The difference being no one has to lower themselves to being in a fundamentalist religion, meanwhile no one chooses their sexuality. And unlike them, I don't go around trying to undermine their equality and civil rights.
Well, referring to Southern Baptists as non-human wouldn't seem to be doing much for their equality and civil rights.
They already have full equality and full civil rights, and use that position of privilege as a pedestal from which to fight against equality for me and mine. Just look at the Constitutional Amendment that the fundamentalists and their puppets in the GOP are pushing. The moment you see gays trying to amend the Constitution to permanently reduce fanatical Christians to second-class citizen status, then you can talk about unequal treatment for Baptists and their ilk.
They already have full equality and full civil rights, and use that position of privilege as a pedestal from which to fight against equality for me and mine. Just look at the Constitutional Amendment that the fundamentalists and their puppets in the GOP are pushing. The moment you see gays trying to amend the Constitution to permanently reduce fanatical Christians to second-class citizen status, then you can talk about unequal treatment for Baptists and their ilk.
I agree with you that far too many are hostile to your lifestyle. But what I will say is that when you go around being the horses a** you are no better than those you abhor.
Being gay is not a lifestyle anymore than it's a preference or a choice.
No problem dude. I just wanted to give you my two cents and suggest that if you ever care to be a good spokesperson for your view of your sexuality and rights to marriage etc. that you take a more thoughtful and articulate approach to do such.
As you have done so far accomplishes nothing but a further divide. When you make ignorant statements that says that you choose to be ignorant or that you will modify your method. You have chosen not to retract your insults and I merely suggest that is not going to get you anywhere in the long haul.
Yes, I live in Dallas (for now, sadly). I work at Southern Methodist University, and will graduate from there next December. I am then hoping to move the hell out of this town to get to a place with a far lower Southern Baptists-To-Human ratio.
Never been to Uncle Julios. I will miss the Burger House, Kuby's, Kirby's Steakhouse, JR's, Amoré's and S&D Oyster Bar.
Dude, you must go to Julios. The one on Cedar Springs (if I remember the street right) is my old favorite. Anything is good, but I recommend the fajitas or the sour cream enchilladas. Whatever you get, make sure the dinner comes with the free tortillas (their baked fresh) and ask for a bowl of mexican butter to dip them in.
I hated mexican food until I came across Julios. Ate their 350 times and never once had bad food or bad service. They rock.
Also, I don't know the PC way to say this but the Cedar Springs resturaunt is in a particularly gay area of town. Maybe you could invite fellowship for a dinner conversation on your "turf".
I think your totally justified to take offense to any suggestions that you are electing a "lifestyle," but Fellowship always seems to be painfully civil if sometimes pedantic and I suspect his word selections are not necessarily meant to be slights.
P.S. If you are worried about me and Fellowship working together to "Gang Save" you, just look through some of my old posts and you will find that Fellowship and I are of distinctly different philosophies.
I think your totally justified to take offense to any suggestions that you are electing a "lifestyle," but Fellowship always seems to be painfully civil if sometimes pedantic and I suspect his word selections are not necessarily meant to be slights.
There is nothing wrong to be civil. It's the only way to discuss here in AO, without letting things to degenerate quickly in name callings, insults and flame war
There is nothing wrong to be civil. It's the only way to discuss here in AO, without letting things to degenerate quickly in name callings, insults and flame war
Dude, you must go to Julios. The one on Cedar Springs (if I remember the street right) is my old favorite.
Wait, yes, then I've been there.. My favorite Mexican food is at Casita Dominguez off of 75 and Loop 12 behind Half Priced Books.
Quote:
I think your totally justified to take offense to any suggestions that you are electing a "lifestyle," but Fellowship always seems to be painfully civil if sometimes pedantic and I suspect his word selections are not necessarily meant to be slights.
He uses the language of the religious oppressors: "preference," "lifestyle." This is the language used by those who hate gays in their campaigns to forever render homosexuals second-class citizens. It is carefully designed to make homosexuality appear to be a choice, to be transient, to be morally inferior to heterosexuality. It is, therefore, language I'm very attune to hearing, since I live in this fundamentalist-infested cultural wasteland called Texas.
Quote:
P.S. If you are worried about me and Fellowship working together to "Gang Save" you, just look through some of my old posts and you will find that Fellowship and I are of distinctly different philosophies. [/B]
Why would I worry about that? 1) I am too intelligent to be "saved" by anyone. 2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
He uses the language of the religious oppressors: "preference," "lifestyle." This is the language used by those who hate gays in their campaigns to forever render homosexuals second-class citizens. It is carefully designed to make homosexuality appear to be a choice, to be transient, to be morally inferior to heterosexuality. It is, therefore, language I'm very attune to hearing, since I live in this fundamentalist-infested cultural wasteland called Texas.
