You know those new fangled "monitors" from Dell use CRTs right? Heh.
Actually I have a Dell branded monitor, and I love it. It's nothing more than a 21" Sony Trinitron monitor with a Dell logo. Bright, crisp, high resolutions with dual video inputs and it cost me $249. </strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Gimme a break people. Dell's monitors are as good as anyone's. They don't even make them they're just rebranded. I have a P991 with a Trinitron tube and it's awesome, much better than most. I just don't get the animosity towards Dell I see on this board.<hr></blockquote>
I have no problem with most of Dell's monitors, but the P992, and the 17" equivalent (don't know the model number) are HORRIBLE. I've listened to the complaints about these monitors, have sent back more than an exceptable number of them, and have found them to be a genuinely cheap POS. You get what you pay for I guess. There's a reason why you're able to get the 19" for only about $50 more than the good 17", and the reason is because the monitor is TERRIBLE.
I have a Princeton Graphics 19" that I love, but they are hard to find now. Was a great deal. Anyways, I just bought a ViewSonic A90 .23mm for $250 shipped for my brother on his 7200/90 (hehe, my old machine). He loves it and they have a good reputation. But it's not black. Here's the link
<strong>Gimme a break people. Dell's monitors are as good as anyone's. They don't even make them they're just rebranded. I have a P991 with a Trinitron tube and it's awesome, much better than most. I just don't get the animosity towards Dell I see on this board. The fact of the matter is that they have the best customer service in the industry (including Apple), and are among the best in reliability. Building your own is always nicest, but if you have to go OEM, Dell is a solid choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's because Michael Dell is insane and takes credit for everything.
We had a short power glitch at my work that knocked out a co-worker's dell monitor. Killed the chargen chip. But dell did replace it with a 19" so it's all good.
I use a Lacie 19" Electron Blue 3. I absolutely love it and have no complaints. I am a graphic designer and have used a good few monitors, IMHO this is the best I have had so far...
We've got a P991 at work and I have to admit it's not bad (although I personally can't stand CRTs). I wouldn't reccomend using it at 1600 x 1200... it hurts.
Dell does nothing but drive down prices in the industry and thereby hurt compeition through innovation.
Dell isn't trying to make a better PC just a cheaper and/or faster PC. Faster does not equal better.
It's like car stereos. I could get a sparkomatic with 40W per channel for $200 or get an Alpine with 20W per channel for $400. The sparko is 'more powerful' but the Alpine has better features. Macs, IMO have better features. I'd be willing to give up a few frames per second for the better features. A person shouldn't have to think too long or hard to figure out the features a brand new Mac (including hardware and software) offers that a brand new Dell does not.
Besides, Apple has always at least *tried* to excel in their products by allowing people to do more with them. Dell just wants to make a cheaper box.
Dell is not a technology company it is a mail order company.
I like to buy my technology from a technology company. If it costs more, fine, at least the money is going towards inventing something new, not just the pocket.
Another thing - about Dell's Support. Did you know they outsource most of it to India to keep costs down? I don't have a problem with India, but I'd rather a person from my country has the job - even if it costs more - just my opinion.
Has Dell ever invented anything? No? Mediocre.
Dell's may enable a person to get something for less, this may be construed as being 'good for the consumer' which it may be - short term. Long term I don't see what good it does to think that commoditizing computers means you have to keep them boring and cheap.
Besides, tech will always reach a point that, unless you cut corners, good stuff can only go so low.
TVs are commodities? But wouldn't you pay a little more for one that looks nice and has good features? Is a 36 inch TV automatically no good just because there is a 42 inch? And if the 36inch is flat is it better than the 42?
Home stereos, same thing. Would you buy a component for you sytem based strictly on price - even if it has the same basic components on the inside? Or would you maybe have a favorite brand that has features you prefer, or that looks nicer? I like for my electronics to look nice while performing a specific function to a certain level of expectation. I don't have to have the biggest TV, or the most powerful stereo or the brightest lamp.
