When I clicked on this thread, I thought I was going to be reading about how Panther destroyed your firewire hard drive and the data you would have made a cool million on. This was truly false advertising. I've never had the problem, so I can't really relate. But unless it's happening at an alarming frequency, I can't imagine it's a very big deal.
Come on, that's why this is here: it IS a problem. Not for you, but for SOMEONE ELSE ! I would read it anyway, as this may happen to you.
You not on crak are you? heh..What I mean't is that if you pay attention to other's problems, then you will learn from their experience.
Not trying to make light of people's problems, but when someone notes that they have multiple bombing apps on a regular basis... it's either one of two things:
A) The developer of the application made a shitty product.
The OS / apps were not installed properly and or the permissions are screwed up. Basically: the user has done something that ended up causing them grief later on, but they blame it on Apple.
I've run OS X on four different types of machines in the last 3 years and I still (including Panther) can count all of my forced restarts on one hand. And I run all kinds of 3rd party apps, utilities, and haxies.
There is simply no substitute for installing the OS on a clean partition, creating your account then fixing permissions, THEN installing your apps one by one without running lots of other crap in the background.
Perhaps the problems noted here are just a case of misfortune / bad software combinations, but most threads like this can invariably be traced back to user error.... especially where OS X on relatively new hardware is concerned.
1)Hopefully you didn't read this, yet
2)I don't recall anyone mentioning force restarting...I can do the same also...not counting Panther DP
3)Do you really expect me to install apps one by one without stuff running in the background? I'm confused because I thought OS X was supposed to be good at multitasking... I've found it to be but apparently you don't use it.
4)It's not a big problem and I can't say it's an epidemic but it definately isn't just me and it is in numbers enough to ask questions. I am not really saying it is OS X's fault, it could be the programmers of the applications...but the way to fix it with the disc image trick makes me think it's OS X.
5)Refer to 1
<no need for this without point 1>
You have to admit it's shady that the disc image trick makes programs work no?
Not trying to make light of people's problems, but when someone notes that they have multiple bombing apps on a regular basis... it's either one of two things:
A) The developer of the application made a shitty product.
The OS / apps were not installed properly and or the permissions are screwed up. Basically: the user has done something that ended up causing them grief later on, but they blame it on Apple.
I've run OS X on four different types of machines in the last 3 years and I still (including Panther) can count all of my forced restarts on one hand. And I run all kinds of 3rd party apps, utilities, and haxies.
There is simply no substitute for installing the OS on a clean partition, creating your account then fixing permissions, THEN installing your apps one by one without running lots of other crap in the background.
Perhaps the problems noted here are just a case of misfortune / bad software combinations, but most threads like this can invariably be traced back to user error.... especially where OS X on relatively new hardware is concerned.
I would agree that in the past, running a clean and lean machine is the best way to avoid problems - I don't believe in tinkering with systems.
But not with Panther. Panther isn't clean or lean in the first place - it appears (to a user) to be a very complex OS, that just doesn't work in some respects.
For instance, you format the hard disk using Disk Utility, then you install a fresh copy of Panther. I don't personally install any of the optional extras. You restart the machine and create a fresh user account, and then you open up the Address Book, and it immediately hangs the machine. You can't even bring up the force quit dialog. You'll note that I haven't installed any apps yet, or fonts, printer drivers, additional memory/PCI cards or anything. I've just strated up the machine for the first time. It doesn't get much cleaner than that. The systems barely 15 minutes old, and the first app I've clicked on has hung the machine.
Now I'd be the first to admit C.S.O., and the first to agree that it's probably user error - but I just don't see how it can be... where can I possibly be going wrong? Perhaps I'm pressing the mouse button too hard?
I've run various flavours of OS X (from Public Beta right throught to Panther) on a G4, two Cubes, two Quicksilvers, an iBook, a MDD and two G5s. I never had a single problem with OS X until I installed Panther. I'm not familiar with the OS at a programming level by any means - but I am a seasoned user. Now apps regularly disappear without warning and leave me with the 'submit report' dialog. I've also had a number of the nasty crashes where the dark screen drops down and tells you to manually restart the machine. I've tested both G5s with the hardware test DVDs and they both walk it.
