Affirmative Action Bake Sales

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
Conservative Cookie Comedy



We all know how supportive everyone on this board is regarding the support of satire, and free speech. Especially when it is being used to put the truth across to people.



I wonder how all of you feel about the numerous universities putting a stop to these bake sales that are using satire to make a point.



The sales, when allowed to occur for more than 10 minutes, sell cookies. They sell them to different people for different prices. The more "disadvantaged" or "at-risk" you are because of your gender or skin color, the lower the price. It is meant to provoke discussion about affirmative action being based on factors other than economic need.



Comments, thoughts?



Nick
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 60
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,131member
    These have been popping up everywhere. Even the University of Washington had their little episode recently.



    1. I fully support the right to do this. I don't believe it's racist and it's intentions are to inform





    2. I think it's short sighted. Because I'm black does not mean life is easier for me or things are cheaper.



    3. A Bake sale is a too short. Buying a cookie is not equal to obtaining a good job.



    4. Shouldn't an Asian be charged $1.25 for a cookie? They have better grades than whites and I've heard grumblings about enrollment numbers there as well.



    In summary it's cute and gets attention but will not promote any real discussion but comparing buying cookies to what Affirmative Action tries to accomplish could only be suggested by someone high on the influence of drugs.
  • Reply 2 of 60
    we had one of the first, here at a&m--the reaction it stirred was incredibly controversial. i must say, though, the YCoT are insane. i dont see it as satire, so much as stubborn conservatism.
  • Reply 3 of 60
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Great stuff.



    People HATE having their views shown up for what they are. Fvck'em. Racism is racism, so why can't a group of white male conservative kids shed a little light on injustice. Or do I forget that white people are immune to injustice, bureaucratic or otherwise?
  • Reply 4 of 60
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison



    4. Shouldn't an Asian be charged $1.25 for a cookie? They have better grades than whites and I've heard grumblings about enrollment numbers there as well.





    Perhaps, but the whites that care about this kind of thing are the one that hate taxes and political correctness, and oriental americans don't put much of a dent in the entrepreneurial climate where most of these types come from.



    Yeah, I'm a white guy in this boat.



    There's a large bit of culture in the oriental community that holds sacred an extreme level of academic commitment followed by a steady job. It's a pretty risk averse bunch, but you can't just toss out the fact that some oriental dude is probably working a lot harder than you are in math class. I only get pissed when affirmative action doesn't work. . . like when a mediocre black guy from suburban DC gets lumped in with a guy from SE who really tried hard to improve his future, against all odds.



    People will kill me here for generalizing, but, dammit, I don't really feel like explaining first the concept of gaussian distribution and then bringing up empirical stats to deliver standard deviations here.
  • Reply 5 of 60
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Splinemodel

    Perhaps, but the whites that care about this kind of thing are the one that hate taxes and political correctness, and oriental americans don't put much of a dent in the entrepreneurial climate where most of these types come from.



    Yeah, I'm a white guy in this boat.



    There's a large bit of culture in the oriental community that holds sacred an extreme level of academic commitment followed by a steady job. It's a pretty risk averse bunch, but you can't just toss out the fact that some oriental dude is probably working a lot harder than you are in math class. I only get pissed when affirmative action doesn't work. . . like when a mediocre black guy from suburban DC gets lumped in with a guy from SE who really tried hard to improve his future, against all odds.



    People will kill me here for generalizing, but, dammit, I don't really feel like explaining first the concept of gaussian distribution and then bringing up empirical stats to deliver standard deviations here.






    "oriental" refers to a direction. ASIAN refers to where the people come from, and thus the people themselves. just thought i'd help you out with this before you get your ass beaten for referring to some asian dudes as "eastern." they hate it.
  • Reply 6 of 60
    scottscott Posts: 7,431member
    Anyone that refers to me as "western" gets a beating.
  • Reply 7 of 60
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Scott

    Anyone that refers to me as "western" gets a beating.





    anyone who refers to me as "texan" gets a beating.
  • Reply 8 of 60
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    It seems like "affirmative action bake sales" are intended to provoke rather than to inform. \
  • Reply 9 of 60
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ShawnJ

    It seems like "affirmative action bake sales" are intended to provoke rather than to inform. \





    Shawn, that is exactly right. here at a&m, it was basically a bunch of ignorant white conservatives bitching about this whole issue (which is getting HUGE, if you happen to live in texas). their little table was surrounded by various angry minority associations. there were more blacks and hispanics in that part of campus than i thought even went to school here. the Young Conservatives of Texas sure accomplished their goal--provoking a whole lot of crap. the mess they stirred up didnt accomplish anything worthwhile, but it did make a&m look even worse to the media (which was translate all over texas) than we already did...which is pretty bad.
  • Reply 10 of 60
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,452member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    These have been popping up everywhere. Even the University of Washington had their little episode recently.



    1. I fully support the right to do this. I don't believe it's racist and it's intentions are to inform





    Pretty good to hear.