I guess I don't like Dell because they focus on one thing - price. They just don't care about making good computers. They just want to sell a bunch and have marketshare. Any time you read an interview with a Dell employee that is the focus of their thoughts - gaining marketshare. They don't really think about making their computers able to do something (featurewise) that another company can't.
I guess it's just a way of looking at a company's value to its industry, or even to society, and I don't see much value in the mail order company called Dell - other than the fact that you can help their marketshare by saving a few bucks.
I always find it funny when someone talks about Jobs ego. Imagine the ego of a guy who names his company after himself (Dell). If you look at the bio of Steve Jobs on Apple's website and compare it to the bio of Dell on his website, it seems pretty easy to see who has the bigger ego.
So, that's why I have animosity towards Dell. I don't feel the same animosity towards PCs in general - many PC companies try to innovate. Even MS tries to innovate.
Dell just wants to make money by maintaining the status quo and I don't really agree with that business principle. It's diametrically opposed to my own.
Hey, I'm just trying to buy a high quality monitor from any company. Let's not get into computers at this moment...right now I'm just looking for a good monitor.
Dell can give me a monitor for $340 that beats anything else on the market at that price. Shipping is free. Support is very good. It has just as many features as anything else. Why not?
If you can find me a Sony G400 for less than $340 shipped, I'll happily shut up.
[quote]Dell does nothing but drive down prices in the industry and thereby hurt compeition through innovation.<hr></blockquote>Read your Adam Smith. its called capitalism and its something that we are supposed to revere in this country.
[quote]Did you know they outsource most of it to India to keep costs down? I don't have a problem with India, but I'd rather a person from my country has the job - even if it costs more - just my opinion.<hr></blockquote>
Better chuck your Nikes, Levis, hell almost ALL of your clothing, and your Apple computer while you're at it. Remember some Apple's are assembled in Ireland and Taiwan--we won't even talk about where the components that go into them are assembled.
[quote]Dell is not a technology company it is a mail order company.
I like to buy my technology from a technology company. If it costs more, fine, at least the money is going towards inventing something new...<hr></blockquote>
Dell did invent something, or at least ran with a good concept. The Dell on-line store revolutionized how computers are sold. Like it or not everyone copies Dell selling and inventory control methods--which they "borrowed" from Benneton. Apple Store--remember that. And the VP at Apple in charge of mfg is a ex-Dell employee. Dell is big in Enterprise space, they make great server hardware for a great price and their server tech support is pretty much 24/7. Server hardware is better than their somewhat mediocre desktop offerings and desktop tech support--which basically sucks as bad as Apple's tech support does.
If you're going to cry like a baby about Dell, at least make some sense.
If people want to buy Dell products, including Mac Addict, that's fine with me. I'm just stating why I have a certain animosity towards Dell.
You assume too much Cowerd. What makes you think I wear Nikes? I don't. As a matter of fact, I don't buy any clothes that aren't made in the U.S.A. Not that I feel clothes made in malaysia or whatever are of poor quality, it's just that I don't agree with the practice of paying someone a dollar to make a pair of shoes your going to sell for $100.
Most electronics are made in Asia. Its practically inescapable. However, where I can, I try to make decisions which are good my country. I was simply pointing out one of the ways in which Dell cuts costs - through outsourcing their tech support. Not saying its wrong or right. Just pointing it out. Gotta problem with learning something? Not my problem.
Sure, it's capitalism. So what. Our whole society is capitalist. It doesn't mean that I can't disagree with the business philosophy of a certain company.
Dell was selling computers through mail order long before they had their online store (since 1984 I believe).
Sears invented the mail order catalog. Not Dell. Dell just applied it to computers. As you say, the took the idea and ran with it.
And yes, Dell is doing to the server market what they've done to the desktop market. Or at least they're trying to.
Others share my opinion. If you read the right articles in the right publications you'll hear others expound more in depth and intelligently on the issues I've touched on here.
Stop crying like a baby eh? I don't even know where that came from. Since when is a rant "crying like a baby"?
