growth year over year. Honestly I think there are so many variables that this can be tricky but none the less a worthy goal. In the real world things go up and they go down just look at stock values and stock market composite indexes. I like to consider all opinions given concerning the situation we call life.
plus we've seen how the stock market isn't an indicator of anything other than brokers pulling fast ones.
i understand the need of anyone who's a supporter of the current administration to hype these figures, they could use some good news, it been a "hard slog'* on so many fronts for them lately.
Yes, I do believe it. Look at the data and tell me otherwise.
The only places I have seen this growth described as a 'boom' or a 'full blown recovery' are here (by you) and on Drudge. I've looked at the data and it is a start...but we are still some way from having recovered from the recession.
Quote:
Originally posted by SDW2001
We have historically low and dropping unemployment.
6.1% is historically low? Can you provide a source which shows that unemployment is dropping?
SDW, you need to stop the personal attacks. Calling people 'jokes' and their comments 'ridiculous' is not helping to get your points across.
Quote:
We have historically low and dropping unemployment.
SDW have to realize that there has been a net loss of jobs for the first time in 70 years, and the true sign of economic recovery will be when those jobs are recovered. Almost 50,000 people lost their jobs last quarter. How is that dropping unemployment? \
Record Federal Spending and record deficits have pushed the GDP up, but it's not going to keep up like this. If the record spending continues, there's either going to be tax hikes or money taken from Medicare and Social Security. Sacrificing Medicare and Social Security to give the economy a push is a bad trade off, especially for older Americans. After all, many older people have already had to accept 'early retirement' or were just laid off entirely and can't get another job.
The real reason that the GDP is so high is that we're right in the middle of two wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. We are spending a record amount of money, already a much more significant amount over what was spent in the first Gulf War. So in the last 20 years, there hasn't been this type of federal spending on the military.
Also remember that a ton of money is going to rebuilding Iraq (and to a much lesser extent, Afghanistan). The money might be going to American companies, but it's not creating new jobs here, it's creating new jobs there. With such a significant portion of our money going overseas, it's more unlikely that you're going to see a big increase in jobs in the next 6 months here, and most certainly not by the holidays.
Finally, you can call me partisan. You can say my points are 'a joke'. But I do question this administration because it hasn't given me anything to give me faith in them. They failed to keep their promises to NYC after 9/11, they misled the public about WOMD in Iraq when making the case for war, they lied in the State of the Union about enriched Uranium from Niger even though they knew it was false beforehand, they tried to pin the blame on the Navy for 'Mission Accomplished', there has been a net loss of jobs in the US since he took office (for the first time since the Depression), there is a record deficit, record federal spending, poor foreign relations that has most of the world upset with us, and most of all, they continue to lie to us about the War on Terror by trying to make a tie between Iraq and Al Qaeda (when Bin Laden himself called Saddam an infidel), and they continue to try and make a tie between Iraq and 9/11 (when no Iraqis were involved in the attack).
My point is that the Administration has a horrible track record and unless we start to see tangible improvements, 'lagging indicator' or not, I'm going to remain skeptical.
Yeah, um soooooo what happened to those millions of jobs? China, huh? India, ay?
Yes nothing fluffs the coffers more then outsourcing. Once those costly American workers have been replaced the company can spend freely elsewhere.
Recovering yes; not recovered.
Boom? Hardly... in fact, not at all.
Screed
Up down it doesn't matter. Manufacturing has been leaving the country since WW2. Nothing's going to stop it and you can't blame Bush or Clinton or Bush or Reagan or Carter...
Comments
Originally posted by rok
yeah, i know. but as it is, i'm kinda hamstrung, so it's either that or get really really drunk.
Hey man you are always welcome here in Dallas,, Drinks on me
btw sorry you live in louisiana... I recently drove through Shreveport Bossier city and it is a scary place...
Fellows
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Wreck the car and auto body shops employ people and parts companies make parts. I have to admit you have a tone of whine cry and moan in this post. If this were under the watch of Clinton or Gore I would speculate you would not have such a sour tone.
It's nothing to do with party politics on my part (I'm not a democrat and I don't dislike the Bush administration because it is a republican one). The fact is that there are still serious issues with the economy, and celebrating GDP growth distracts much needed attention from these issues. I was also attempting to demonstrate that GDP growth as a sole indicator is far from being the best measurement of how 'good' things are, and even a high growth rate can be misleading. The current GDP growth is a result of short term fixes (tax cuts) and military spending. It is therefore neither sustainable nor beneficial to the vast majority of people living in this country.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
It's nothing to do with party politics on my part (I'm not a democrat and I don't dislike the Bush administration because it is a republican one). The fact is that there are still serious issues with the economy, and celebrating GDP growth distracts much needed attention from these issues. I was also attempting to demonstrate that GDP growth as a sole indicator is far from being the best measurement of how 'good' things are, and even a high growth rate can be misleading. The current GDP growth is a result of short term fixes (tax cuts) and military spending. It is therefore neither sustainable nor beneficial to the vast majority of people living in this country.