Why would I worry about that? 1) I am too intelligent to be "saved" by anyone. 2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
Kirkland,
Fellowship was trying to do you a favor. Instead you sound like a conspiracy theorist at best and a member of the oppressive thought police you claim to abhor at the worst.
I call it a lifestyle, and I have a gay aunt, uncle and support civil unions. The nature vs. nurture argument is alive and well in numerous circles and no one has to somehow cede an answer to you regarding it just because you don't like their worldview.
If you won't get off your high horse, don't be surprised when someone is no longer polite and knocks you off.
Wait, yes, then I've been there.. My favorite Mexican food is at Casita Dominguez off of 75 and Loop 12 behind Half Priced Books.
He uses the language of the religious oppressors: "preference," "lifestyle." This is the language used by those who hate gays in their campaigns to forever render homosexuals second-class citizens. It is carefully designed to make homosexuality appear to be a choice, to be transient, to be morally inferior to heterosexuality. It is, therefore, language I'm very attune to hearing, since I live in this fundamentalist-infested cultural wasteland called Texas.
Why would I worry about that? 1) I am too intelligent to be "saved" by anyone. 2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
I am not trying to save you Kirkland. I do not disrespect you in any way.
I am sorry if I used the wrong words. I did not mean to insult you.
2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
Huh? How could you possibly get that I'm a religious fanatic from me explicity pointing out that Fellowship and I are of distinctly different philosophies? Obviously, you did not do as I suggested and look through my old posts or you would discover that I'm a pro-mind, agnostic, evolutionary biologist who supports gay rights and seperation of church and state. I was simply (and quite clearly) pointing out that I'm not a shill for Fellowship.
I am starting to side with Fellowship, however, in thinking you're a little too quick to rush to judgement and condemn. Your indignation at the religious right is spot on, but you're way too loose with your labels.
Taken from another thread where I say the following:
Quote:
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I understand your post completely. I believe what would be ideal for people to do is to live their life based on beliefs that are important to them. The message of Jesus should not be something that is presented in a marketing scheme that will turn off people. I think people will come to their own conclusions with options presented to them as they live their lives. Door to door is a bit wrong in my opinion. Moral complaining by some on television the likes of Dr. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries and Jerry Falwell of Jerry Falwell Ministries do a measurable bit of damage to the message of Jesus. That said not all on television are such. Two of my favorites are Dr. David Jeremiah and Dr. Michael Youssef. If you watch these thoughtful gentlemen you will be changed by their gift to speak the message of Jesus.
I realize that different Churches have different levels of education level. I enjoy Fellowship Church as it is centered in a very highly educated high income multifaceted society in North Texas. I have seen and visited Churches that quite frankly come across to me as very off message and more engaged in politics. This disturbs me and I believe it to be a mistake and wrong. Jesus does not care our income / education level but for understanding of the word of God there is no better place to tun than the Bible itself. If one can find a gifted teacher like those I mention above lives can be changed and hearts transformed.
Peace,
Fellows
My point is that as a Christian I am turned off by those who cry over the "morality" of others. These people do nothing for me.
Jesus Himself said not to judge others. We have enough to deal with with ourselves I believe.
Fellowship was trying to do you a favor. Instead you sound like a conspiracy theorist at best and a member of the oppressive thought police you claim to abhor at the worst.
I call it a lifestyle, and I have a gay aunt, uncle and support civil unions. The nature vs. nurture argument is alive and well in numerous circles and no one has to somehow cede an answer to you regarding it just because you don't like their worldview.
There is no reputable theory which purports that sexuality is in any way a choice. Whether it's genetic, environmental, both or something else, it's not a choice, and that's all that matters. It is also not a preference, nor a lifestyle.
Heh, just another reason why I loathe this state. I hate hate hate horses. Filthy, disgusting animals. Horses, football and religious fundamentalists, the three worst things about Texas.
Heh, just another reason why I loathe this state. I hate hate hate horses. Filthy, disgusting animals. Horses, football and religious fundamentalists, the three worst things about Texas.
Kirk
I don't know why you put yourself through the "hell" of living in Texas if it is as bad as you say it is. Why not go to where ever it is that you find acceptable.