Sheesh. If you can't read a little criticism about a company without telling someone they are "crying like a baby", you need to get out a little more. And how does it work that if one wants to cry like a baby they can make sense at the same time? That's why babies cry because they can't make sense. Your statement doesn't even make sense. Oh well.
I've presented my opinion. Attack it if you like, but it's my opinion and I've presented it as such. Nothing more, nothing less.
Enjoy your monitor MacAddict. Glad you got it so cheap.
Dell does nothing but drive down prices in the industry and thereby hurt compeition through innovation.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So, you're saying that driving down prices is a bad thing? Hmm, I think most folks like paying less for a computer rather than more. That goes for most things in life.
<strong> [quote]
Dell isn't trying to make a better PC just a cheaper and/or faster PC. Faster does not equal better.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you define a "better" PC. When new technologies emerge, Dell incorporates them into their systems without fail. I've already mentioned reliability. Although quality of service across the industry is declining, Dell is still king. Apple used to be right there with them, until they decided there products were so good, they didn't need to stand behind them.
<strong> [quote]
It's like car stereos. I could get a sparkomatic with 40W per channel for $200 or get an Alpine with 20W per channel for $400. The sparko is 'more powerful' but the Alpine has better features. Macs, IMO have better features. I'd be willing to give up a few frames per second for the better features. A person shouldn't have to think too long or hard to figure out the features a brand new Mac (including hardware and software) offers that a brand new Dell does not.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This was not a Mac vs Dell debate. Although I'll be happy to have this conversation with you, it's not what this thread is about.
<strong> [quote]
Besides, Apple has always at least *tried* to excel in their products by allowing people to do more with them. Dell just wants to make a cheaper box.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple does what they do to try and sell computers. So does Dell. You tell me who does a better job in this area.
<strong> [quote]
Another thing - about Dell's Support. Did you know they outsource most of it to India to keep costs down? I don't have a problem with India, but I'd rather a person from my country has the job - even if it costs more - just my opinion.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I agree with this, it's just not the world we live in any longer. I'd like the jobs to be here too, but above all, I want the service to be good. Apple's isn't particularly stellar.
<strong> [quote]
Besides, tech will always reach a point that, unless you cut corners, good stuff can only go so low.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't understand why you keep insinuating that Dell uses cheap components. My mobo is Intel, with a GeForce Card, 3Com modem, etc. These are not crappy components. Dell really cuts its costs using JIT strategies instead of keeping large inventories. I could say more but I've got a meeting
Read your Adam Smith. its called capitalism and its something that we are supposed to revere in this country.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The problem with the wealth of nations (and pure capitalism in general) is it defines "best" in terms of lowest cost, which (especially in the case of computers) is not necessarily a true assumption. It also assumes that competition is the best way to achieve innovation, but Dell provides a good case study for why this isn't true. Rather than creating a "better" product to overwhelm the market place (which is what Adam Smith supposes will happen), Dell merely seeks to create a cheaper product to undercut the competition. The more viable approach that leads to both business and consumer benefit stems from game theory, in which cooperation leads to mutual benefit (anyone who's recently seen the movie A Beautiful Mind will know what I am talking about). An example of this (albeit not the best one) is the AIM alliance. Now, before everyone goes off on how Motorola sucks, it should realized that the PPC initiative has been a boon to all 3 members of the alliance. If we relied on the Adam Smith competition model, we'd still be using 68k processors. The PPC has, over it's full lifetime, been beneficial for IBM, Moto, and Apple.
So, what am I saying? Rethink your assumptions before claiming that pure capitalism is the ultimate way to go. The prosperity of the US is due to a balance of gov't intervention and corporate freedom. Oh, and we are not "supposed" to revere any particular system; we choose what to agree with and not to agree with. That is both the beauty and the essence of the democratic system.
Comments
<strong>
You know those new fangled "monitors" from Dell use CRTs right? Heh.
Actually I have a Dell branded monitor, and I love it. It's nothing more than a 21" Sony Trinitron monitor with a Dell logo. Bright, crisp, high resolutions with dual video inputs and it cost me $249.