I think of computers as tools - they're a means to an end. I don't have the time to troubleshoot a computer. I accept that troubleshooting computers is part and parcel of using computers on a daily basis - but my point is that I can no longer troubleshoot the Mac's OS. It's not as simple as sitting back and thinking "what have I changed recently", or restarting the machine with the extensions off. The Mac is no longer the computer for the rest of us... it's a computer for UNIX heads.
This is going to sound really bizarre, I'm sure, but... was your Installer CD *pristine*?
I had a problem with a clean newly formatted 10.1 install that was traced to a *TINY* scratch on the CD that caused a corrupt library to be installed. No joke. Everything else worked, but one library kept coming up corrupt after installation. I copied the library out of the package on the CD - corrupt. Copied it from a machine installed from another CD - fine. Physical inspection with a loupe uncovered a single, tiny scratch on the CD... it was the only reason anyone could figure out.
This is going to sound really bizarre, I'm sure, but... was your Installer CD *pristine*?
I had a problem with a clean newly formatted 10.1 install that was traced to a *TINY* scratch on the CD that caused a corrupt library to be installed. No joke. Everything else worked, but one library kept coming up corrupt after installation. I copied the library out of the package on the CD - corrupt. Copied it from a machine installed from another CD - fine. Physical inspection with a loupe uncovered a single, tiny scratch on the CD... it was the only reason anyone could figure out.
And that's also why pirates who download OS X are idiots and deserve problems!
At least use Toast and copy a real CD. Just kidding...buy it! Thank goodness for educational discounts, I'm hoping Santa will bring me a Panther this year.
hmm, I would be surprised that there was nothing in the console logs, or system logs around the time that an app launched, and immediately died. However it does sometimes happen that no crash reporter dialog will appear.
This may happen because the application hasn't got far enough to register itself as being alive with the window server/cps process; and is often related to libraries being missing or corrupted - which is why the use of Cocktail may have been the issue. Forcing a update pre-bind is a dangerous thing.
Messiah - the debugging tricks you needed on Mac OS 9 are different to X, but X is no more difficult. Try and install the developer package and launch the address book via gdb and see the results - sounds like a bug Apple should know about if it happens out of the box.
Comments
Originally posted by Big Mac
When I clicked on this thread, I thought I was going to be reading about how Panther destroyed your firewire hard drive and the data you would have made a cool million on. This was truly false advertising. I've never had the problem, so I can't really relate. But unless it's happening at an alarming frequency, I can't imagine it's a very big deal.
Come on, that's why this is here: it IS a problem. Not for you, but for SOMEONE ELSE ! I would read it anyway, as this may happen to you.
You not on crak are you? heh..What I mean't is that if you pay attention to other's problems, then you will learn from their experience.
-walloo.
Originally posted by Moogs
Computer Superior to Operator.
Not trying to make light of people's problems, but when someone notes that they have multiple bombing apps on a regular basis... it's either one of two things:
A) The developer of the application made a shitty product.
I've run OS X on four different types of machines in the last 3 years and I still (including Panther) can count all of my forced restarts on one hand. And I run all kinds of 3rd party apps, utilities, and haxies.
There is simply no substitute for installing the OS on a clean partition, creating your account then fixing permissions, THEN installing your apps one by one without running lots of other crap in the background.
Perhaps the problems noted here are just a case of misfortune / bad software combinations, but most threads like this can invariably be traced back to user error.... especially where OS X on relatively new hardware is concerned.
1)Hopefully you didn't read this, yet
2)I don't recall anyone mentioning force restarting...I can do the same also...not counting Panther DP
3)Do you really expect me to install apps one by one without stuff running in the background? I'm confused because I thought OS X was supposed to be good at multitasking... I've found it to be but apparently you don't use it.
4)It's not a big problem and I can't say it's an epidemic but it definately isn't just me and it is in numbers enough to ask questions. I am not really saying it is OS X's fault, it could be the programmers of the applications...but the way to fix it with the disc image trick makes me think it's OS X.
5)Refer to 1
<no need for this without point 1>
You have to admit it's shady that the disc image trick makes programs work no?