No I am not telling you to leave as that would be hateful, rude and ignorant. I feel you are always welcome in Dallas.
It is just that you come across as a miserable human being. I hope you manage to find a balance of happiness in your life.
There is no reputable theory which purports that sexuality is in any way a choice. Whether it's genetic, environmental, both or something else, it's not a choice, and that's all that matters. It is also not a preference, nor a lifestyle.
Heh, just another reason why I loathe this state. I hate hate hate horses. Filthy, disgusting animals. Horses, football and religious fundamentalists, the three worst things about Texas.
Kirk
I'll gladly read any studies you care to post. The last one I read that was pro on the issue was a twin study and had less than 40% of the identical twins also living as homosexuals. This despite the sample being recruited through a magazine catering to homosexuals.
The issue you bring up is much broader than the politically correct context in which you seek to frame it. It is genetic determinism vs. free will, and I assure you it is no where near settled.
You do not own the English language. Likewise there are stereotypes, contributed to by homosexuals themselves as well that are not genetic. Those aspects are a lifestyle.
A person is not black as a lifestyle. However dressing up in baggy clothes, calling yourself a "player" is not genetic.
It's settled if you talk to the only people who can tell you conclusively whether or not being gay is a choice: gay people. We know that being gay isn't a choice, because we know we didn't choose it. Period. End of story.
You do not own the English language. Likewise there are stereotypes, contributed to by homosexuals themselves as well that are not genetic. Those aspects are a lifestyle.
But they are not universally applicable. Bigots who talk about "the gay lifestyle" lump all gays into one group and presume that we all dress, think and act alike, that we all have the same tastes, that we're a monochromatic group with know hues or tints. It's bullshit. I hate dancing, my pseudo-boyfriend actually likes sports. It's a diverse and multifaceted group. Since gays are found literally everywhere in every walk of life, the only point to lumping us all into one with terms like "lifestyle" is to make us easier to persecute, hunt down and destroy. Which is, in the end, the ultimate goal of the anti-gay movement.
Comments
Originally posted by Kirkland
The difference being no one has to lower themselves to being in a fundamentalist religion, meanwhile no one chooses their sexuality. And unlike them, I don't go around trying to undermine their equality and civil rights.
Well, referring to Southern Baptists as non-human wouldn't seem to be doing much for their equality and civil rights.
Originally posted by Kirkland
They already have full equality and full civil rights, and use that position of privilege as a pedestal from which to fight against equality for me and mine. Just look at the Constitutional Amendment that the fundamentalists and their puppets in the GOP are pushing. The moment you see gays trying to amend the Constitution to permanently reduce fanatical Christians to second-class citizen status, then you can talk about unequal treatment for Baptists and their ilk.
I agree with you that far too many are hostile to your lifestyle. But what I will say is that when you go around being the horses a** you are no better than those you abhor.
Learn to leap above the fray and lead.
Don't take the lazy road and insult people.
With all due respect,
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I agree with you that far too many are hostile to your lifestyle.
Being gay is not a lifestyle anymore than it's a preference or a choice.
Originally posted by Kirkland
Being gay is not a lifestyle anymore than it's a preference or a choice.
No problem dude. I just wanted to give you my two cents and suggest that if you ever care to be a good spokesperson for your view of your sexuality and rights to marriage etc. that you take a more thoughtful and articulate approach to do such.
As you have done so far accomplishes nothing but a further divide. When you make ignorant statements that says that you choose to be ignorant or that you will modify your method. You have chosen not to retract your insults and I merely suggest that is not going to get you anywhere in the long haul.
With all due respect,
Fellowship
Originally posted by Kirkland
Yes, I live in Dallas (for now, sadly). I work at Southern Methodist University, and will graduate from there next December. I am then hoping to move the hell out of this town to get to a place with a far lower Southern Baptists-To-Human ratio.
Never been to Uncle Julios. I will miss the Burger House, Kuby's, Kirby's Steakhouse, JR's, Amoré's and S&D Oyster Bar.
Dude, you must go to Julios. The one on Cedar Springs (if I remember the street right) is my old favorite. Anything is good, but I recommend the fajitas or the sour cream enchilladas. Whatever you get, make sure the dinner comes with the free tortillas (their baked fresh) and ask for a bowl of mexican butter to dip them in.
I hated mexican food until I came across Julios. Ate their 350 times and never once had bad food or bad service. They rock.
Also, I don't know the PC way to say this but the Cedar Springs resturaunt is in a particularly gay area of town. Maybe you could invite fellowship for a dinner conversation on your "turf".