Wow. How did you get such a great price?
I have no problem with most of Dell's monitors, but the P992, and the 17" equivalent (don't know the model number) are HORRIBLE. I've listened to the complaints about these monitors, have sent back more than an exceptable number of them, and have found them to be a genuinely cheap POS. You get what you pay for I guess. There's a reason why you're able to get the 19" for only about $50 more than the good 17", and the reason is because the monitor is TERRIBLE.
<a href="http://shop4.outpost.com/product/2608522/"; target="_blank">http://shop4.outpost.com/product/2608522/</a>;
[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: zonetuke ]</p>
<strong>Gimme a break people. Dell's monitors are as good as anyone's. They don't even make them they're just rebranded. I have a P991 with a Trinitron tube and it's awesome, much better than most. I just don't get the animosity towards Dell I see on this board. The fact of the matter is that they have the best customer service in the industry (including Apple), and are among the best in reliability. Building your own is always nicest, but if you have to go OEM, Dell is a solid choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's because Michael Dell is insane and takes credit for everything.
I wouldn't buy from Dell on principle.
1600x1200 doesn't look too great...if you want 1600x1200 on a CRT, you should go with Sony.
And while the P992 is pretty much the same technically (except seems to be problematic, according to Fran), it looks like crap.
I'd love to get a Sony, but a good one seems to cost over $400. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<a href="http://www.lacie.com/news/news.cfm?id=F37D48BD-9AE3-11D5-97E00090278D3ED0"; target="_blank">Lacie Electron Blue 3, 19 and 22 inch...</a>
Marcus
[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Marcus ]</p>
[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Fran441 ]</p>
?Sku=320%2D4107&spagenum=1&category_id=33&ke
yword=&mnf=&prst=0&prEnd=0&mnfsku=&orde rby=&SearchType=&customer_id=19&
Pageb4Searc
h=&page=productlisting%2Easp&icompatid=&instock=0& re
furbished=
Dell says it's flat, which makes sense because it's the Sony Trinitron tube. Are you sure you're not thinking of the M991 or something?
wtf? Why don't UBB let me post that URL?
[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: MacAddict ]</p>
Oh, and it's VERY black
[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: MacAddict ]</p>
Because I'd rather not reward mediocrity.
Dell does nothing but drive down prices in the industry and thereby hurt compeition through innovation.
Dell isn't trying to make a better PC just a cheaper and/or faster PC. Faster does not equal better.
It's like car stereos. I could get a sparkomatic with 40W per channel for $200 or get an Alpine with 20W per channel for $400. The sparko is 'more powerful' but the Alpine has better features. Macs, IMO have better features. I'd be willing to give up a few frames per second for the better features. A person shouldn't have to think too long or hard to figure out the features a brand new Mac (including hardware and software) offers that a brand new Dell does not.
Besides, Apple has always at least *tried* to excel in their products by allowing people to do more with them. Dell just wants to make a cheaper box.
Dell is not a technology company it is a mail order company.
I like to buy my technology from a technology company. If it costs more, fine, at least the money is going towards inventing something new, not just the pocket.
Another thing - about Dell's Support. Did you know they outsource most of it to India to keep costs down? I don't have a problem with India, but I'd rather a person from my country has the job - even if it costs more - just my opinion.
Has Dell ever invented anything? No? Mediocre.
Dell's may enable a person to get something for less, this may be construed as being 'good for the consumer' which it may be - short term. Long term I don't see what good it does to think that commoditizing computers means you have to keep them boring and cheap.
Besides, tech will always reach a point that, unless you cut corners, good stuff can only go so low.
TVs are commodities? But wouldn't you pay a little more for one that looks nice and has good features? Is a 36 inch TV automatically no good just because there is a 42 inch? And if the 36inch is flat is it better than the 42?