Originally posted by Moogs
Computer Superior to Operator.
Not trying to make light of people's problems, but when someone notes that they have multiple bombing apps on a regular basis... it's either one of two things:
A) The developer of the application made a shitty product.
I've run OS X on four different types of machines in the last 3 years and I still (including Panther) can count all of my forced restarts on one hand. And I run all kinds of 3rd party apps, utilities, and haxies.
There is simply no substitute for installing the OS on a clean partition, creating your account then fixing permissions, THEN installing your apps one by one without running lots of other crap in the background.
Perhaps the problems noted here are just a case of misfortune / bad software combinations, but most threads like this can invariably be traced back to user error.... especially where OS X on relatively new hardware is concerned.
I would agree that in the past, running a clean and lean machine is the best way to avoid problems - I don't believe in tinkering with systems.
But not with Panther. Panther isn't clean or lean in the first place - it appears (to a user) to be a very complex OS, that just doesn't work in some respects.
For instance, you format the hard disk using Disk Utility, then you install a fresh copy of Panther. I don't personally install any of the optional extras. You restart the machine and create a fresh user account, and then you open up the Address Book, and it immediately hangs the machine. You can't even bring up the force quit dialog. You'll note that I haven't installed any apps yet, or fonts, printer drivers, additional memory/PCI cards or anything. I've just strated up the machine for the first time. It doesn't get much cleaner than that. The systems barely 15 minutes old, and the first app I've clicked on has hung the machine.
Now I'd be the first to admit C.S.O., and the first to agree that it's probably user error - but I just don't see how it can be... where can I possibly be going wrong? Perhaps I'm pressing the mouse button too hard?
I've run various flavours of OS X (from Public Beta right throught to Panther) on a G4, two Cubes, two Quicksilvers, an iBook, a MDD and two G5s. I never had a single problem with OS X until I installed Panther. I'm not familiar with the OS at a programming level by any means - but I am a seasoned user. Now apps regularly disappear without warning and leave me with the 'submit report' dialog. I've also had a number of the nasty crashes where the dark screen drops down and tells you to manually restart the machine. I've tested both G5s with the hardware test DVDs and they both walk it.
I think of computers as tools - they're a means to an end. I don't have the time to troubleshoot a computer. I accept that troubleshooting computers is part and parcel of using computers on a daily basis - but my point is that I can no longer troubleshoot the Mac's OS. It's not as simple as sitting back and thinking "what have I changed recently", or restarting the machine with the extensions off. The Mac is no longer the computer for the rest of us... it's a computer for UNIX heads.
I wouldn't go back to OS 9 (or even 10.2.8). Panther is a fantastic OS, and I can't wait for all the little flaws to be ironed out.
The Address Book I can live without - Expose I can't!
I had a problem with a clean newly formatted 10.1 install that was traced to a *TINY* scratch on the CD that caused a corrupt library to be installed. No joke. Everything else worked, but one library kept coming up corrupt after installation. I copied the library out of the package on the CD - corrupt. Copied it from a machine installed from another CD - fine. Physical inspection with a loupe uncovered a single, tiny scratch on the CD... it was the only reason anyone could figure out.
Originally posted by Kickaha
This is going to sound really bizarre, I'm sure, but... was your Installer CD *pristine*?
I had a problem with a clean newly formatted 10.1 install that was traced to a *TINY* scratch on the CD that caused a corrupt library to be installed. No joke. Everything else worked, but one library kept coming up corrupt after installation. I copied the library out of the package on the CD - corrupt. Copied it from a machine installed from another CD - fine. Physical inspection with a loupe uncovered a single, tiny scratch on the CD... it was the only reason anyone could figure out.
Oh!
At least use Toast and copy a real CD. Just kidding...buy it!
This may happen because the application hasn't got far enough to register itself as being alive with the window server/cps process; and is often related to libraries being missing or corrupted - which is why the use of Cocktail may have been the issue. Forcing a update pre-bind is a dangerous thing.
Messiah - the debugging tricks you needed on Mac OS 9 are different to X, but X is no more difficult. Try and install the developer package and launch the address book via gdb and see the results - sounds like a bug Apple should know about if it happens out of the box.