I agree 100% Thanks for being clear with your thoughts. People need to consider all factors and indicators. As to what will provide for sustainable growth in the economy I submit that education and higher education be priority number one. Good jobs and cutting edge technology will pave the road for further growth.
Fellowship
Originally posted by Timo
Who's benefiting? That is, for whom is this economy "scorching"?
Wealthy people still need to hire poor people, and they tend to buy more stuff too. With the growing popularity of Cadillacs, I'm sure it will help at least a few hundred working class folks.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
This is for all the democrat cry babies that whine about deficits due to the tax cut which has helped spur the economy
1. It's "Democratic cry babies," not "democrat cry babies."
2. We know for sure that deficits increase gov't budgets due to debt financing. That will have to be dealt with in the future. But who cares! You're being a crybaby if you don't like it, right! The Republican way - increase spending dramatically and cut taxes dramatically, and when people say "hey, that's not sound policy," just call them democrat cry babies. Davis was recalled in CA largely because of a deficit that he fixed before leaving office; will the rest of the country do the same to Bush for an even larger deficit that he doesn't fix?
3. It's also a pretty well-accepted theory that deficits increase interest rates in the long term which is bad for the economy. But again, we're all about short-term, not long-term. Let some democrat cry baby in some future administration fix the mess, like Clinton fixed the mess left by Reagan-Bush fiscal policy. Probably Hillary will have to fix Bush's mess in 2008, if a democrat cry baby loses in 2004.
We acutally have people here saying "My two friends don't have jobs...so don't tell me the economy is getting better". My god...how can you people be serious?
I'm sorry to be "arrogant" about it, as one poster said...but give me a break, folks. Unemployment, Fran, IS IN FACT a lagging indicator. The main measure of the economy is GDP growth. There is simply no argument there. What would YOU measure it with...whether or not you and your friends have jobs? Wow. You can't be serious either!!! Can you?
And once again, I get called out for posting a thread quckily on the topic. Meanwhile, we have six billion anti-Bush threads posted every day.
What a joke you guys can be. The economy is in full blown recovery and your bullshit partisan poltics refuse to let you see it.
Originally posted by SDW2001
What a joke you guys can be. The economy is in full blown recovery and your bullshit partisan poltics refuse to let you see it.
Because Lord knows you're not a joke.
Washington post
Maybe this strong quarter will kick in and employers will decide to begin hiring," Price said. But that's not assured because firms have been able to boost production without having their current employees work longer hours, much less add more workers, he said.
Well I'm glad the GDP is up, I just hope more jobs pop up. Which isn't gaurenteed but they hint at it later that they might.
Treasury Secretary John Snow called the report "very encouraging. . . . It shows we are getting on the right path with the economy." However, Snow noted that "job creation has yet to take hold," although he added that recent declines in initial claims for unemployment benefits and hiring by temporary help agencies are "signs the labor market is starting to improve."
I wouldn't call that a "Full blown recovery," but yes it's getting there, and yes Bush's tax cuts did help some.
If gov't spending was reduced along with tax cuts, i.e., if the tax cuts were sustainable, that would be different. But aren't we just like a family who runs up credit card debt and then says "hey, our economic situation has really improved! Look at this new car we have!"
Again, I'm not entirely convinced that the tax cuts are really key here. But certainly that will be the re-election line. And if it is the line, isn't there an inherent hollowness to the argument?
but president bush isn't even saying it's a full blown recovery, i believe he says we're on the right path. but he also said not to expect that kind of growth next quarter.
to take take one economic indicator (albeit a broad one, but sorry not the definitive one) from one quarter and announce to the world that the u.s. economy is fully recovered, is incorrect.
calling it a economic "boom" is laughable and shows where your head is.
Originally posted by SDW2001
The economy is in full blown recovery and your bullshit partisan poltics refuse to let you see it.
Full blown recovery? Do you really believe this or do you just not know what you're talking about?
Originally posted by BRussell
wouldn't it be a kind of false recovery if it's really based on these tax cuts?
Not a false one, just not sustainable. The tax cuts spurred corporate spending at a point when a boost was needed, but the biggest portion of the GDP growth came from the increase in military spending. We''ll pay for it later.
Again, I'm not saying that GDP growth isn't a good thing...its just that its not the only thing.
i didn't say unchecked deficit spending, but deficit spending in general, i think the nineties proved that a good economy, with changes in government spending practices can turn a deficit around quicker than many think.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
i'd also add that there is nothing wrong with deficit spending, not only in times of national emergencies, but to spur on the economy.
i didn't say unchecked deficit spending, but deficit spending in general, i think the nineties proved that a good economy, with changes in government spending practices can turn a deficit around quicker than many think.
In agreement 1,000%
Fellowship
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Full blown recovery? Do you really believe this or do you just not know what you're talking about?