Home stereos, same thing. Would you buy a component for you sytem based strictly on price - even if it has the same basic components on the inside? Or would you maybe have a favorite brand that has features you prefer, or that looks nicer? I like for my electronics to look nice while performing a specific function to a certain level of expectation. I don't have to have the biggest TV, or the most powerful stereo or the brightest lamp.
I guess I don't like Dell because they focus on one thing - price. They just don't care about making good computers. They just want to sell a bunch and have marketshare. Any time you read an interview with a Dell employee that is the focus of their thoughts - gaining marketshare. They don't really think about making their computers able to do something (featurewise) that another company can't.
I guess it's just a way of looking at a company's value to its industry, or even to society, and I don't see much value in the mail order company called Dell - other than the fact that you can help their marketshare by saving a few bucks.
I always find it funny when someone talks about Jobs ego. Imagine the ego of a guy who names his company after himself (Dell). If you look at the bio of Steve Jobs on Apple's website and compare it to the bio of Dell on his website, it seems pretty easy to see who has the bigger ego.
So, that's why I have animosity towards Dell. I don't feel the same animosity towards PCs in general - many PC companies try to innovate. Even MS tries to innovate.
Dell just wants to make money by maintaining the status quo and I don't really agree with that business principle. It's diametrically opposed to my own.
/end long rant and get some lunch.
[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: seb ]</p>
Dell can give me a monitor for $340 that beats anything else on the market at that price. Shipping is free. Support is very good. It has just as many features as anything else. Why not?
If you can find me a Sony G400 for less than $340 shipped, I'll happily shut up.
[quote]Did you know they outsource most of it to India to keep costs down? I don't have a problem with India, but I'd rather a person from my country has the job - even if it costs more - just my opinion.<hr></blockquote>
Better chuck your Nikes, Levis, hell almost ALL of your clothing, and your Apple computer while you're at it. Remember some Apple's are assembled in Ireland and Taiwan--we won't even talk about where the components that go into them are assembled.
[quote]Dell is not a technology company it is a mail order company.
I like to buy my technology from a technology company. If it costs more, fine, at least the money is going towards inventing something new...<hr></blockquote>
Dell did invent something, or at least ran with a good concept. The Dell on-line store revolutionized how computers are sold. Like it or not everyone copies Dell selling and inventory control methods--which they "borrowed" from Benneton. Apple Store--remember that. And the VP at Apple in charge of mfg is a ex-Dell employee. Dell is big in Enterprise space, they make great server hardware for a great price and their server tech support is pretty much 24/7. Server hardware is better than their somewhat mediocre desktop offerings and desktop tech support--which basically sucks as bad as Apple's tech support does.
If you're going to cry like a baby about Dell, at least make some sense.
You assume too much Cowerd. What makes you think I wear Nikes? I don't. As a matter of fact, I don't buy any clothes that aren't made in the U.S.A. Not that I feel clothes made in malaysia or whatever are of poor quality, it's just that I don't agree with the practice of paying someone a dollar to make a pair of shoes your going to sell for $100.
Most electronics are made in Asia. Its practically inescapable. However, where I can, I try to make decisions which are good my country. I was simply pointing out one of the ways in which Dell cuts costs - through outsourcing their tech support. Not saying its wrong or right. Just pointing it out. Gotta problem with learning something? Not my problem.
Sure, it's capitalism. So what. Our whole society is capitalist. It doesn't mean that I can't disagree with the business philosophy of a certain company.
Dell was selling computers through mail order long before they had their online store (since 1984 I believe).
Sears invented the mail order catalog. Not Dell. Dell just applied it to computers. As you say, the took the idea and ran with it.
And yes, Dell is doing to the server market what they've done to the desktop market. Or at least they're trying to.
Others share my opinion. If you read the right articles in the right publications you'll hear others expound more in depth and intelligently on the issues I've touched on here.
Stop crying like a baby eh? I don't even know where that came from. Since when is a rant "crying like a baby"?
Sheesh. If you can't read a little criticism about a company without telling someone they are "crying like a baby", you need to get out a little more. And how does it work that if one wants to cry like a baby they can make sense at the same time? That's why babies cry because they can't make sense. Your statement doesn't even make sense. Oh well.