I think your totally justified to take offense to any suggestions that you are electing a "lifestyle," but Fellowship always seems to be painfully civil if sometimes pedantic and I suspect his word selections are not necessarily meant to be slights.
P.S. If you are worried about me and Fellowship working together to "Gang Save" you, just look through some of my old posts and you will find that Fellowship and I are of distinctly different philosophies.
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
I think your totally justified to take offense to any suggestions that you are electing a "lifestyle," but Fellowship always seems to be painfully civil if sometimes pedantic and I suspect his word selections are not necessarily meant to be slights.
There is nothing wrong to be civil. It's the only way to discuss here in AO, without letting things to degenerate quickly in name callings, insults and flame war
Originally posted by Powerdoc
There is nothing wrong to be civil. It's the only way to discuss here in AO, without letting things to degenerate quickly in name callings, insults and flame war
Powerdoc for President
If ever there was a civil person it is Powerdoc.
Can we start a "Germans are fat and dumb" thread now?
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...threadid=33760
Halfway there!
Originally posted by Nordstrodamus
Dude, you must go to Julios. The one on Cedar Springs (if I remember the street right) is my old favorite.
Wait, yes, then I've been there.. My favorite Mexican food is at Casita Dominguez off of 75 and Loop 12 behind Half Priced Books.
I think your totally justified to take offense to any suggestions that you are electing a "lifestyle," but Fellowship always seems to be painfully civil if sometimes pedantic and I suspect his word selections are not necessarily meant to be slights.
He uses the language of the religious oppressors: "preference," "lifestyle." This is the language used by those who hate gays in their campaigns to forever render homosexuals second-class citizens. It is carefully designed to make homosexuality appear to be a choice, to be transient, to be morally inferior to heterosexuality. It is, therefore, language I'm very attune to hearing, since I live in this fundamentalist-infested cultural wasteland called Texas.
P.S. If you are worried about me and Fellowship working together to "Gang Save" you, just look through some of my old posts and you will find that Fellowship and I are of distinctly different philosophies. [/B]
Why would I worry about that? 1) I am too intelligent to be "saved" by anyone. 2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
Originally posted by Kirkland
He uses the language of the religious oppressors: "preference," "lifestyle." This is the language used by those who hate gays in their campaigns to forever render homosexuals second-class citizens. It is carefully designed to make homosexuality appear to be a choice, to be transient, to be morally inferior to heterosexuality. It is, therefore, language I'm very attune to hearing, since I live in this fundamentalist-infested cultural wasteland called Texas.
Why would I worry about that? 1) I am too intelligent to be "saved" by anyone. 2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
Kirkland,
Fellowship was trying to do you a favor. Instead you sound like a conspiracy theorist at best and a member of the oppressive thought police you claim to abhor at the worst.
I call it a lifestyle, and I have a gay aunt, uncle and support civil unions. The nature vs. nurture argument is alive and well in numerous circles and no one has to somehow cede an answer to you regarding it just because you don't like their worldview.
If you won't get off your high horse, don't be surprised when someone is no longer polite and knocks you off.
I put that in "Texan" just for you.
Nick
Originally posted by Kirkland
Wait, yes, then I've been there.. My favorite Mexican food is at Casita Dominguez off of 75 and Loop 12 behind Half Priced Books.
He uses the language of the religious oppressors: "preference," "lifestyle." This is the language used by those who hate gays in their campaigns to forever render homosexuals second-class citizens. It is carefully designed to make homosexuality appear to be a choice, to be transient, to be morally inferior to heterosexuality. It is, therefore, language I'm very attune to hearing, since I live in this fundamentalist-infested cultural wasteland called Texas.
Why would I worry about that? 1) I am too intelligent to be "saved" by anyone. 2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
I am not trying to save you Kirkland. I do not disrespect you in any way.
I am sorry if I used the wrong words. I did not mean to insult you.
Fellowship
Originally posted by Kirkland
2) I had no idea you were also a religious fanatic until this post.
Huh? How could you possibly get that I'm a religious fanatic from me explicity pointing out that Fellowship and I are of distinctly different philosophies? Obviously, you did not do as I suggested and look through my old posts or you would discover that I'm a pro-mind, agnostic, evolutionary biologist who supports gay rights and seperation of church and state. I was simply (and quite clearly) pointing out that I'm not a shill for Fellowship.
I am starting to side with Fellowship, however, in thinking you're a little too quick to rush to judgement and condemn. Your indignation at the religious right is spot on, but you're way too loose with your labels.
