Tough New Tactics by U.S. Tighten Grip on Iraq Towns
Tough New Tactics by U.S. Tighten Grip on Iraq Towns.
I didn't expect things to get this bad. I can't understand how anyone can rationalize these actions. Can anyone? I have to imagine there's a better way to handle the situation than this. Any suggestions (other than vote for Clark)?
Quote:
"As the guerrilla war against Iraqi insurgents intensifies, American soldiers have begun wrapping entire villages in barbed wire."
"In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in."
"In Abu Hishma, encased in a razor-wire fence after repeated attacks on American troops, Iraqi civilians line up to go in and out, filing through an American-guarded checkpoint, each carrying an identification card printed in English only."
'"This fence is here for your protection," reads the sign posted in front of the barbed-wire fence. "Do not approach or try to cross, or you will be shot."'
In Abu Hishma, residents complain that the village is locked down for 15 hours a day, meaning that they are unable to go to the mosque for morning and evening prayers. They say the curfew does not allow them time to stand in the daylong lines for gasoline and get home before the gate closes for the night.
"As the guerrilla war against Iraqi insurgents intensifies, American soldiers have begun wrapping entire villages in barbed wire."
"In selective cases, American soldiers are demolishing buildings thought to be used by Iraqi attackers. They have begun imprisoning the relatives of suspected guerrillas, in hopes of pressing the insurgents to turn themselves in."
"In Abu Hishma, encased in a razor-wire fence after repeated attacks on American troops, Iraqi civilians line up to go in and out, filing through an American-guarded checkpoint, each carrying an identification card printed in English only."
'"This fence is here for your protection," reads the sign posted in front of the barbed-wire fence. "Do not approach or try to cross, or you will be shot."'
In Abu Hishma, residents complain that the village is locked down for 15 hours a day, meaning that they are unable to go to the mosque for morning and evening prayers. They say the curfew does not allow them time to stand in the daylong lines for gasoline and get home before the gate closes for the night.
I didn't expect things to get this bad. I can't understand how anyone can rationalize these actions. Can anyone? I have to imagine there's a better way to handle the situation than this. Any suggestions (other than vote for Clark)?
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
I didn't expect things to get this bad. I can't understand how anyone can rationalize these actions. Can anyone? I have to imagine there's a better way to handle the situation than this. Any suggestions (other than vote for Clark)?
Um, don't invade other countries unless you've really planned for the aftermath?
Cheers
Scott
But in the bigger picture it's like what midwinter said: this is what happens when you don't look past the end of your nose.
Now I don't advocate a complete withdrawl from Iraq leaving them to fall apart, but if we're just going to do this to the country what excuse do we have to stay? What excuse is there to not hand the country over to the Iraqis and the U.N.? I don't think France and Russia would be doing this stellar of a crap job.
Originally posted by bunge
Looks like more bad tactics on our part.
Now I don't advocate a complete withdrawl from Iraq leaving them to fall apart, but if we're just going to do this to the country what excuse do we have to stay? What excuse is there to not hand the country over to the Iraqis and the U.N.? I don't think France and Russia would be doing this stellar of a crap job.
Come now bunge. You should be happy now. We are finally getting the proper number of soldier deaths since they are using barbed wire and patrols instead of bunker busters. I remember many a thread where you bemoaned the fact that we were bombing from a mile up instead of doing the work on the ground. Now they are doing the work on the ground, people are dying and you still complain. The timeline for withdrawing is what, June? Why don't you see how many years we stayed in Germany and Europe after WWII.
You're a hypocritical piece of cr@p.
Nick
i think all we're doing in iraq now is changing a western thinking moderate islamic country into a fanatic america hating one.
Don't be so cruel!
Love,
Bunge
PS We've been "on the ground" in Iraq for many months and we've taken some lumps because of it. I haven't complained a bit. Now that we've taken some lumps though, our government and military has changed policy. The new policy we're starting to use because we've taken some lumps is just wrong.
And it's funny you say we're now on the ground when in fact if you read the article I linked you would see that we just bombed a house with a suspected militant and nine children. Bombed a house from one of those fancy new aeroplanes. I guess we'll justify it by saying that since we're converting this country into a radicalized American hating entity, that these nine children would one day have potentially grown up to be terrorists.
I'll coin a new phrase to replace the now outdated "collateral damage." The new phrase is now "preventative maintenance."
Originally posted by bunge
Dear Nicky,
Don't be so cruel!
Love,
Bunge
PS We've been "on the ground" in Iraq for many months and we've taken some lumps because of it. I haven't complained a bit. Now that we've taken some lumps though, our government and military has changed policy. The new policy we're starting to use because we've taken some lumps is just wrong.
And it's funny you say we're now on the ground when in fact if you read the article I linked you would see that we just bombed a house with a suspected militant and nine children. Bombed a house from one of those fancy new aeroplanes. I guess we'll justify it by saying that since we're converting this country into a radicalized American hating entity, that these nine children would one day have potentially grown up to be terrorists.