Not a false one, just not sustainable. The tax cuts spurred corporate spending at a point when a boost was needed, but the biggest portion of the GDP growth came from the increase in military spending. We''ll pay for it later.
Again, I'm not saying that GDP growth isn't a good thing...its just that its not the only thing.
Yes, I do believe it. Look at the data and tell me otherwise. We have historically low and dropping unemployment. We have a booming market for the year. We have bigtime GDP growth. Shall I continue?
Originally posted by SDW2001
Yes, I do believe it. Look at the data and tell me otherwise. We have historically low and dropping unemployment. We have a booming market for the year. We have bigtime GDP growth. Shall I continue?
i think we've had a market that has gone from being undervalued to slightly overvalued, it's a bull market not a boom market. when corporate profits show some sustained black ink for more than a couple of quarters you can call it a boom market. you have to have a sustained bull market followed by corporate profits to be a boom.
but even if it was a boom market, a boom market does not make it a boom economy.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
i think we've had a market that has gone from being undervalued to slightly overvalued, it's a bull market not a boom market. when corporate profits show some sustained black ink for more than a couple of quarters you can call it a boom market. you have to have a sustained bull market followed by corporate profits to be a boom.
but even if it was a boom market, a boom market does not make it a boom economy.
I agree with this. I think it is good that we all see data in different ways. Some thought SDW overstated the latest data and that is fine. SDW stands by his view and that is fine. Hey,,, we are all part of the picture in one way or another when you really think about it. Sure we all want job growth and sustainable growth year over year. Honestly I think there are so many variables that this can be tricky but none the less a worthy goal. In the real world things go up and they go down just look at stock values and stock market composite indexes. I like to consider all opinions given concerning the situation we call life.
cheers
Fellows
i understand the need of anyone who's a supporter of the current administration to hype these figures, they could use some good news, it been a "hard slog'* on so many fronts for them lately.
*sorry couldn't resist.
Originally posted by SDW2001
Yes, I do believe it. Look at the data and tell me otherwise.
The only places I have seen this growth described as a 'boom' or a 'full blown recovery' are here (by you) and on Drudge. I've looked at the data and it is a start...but we are still some way from having recovered from the recession.
Originally posted by SDW2001
We have historically low and dropping unemployment.
6.1% is historically low? Can you provide a source which shows that unemployment is dropping?
We have historically low and dropping unemployment.
SDW have to realize that there has been a net loss of jobs for the first time in 70 years, and the true sign of economic recovery will be when those jobs are recovered. Almost 50,000 people lost their jobs last quarter. How is that dropping unemployment?
Record Federal Spending and record deficits have pushed the GDP up, but it's not going to keep up like this. If the record spending continues, there's either going to be tax hikes or money taken from Medicare and Social Security. Sacrificing Medicare and Social Security to give the economy a push is a bad trade off, especially for older Americans. After all, many older people have already had to accept 'early retirement' or were just laid off entirely and can't get another job.
The real reason that the GDP is so high is that we're right in the middle of two wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. We are spending a record amount of money, already a much more significant amount over what was spent in the first Gulf War. So in the last 20 years, there hasn't been this type of federal spending on the military.
Also remember that a ton of money is going to rebuilding Iraq (and to a much lesser extent, Afghanistan). The money might be going to American companies, but it's not creating new jobs here, it's creating new jobs there. With such a significant portion of our money going overseas, it's more unlikely that you're going to see a big increase in jobs in the next 6 months here, and most certainly not by the holidays.
Finally, you can call me partisan. You can say my points are 'a joke'. But I do question this administration because it hasn't given me anything to give me faith in them. They failed to keep their promises to NYC after 9/11, they misled the public about WOMD in Iraq when making the case for war, they lied in the State of the Union about enriched Uranium from Niger even though they knew it was false beforehand, they tried to pin the blame on the Navy for 'Mission Accomplished', there has been a net loss of jobs in the US since he took office (for the first time since the Depression), there is a record deficit, record federal spending, poor foreign relations that has most of the world upset with us, and most of all, they continue to lie to us about the War on Terror by trying to make a tie between Iraq and Al Qaeda (when Bin Laden himself called Saddam an infidel), and they continue to try and make a tie between Iraq and 9/11 (when no Iraqis were involved in the attack).
My point is that the Administration has a horrible track record and unless we start to see tangible improvements, 'lagging indicator' or not, I'm going to remain skeptical.
Originally posted by sCreeD
Yep, consumers spent more; businesses spent more...
Yeah, um soooooo what happened to those millions of jobs? China, huh? India, ay?
Yes nothing fluffs the coffers more then outsourcing. Once those costly American workers have been replaced the company can spend freely elsewhere.
Recovering yes; not recovered.
Boom? Hardly... in fact, not at all.
Screed
Up down it doesn't matter. Manufacturing has been leaving the country since WW2. Nothing's going to stop it and you can't blame Bush or Clinton or Bush or Reagan or Carter...
Just reality.