I've presented my opinion. Attack it if you like, but it's my opinion and I've presented it as such. Nothing more, nothing less.
Enjoy your monitor MacAddict. Glad you got it so cheap.
<strong>Why the animosity towards Dell?
Because I'd rather not reward mediocrity.
Dell does nothing but drive down prices in the industry and thereby hurt compeition through innovation.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So, you're saying that driving down prices is a bad thing? Hmm, I think most folks like paying less for a computer rather than more. That goes for most things in life.
<strong> [quote]
Dell isn't trying to make a better PC just a cheaper and/or faster PC. Faster does not equal better.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do you define a "better" PC. When new technologies emerge, Dell incorporates them into their systems without fail. I've already mentioned reliability. Although quality of service across the industry is declining, Dell is still king. Apple used to be right there with them, until they decided there products were so good, they didn't need to stand behind them.
<strong> [quote]
It's like car stereos. I could get a sparkomatic with 40W per channel for $200 or get an Alpine with 20W per channel for $400. The sparko is 'more powerful' but the Alpine has better features. Macs, IMO have better features. I'd be willing to give up a few frames per second for the better features. A person shouldn't have to think too long or hard to figure out the features a brand new Mac (including hardware and software) offers that a brand new Dell does not.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This was not a Mac vs Dell debate. Although I'll be happy to have this conversation with you, it's not what this thread is about.
<strong> [quote]
Besides, Apple has always at least *tried* to excel in their products by allowing people to do more with them. Dell just wants to make a cheaper box.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple does what they do to try and sell computers. So does Dell. You tell me who does a better job in this area.
<strong> [quote]
Another thing - about Dell's Support. Did you know they outsource most of it to India to keep costs down? I don't have a problem with India, but I'd rather a person from my country has the job - even if it costs more - just my opinion.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I agree with this, it's just not the world we live in any longer. I'd like the jobs to be here too, but above all, I want the service to be good. Apple's isn't particularly stellar.
<strong> [quote]
Besides, tech will always reach a point that, unless you cut corners, good stuff can only go so low.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't understand why you keep insinuating that Dell uses cheap components. My mobo is Intel, with a GeForce Card, 3Com modem, etc. These are not crappy components. Dell really cuts its costs using JIT strategies instead of keeping large inventories. I could say more but I've got a meeting
<strong>
Read your Adam Smith. its called capitalism and its something that we are supposed to revere in this country.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The problem with the wealth of nations (and pure capitalism in general) is it defines "best" in terms of lowest cost, which (especially in the case of computers) is not necessarily a true assumption. It also assumes that competition is the best way to achieve innovation, but Dell provides a good case study for why this isn't true. Rather than creating a "better" product to overwhelm the market place (which is what Adam Smith supposes will happen), Dell merely seeks to create a cheaper product to undercut the competition. The more viable approach that leads to both business and consumer benefit stems from game theory, in which cooperation leads to mutual benefit (anyone who's recently seen the movie A Beautiful Mind will know what I am talking about). An example of this (albeit not the best one) is the AIM alliance. Now, before everyone goes off on how Motorola sucks, it should realized that the PPC initiative has been a boon to all 3 members of the alliance. If we relied on the Adam Smith competition model, we'd still be using 68k processors. The PPC has, over it's full lifetime, been beneficial for IBM, Moto, and Apple.
So, what am I saying? Rethink your assumptions before claiming that pure capitalism is the ultimate way to go. The prosperity of the US is due to a balance of gov't intervention and corporate freedom. Oh, and we are not "supposed" to revere any particular system; we choose what to agree with and not to agree with. That is both the beauty and the essence of the democratic system.
(sorry for the rant, felt necessary though)
I returned it...no more cheap monitor for me.
I hope Dell has another 20% off promotion soon.
[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: MacAddict ]</p>
I returned...no more cheap monitor for me.
I hope Dell has another 20% off promotion soon.