    Quote:

    2. I think it's short sighted. Because I'm black does not mean life is easier for me or things are cheaper.



    The point is the opposite. It also doesn't mean life is harder and you have less money. (and hence need more financial aid)



    Please understand I'm reversing the generalization. I'm not trying to attack you.



    Quote:

    3. A Bake sale is a too short. Buying a cookie is not equal to obtaining a good job.



    True and going to college doesn't equal obtaining a good job nor does being admitted equal graduating. In this regard I actually consider it pretty dead on.



    Quote:

    4. Shouldn't an Asian be charged $1.25 for a cookie? They have better grades than whites and I've heard grumblings about enrollment numbers there as well.



    Actually it had a link to the college newspaper reports of various bake sales and one of the did mention this reasoning. I don't recall if they did charge more or if they just mentioned in passing that Asians are often not considered minorities by AA advocates.



    Quote:

    In summary it's cute and gets attention but will not promote any real discussion but comparing buying cookies to what Affirmative Action tries to accomplish could only be suggested by someone high on the influence of drugs.



    It's your opinion, you're entitled to it.



    Nick
  • Reply 11 of 60
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,452member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by _ alliance _

    Shawn, that is exactly right. here at a&m, it was basically a bunch of ignorant white conservatives bitching about this whole issue (which is getting HUGE, if you happen to live in texas). their little table was surrounded by various angry minority associations. there were more blacks and hispanics in that part of campus than i thought even went to school here. the Young Conservatives of Texas sure accomplished their goal--provoking a whole lot of crap. the mess they stirred up didnt accomplish anything worthwhile, but it did make a&m look even worse to the media (which was translate all over texas) than we already did...which is pretty bad.



    Maybe you should ask yourself why it is getting so huge. Here in California we have many of the same issues and have tried and at times succeeded in passing color blind issues. You mention that there were alot more minorities than you thought attended the school. Perhaps that says something about you and your circle of friends and not the reality of the matter.



    In California, we have a minority majority. That means there is no majority and that whites are now just the biggest minority. On top of that men now attend colleges in smaller percentages than women and graduate at lower rates as well. Men are usually about 49% of that 100% of whites. So that would mean we are about a whole 23% of the population. To suggest that 23% of the men, some of who are children or retired, infirmed, etc. so really say 15-16% of the population goes around repressing everyone, is just a little ridiculous. It is even moreso when men go to college and graduate in lower percentages than women across the board including white men.



    So maybe this is brought up because they are tired of getting blamed for something they didn't do, and treated differently for who they are. When it is anyone else, that is considered wrong. If they want to make that point humorously via bake sales, they shouldn't have their speech repressed.



    Nick
  • Reply 12 of 60
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman



    So maybe this is brought up because they are tired of getting blamed for something they didn't do, and treated differently for who they are.

    Nick




    Good point. It is so simple yet so hard for some to grasp.



    Fellowship
  • Reply 13 of 60
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    So maybe this is brought up because they are tired of getting blamed for something they didn't do, and treated differently for who they are. When it is anyone else, that is considered wrong. If they want to make that point humorously via bake sales, they should have their speech repressed.



    What does that even mean?
  • Reply 14 of 60
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by _ alliance _

    Shawn, that is exactly right. here at a&m, it was basically a bunch of ignorant white conservatives bitching about this whole issue (which is getting HUGE, if you happen to live in texas). their little table was surrounded by various angry minority associations. there were more blacks and hispanics in that part of campus than i thought even went to school here. the Young Conservatives of Texas sure accomplished their goal--provoking a whole lot of crap. the mess they stirred up didnt accomplish anything worthwhile, but it did make a&m look even worse to the media (which was translate all over texas) than we already did...which is pretty bad.



    I don't think so. What did these students do but provoke? And already I know some minds are twisting with all the negative permutations of "provoke" but it is a university, provoke can just as easily mean promote discussion and thought, in essence to stimulate a new outlook. Are they to blame? Or perhaps the mobs of angry minority associations should comport themselves better? Why are a bunch of white students suddenly responsible for the comportment of another group of minority students? (your terms)



    What I do involves a lot of time spent figuring out how people think, in the past few years I've found a lot to make me uncomfortable with the politics of white and black. Most specifically this: If you get an angry mob of (insert your minority here) shouting down white people, that doesn't conjure nearly the amount of negative association as any group of white people organized to shout about anything at all. Having been around campuses a long long time, I can tell you with 100% certainty that whenever a white person makes race an issue they are immediately characterized as nazis, period, it comes out, and fast, from both students and faculty. When a "minority" traffics in race, then we heap various praise on their activities. Should "minorities" organize and protest it is invariably deemed "just." The logistics might (and do) work out such that the history of protest more often than not lands American minorities on the "just" side and American whites on the bigoted side, but that logistic imbalance is far from a given any more, especially from center-left politics/academics.
  • Reply 15 of 60
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,452member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ShawnJ

    What does that even mean?



    A typo, it should read shouldn't instead of should.