Me, a religious fanatic?
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I understand your post completely. I believe what would be ideal for people to do is to live their life based on beliefs that are important to them. The message of Jesus should not be something that is presented in a marketing scheme that will turn off people. I think people will come to their own conclusions with options presented to them as they live their lives. Door to door is a bit wrong in my opinion. Moral complaining by some on television the likes of Dr. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries and Jerry Falwell of Jerry Falwell Ministries do a measurable bit of damage to the message of Jesus. That said not all on television are such. Two of my favorites are Dr. David Jeremiah and Dr. Michael Youssef. If you watch these thoughtful gentlemen you will be changed by their gift to speak the message of Jesus.
I realize that different Churches have different levels of education level. I enjoy Fellowship Church as it is centered in a very highly educated high income multifaceted society in North Texas. I have seen and visited Churches that quite frankly come across to me as very off message and more engaged in politics. This disturbs me and I believe it to be a mistake and wrong. Jesus does not care our income / education level but for understanding of the word of God there is no better place to tun than the Bible itself. If one can find a gifted teacher like those I mention above lives can be changed and hearts transformed.
Peace,
Fellows
My point is that as a Christian I am turned off by those who cry over the "morality" of others. These people do nothing for me.
Jesus Himself said not to judge others. We have enough to deal with with ourselves I believe.
I am not a bigot and I am a Christian.
Fellowship
Originally posted by trumptman
Fellowship was trying to do you a favor. Instead you sound like a conspiracy theorist at best and a member of the oppressive thought police you claim to abhor at the worst.
I call it a lifestyle, and I have a gay aunt, uncle and support civil unions. The nature vs. nurture argument is alive and well in numerous circles and no one has to somehow cede an answer to you regarding it just because you don't like their worldview.
There is no reputable theory which purports that sexuality is in any way a choice. Whether it's genetic, environmental, both or something else, it's not a choice, and that's all that matters. It is also not a preference, nor a lifestyle.
Kirk
Originally posted by Kirkland
Heh, just another reason why I loathe this state. I hate hate hate horses. Filthy, disgusting animals. Horses, football and religious fundamentalists, the three worst things about Texas.
Kirk
Holy crap you are gay!
This is only a joke. Don't go Waco on me.
Originally posted by Kirkland
Heh, just another reason why I loathe this state. I hate hate hate horses. Filthy, disgusting animals. Horses, football and religious fundamentalists, the three worst things about Texas.
Kirk
I don't know why you put yourself through the "hell" of living in Texas if it is as bad as you say it is. Why not go to where ever it is that you find acceptable.
No I am not telling you to leave as that would be hateful, rude and ignorant. I feel you are always welcome in Dallas.
It is just that you come across as a miserable human being. I hope you manage to find a balance of happiness in your life.
Good Luck
Fellowship
Originally posted by Kirkland
There is no reputable theory which purports that sexuality is in any way a choice. Whether it's genetic, environmental, both or something else, it's not a choice, and that's all that matters. It is also not a preference, nor a lifestyle.
Heh, just another reason why I loathe this state. I hate hate hate horses. Filthy, disgusting animals. Horses, football and religious fundamentalists, the three worst things about Texas.
Kirk
I'll gladly read any studies you care to post. The last one I read that was pro on the issue was a twin study and had less than 40% of the identical twins also living as homosexuals. This despite the sample being recruited through a magazine catering to homosexuals.
The issue you bring up is much broader than the politically correct context in which you seek to frame it. It is genetic determinism vs. free will, and I assure you it is no where near settled.
You do not own the English language. Likewise there are stereotypes, contributed to by homosexuals themselves as well that are not genetic. Those aspects are a lifestyle.
A person is not black as a lifestyle. However dressing up in baggy clothes, calling yourself a "player" is not genetic.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
You do not own the English language. Likewise there are stereotypes, contributed to by homosexuals themselves as well that are not genetic. Those aspects are a lifestyle.
But they are not universally applicable. Bigots who talk about "the gay lifestyle" lump all gays into one group and presume that we all dress, think and act alike, that we all have the same tastes, that we're a monochromatic group with know hues or tints. It's bullshit. I hate dancing, my pseudo-boyfriend actually likes sports. It's a diverse and multifaceted group. Since gays are found literally everywhere in every walk of life, the only point to lumping us all into one with terms like "lifestyle" is to make us easier to persecute, hunt down and destroy. Which is, in the end, the ultimate goal of the anti-gay movement.