I'll coin a new phrase to replace the now outdated "collateral damage." The new phrase is now "preventative maintenance."
Oh bunge, you know we only fight so we can make up afterwards.
I did read the second article. That is why I called you hypocritical. If is done from the ground or sky you are full of complaints.
Nick
so we've looked outside the box and found the solution in israel, the one place on earth the united states should definitely stay neutral. (especially during the shoron regime, er i mean administration)
hell, even newt gingrich is saying the administration is screwing up iraq.
Originally posted by trumptman
If is done from the ground or sky you are full of complaints.
Bombing a house with a potential militant while killing nine children = bad. Setting up barbed wire fences around entire towns = bad. I'll gladly support air tactics that increase civilian safety. I'll gladly lambast ground tactics that decrease civilian safety.
One's in the air, the other is on the ground. What's the common denominator? Civilian safety. It's not hypocrisy and calling it such is our beloved straw man.
I think superkaratemonkeydeathcar is right, we need more troops not more violence. Preferably coalition troops. Increasing fascist methods to deal with the problems is more than just a step backwards.
Originally posted by bunge
Bombing a house with a potential militant while killing nine children = bad. Setting up barbed wire fences around entire towns = bad. I'll gladly support air tactics that increase civilian safety. I'll gladly lambast ground tactics that decrease civilian safety.
One's in the air, the other is on the ground. What's the common denominator? Civilian safety. It's not hypocrisy and calling it such is our beloved straw man.
I think superkaratemonkeydeathcar is right, we need more troops not more violence. Preferably coalition troops. Increasing fascist methods to deal with the problems is more than just a step backwards.
It was your contention that we were using air attacks because we were unwilling to risk losing more men on the ground. Now while on the ground we lose more men and take some measures and again you show how all you care about is the ability to criticize.
Likewise you make these places sound like some sort of prison camps, when the reality is that the people can come and go as they please, just through the checkpoint. So you tell me how that is bad since you have labeled it as such.
The Americans embarked on their get-tough strategy in early November, goaded by what proved to be the deadliest month yet for American forces in Iraq, with 81 soldiers killed by hostile fire.
Then this..
In Abu Hishma, encased in a razor-wire fence after repeated attacks on American troops, Iraqi civilians line up to go in and out, filing through an American-guarded checkpoint, each carrying an identification card printed in English only.
"If you have one of these cards, you can come and go," coaxed Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman, the battalion commander whose men oversee the village, about 50 miles north of Baghdad. "If you don't have one of these cards, you can't."
This part is laughable...
But mostly, it is a loss of dignity that the villagers talk about. For each identification card, every Iraqi man is assigned a number, which he must hold up when he poses for his mug shot. The card identifies his age and type of car. It is all in English.
"This is absolutely humiliating," said Yasin Mustafa, a 39-year-old primary school teacher. "We are like birds in a cage."
Oh my god... a picture ID, with a number, that identifies his age and car... sounds like a police state!! More like it sounds like drivers license. If these folks were here in California, you'd be calling people racist for the state not allowing them to go through this "humiliation."
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Oh my god... a picture ID, with a number, that identifies his age and car... sounds like a police state!! More like it sounds like drivers license. If these folks were here in California, you'd be calling people racist for the state not allowing them to go through this "humiliation."
Nick
oh do you have to show your license when you leave your city or cross over to nevada? governor schwarzennegger must be "implementing"
his policy quicker than anticipated.
Originally posted by trumptman
Oh my god... a picture ID, with a number, that identifies his age and car... sounds like a police state!! More like it sounds like drivers license. If these folks were here in California, you'd be calling people racist for the state not allowing them to go through this "humiliation."
Nick
oh do you have to show your license when you leave your city or cross over to nevada? governor schwarzennegger must be "implementing"
his policy quicker than anticipated.
if what is happening now in iraq, was during president bush's second term there would be 300,000 troops on the ground.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
oh do you have to show your license when you leave your city or cross over to nevada? governor schwarzennegger must be "implementing"
his policy quicker than anticipated.
if what is happening now in iraq, was during president bush's second term there would be 300,000 troops on the ground.
No and amazingly enough I don't go around shooting people or assisting them in doing so. Likewise even if I don't have to show it, I had better have it on me. If someone who looked like me participated in a crime and I didn't have any photo ID, I assure you I would be detained and hassled until until they could verify who I was. That isn't a police state.
However in a Democratic state, with a Democratic mayor and Democratic DA, we have court injunctions that don't allow gang members to loiter in the streets, own pagers or cell phones, or be seen with certain "friends" that they hang around with. This is in California, during Davis, in Los Angeles.
We do have driving checkpoints during holidays where there is more likely to be drinking and lawlessness and you do have to drive through them. Finally, I would understand the hassle I would undergo in my town had say 10 people been killed in it by someone that happens to look like me and be around my age.