    Nick
  • Reply 16 of 60
    alcimedesalcimedes Posts: 5,486member
    Quote:

    A typo, it should read shouldn't instead of should.



    damn crackers and their typos.
  • Reply 17 of 60
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    As far as I know, there's no long history of discrimination with respect to cookie access. And obviously, there are no inter-generational effects of cookie access like there are for education. Slaughter and enslave people for centuries, deny them access to education and wealth for many decades after freeing them, and then claim that's no different than charging differently for cookies? I also don't see any long-standing systemic benefits to rich white guys (George W. Bush, anyone?) at this bake sale, like there are in real life. Maybe what they ought to do to make it more realistic is, a few weeks before the bake sale, withdraw $50 from all blacks' bank accounts and put it in whites' accounts.



    Obviously by using a bake sale, they're trying to avoid the historical issues, and trivialize the long-term effects of widespread discrimination. Cool!
  • Reply 18 of 60
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,452member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BRussell

    As far as I know, there's no long history of discrimination with respect to cookie access. And obviously, there are no inter-generational effects of cookie access like there are for education. Slaughter and enslave people for centuries, deny them access to education and wealth for many decades after freeing them, and then claim that's no different than charging differently for cookies? I also don't see any long-standing systemic benefits to rich white guys (George W. Bush, anyone?) at this bake sale, like there are in real life. Maybe what they ought to do to make it more realistic is, a few weeks before the bake sale, withdraw $50 from all blacks' bank accounts and put it in whites' accounts.



    Obviously by using a bake sale, they're trying to avoid the historical issues, and trivialize the long-term effects of widespread discrimination. Cool!




    I think it is you who are simplifying. Certainly there are times in the past where jobs, homes, and access could have been denied to someone who was white as well. It would have said no Irish, or no Italians for example. Likewise you seem to ignore how oppressed the Chinese were during the same time frame yet they have not seemed to become a culture of the permanently disadvantaged.



    Even more amusing are some of the other assumptions. Denial to education. There were schools who would educate blacks to read. (not even getting into all the other groups who now use affirmative action, how did the filipinos for example become enslaved in the US?) Likewise historically during the time of slavery education for many whites consisted of learning to barely read, write, and rudementary math. They might attend school for a few years if they weren't needed on the farm or if they could find a teacher for the school that year. School was hardly compulsory even for whites during that timeframe. Sure we can talk about the elite whites, but the great unwashed, uneducated masses were all colors, and continue to be so to this day.



    Likewise you make it sound like these issues have been fixed because of affirmative action when they haven't. All people today have enough spent on their education and access to one in my book. The real issue is whether education, culturally and subculturally when discussing different groups, is considered important. When I worked in South Central Los Angeles, I always hated coming back to work after a long holiday weekend. The school was always badly vandelized, regardless of the 8 foot fences all the way around. We had a black principal, asian AP, hispanic bilingual coordinator, black title one coordinator, and the staff was at least 60% hispanic or black.



    Yet we would come back from long weekends and see the school treated as if the community thought it an imposition. We would find grafitti, feces, you name it. On top of it all there were massive amounts of money being spent to stop the academic failure there. I sat on committees where we would decide how to spend $650k on these 1000 students per year. That wasn't includeding the base state money, this was above it. USC, which was right nextdoor had started a program where if you graduated from Manual Arts with good grades and while having gone through their mentoring program, they would give you your college education for free. The drop out rate was still about 45% for the High School.



    Likewise you fail to address how even if what everything you claimed is true, how it wouldn't be addressed via economic concerns instead of racial concerns. If, as you claim blacks are in a worse position with regard to their finances and means of getting into school, wouldn't they still be overrepresented in affirmative action admittance since they would be disproportionately poor? That is what I don't get from the advocates. If they are truly disadvantaged and the affirmative action program serves the disadvantaged, it will serve them. Instead it becomes an argument about how the privleged in one race should get in over the disadvantaged of another. You can combat the benefits of money and power without including race.



    Nick
  • Reply 19 of 60
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    I guess you're right. Blacks really haven't had it so bad after all, despite the genocide and all that. What was I thinking.



    PS: Do you really believe conservatives support affirmative action based on income? Because you and I need to have a little talk about the facts of life if you do.
  • Reply 20 of 60
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,452member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BRussell

    I guess you're right. Blacks really haven't had it so bad after all, despite the genocide and all that. What was I thinking.



    PS: Do you really believe conservatives support affirmative action based on income? Because you and I need to have a little talk about the facts of life if you do.




    Genocide?



    The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.



    While blacks didn't have their freedom or the fruits of their labor, I don't think they were slotted for extermination.



    As for income based affirmative action, yes I believe that is what conservatives support because that is what I have seen implimented in place of the race based initiatives. I've seen income and I've also seen programs where they take the top X% of say, each high school.



    So I guess in view of the actual ACTIONS, and not angry allegations, I will need that "talking to about the facts of life." Likewise make sure you explain how "underrepresented minorities" are some how systematically held down by "the man" while other minorities like asians, indians, jews, and others attend in disproportionate numbers and are somehow not held down by "the man."



    Nick
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