That is the word. Hassle. We all get hassled in small ways everyday. I think it a hassle that they allocate 20% of the freeway for 4% of the drivers trying to dictate that we should carpool together. Oh.... POLICE STATE!!
I think it a hassle that the Federal government is trying to foist HDTV on us when plenty of people are happy with cheap analog. Police state!!!!
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
No and amazingly enough I don't go around shooting people or assisting them in doing so. Likewise even if I don't have to show it, I had better have it on me. If someone who looked like me participated in a crime and I didn't have any photo ID, I assure you I would be detained and hassled until until they could verify who I was. That isn't a police state.
However in a Democratic state, with a Democratic mayor and Democratic DA, we have court injunctions that don't allow gang members to loiter in the streets, own pagers or cell phones, or be seen with certain "friends" that they hang around with. This is in California, during Davis, in Los Angeles.
We do have driving checkpoints during holidays where there is more likely to be drinking and lawlessness and you do have to drive through them. Finally, I would understand the hassle I would undergo in my town had say 10 people been killed in it by someone that happens to look like me and be around my age.
That is the word. Hassle. We all get hassled in small ways everyday. I think it a hassle that they allocate 20% of the freeway for 4% of the drivers trying to dictate that we should carpool together. Oh.... POLICE STATE!!
I think it a hassle that the Federal government is trying to foist HDTV on us when plenty of people are happy with cheap analog. Police state!!!!
Nick
Your blithe analogies are absurd.
The article at hand describes surrounding a town with razor wire and providing a single point of entrance and exit. Failure to comply will get you shot.
I live in Oakland, CA. There is a fair amount of violent crime. Applying the Iraqi model would involve enclosing, say, west Oakland, a particularly high crime (and largely black) neighborhood with razor wire and shooting anybody who tried to get in or out without "authorized" ID. Of course, this would be justifiable because that's where the "bad guys" are. Add to that the occasional "incursion" that invovles shooting everythng that moves because you're chasing "bad guys", and maybe the odd blowing up a building here and there. Might want to consider bombing known "headquarters" of criminality, and if a few black kids get dismembered, well, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs....
This is what comes of making this a "war", instead of the police action it really is. War has a much lower threshhold for atrocity, war asserts that "we", collectively, are threatened, making almost any level of violence tolerable, war makes inhuman "enemies" out of other people, war puts soldiers where there should be police.
Oh. Wait.
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by addabox
Your blithe analogies are absurd.
The article at hand describes surrounding a town with razor wire and providing a single point of entrance and exit. Failure to comply will get you shot.
I live in Oakland, CA. There is a fair amount of violent crime. Applying the Iraqi model would involve enclosing, say, west Oakland, a particularly high crime (and largely black) neighborhood with razor wire and shooting anybody who tried to get in or out without "authorized" ID. Of course, this would be justifiable because that's where the "bad guys" are. Add to that the occasional "incursion" that invovles shooting everythng that moves because you're chasing "bad guys", and maybe the odd blowing up a building here and there. Might want to consider bombing known "headquarters" of criminality, and if a few black kids get dismembered, well, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs....
This is what comes of making this a "war", instead of the police action it really is. War has a much lower threshhold for atrocity, war asserts that "we", collectively, are threatened, making almost any level of violence tolerable, war makes inhuman "enemies" out of other people, war puts soldiers where there should be police.
Hey Adda, you forgot, how many of the gang bangers downtown are running around with armor piercing surface to air missles and air to air missles?
Actually the issues are much the same only instead of the enemies having the types of weapons I mentioned, they have guns. And when the police break a few eggs, I assure you it is in the news and there are plenty of folks decrying the attrocities white power police state as well.
Likewise when the people being policed raise their level of violence here in the U.S. the level of force for enforcement goes up. Don't try to kid yourself that police act in the same manner when rioting is occuring as when day to day crime is occuring.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Hey Adda, you forgot, how many of the gang bangers downtown are running around with armor piercing surface to air missles and air to air missles?
Actually the issues are much the same only instead of the enemies having the types of weapons I mentioned, they have guns. And when the police break a few eggs, I assure you it is in the news and there are plenty of folks decrying the attrocities white power police state as well.
Likewise when the people being policed raise their level of violence here in the U.S. the level of force for enforcement goes up. Don't try to kid yourself that police act in the same manner when rioting is occuring as when day to day crime is occuring.
Nick
i don't really think west Oakland = Iraq. I'm responding to your notion that the measures being taken in Iraq are benign because we have sobriety check-points in America.
Still , I am slighlty weirded out that you're willing to go with the analogy and apply the logic of occupation to an American city. This sort of thing is usually offered as a critique of police heavy-handedness; however, I get the impression you think of it as an endorsement.
I guess once you become a fan of war it starts looking like the solution to everything.