1.) I don''t understand you facsinaion with jaggies and FSAA. if you play at 1024 x 768 jaggies are almost never there. and I have a Radeon (original). Just recently has FSAA been implemented for my card in OS X and there is next to no difference.
2.) Here's a suggestion:. Go to eBay and get a dual 800. they are going for less than 2000 dollars in stock configs. Then get a Radeon 8500 and be happy. Keep in mind that Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter though
<strong>1.) I don''t understand you facsinaion with jaggies and FSAA. if you play at 1024 x 768 jaggies are almost never there. and I have a Radeon (original).
Keep in mind that Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter though</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter ????
Is this a typo ? You mean the 800 ?
About jaggies and AA, I played with a G4 with the 17" LCD in a store recently. The Quake demo showed lots of jaggies, and it was at max resolution (native resolution of the LCD).
blah blah blah gf4Ti will be the most powefull card out there for awhile, moreso than the 8500. if you can't afford it go for the 8500- NOT a gf4mx... if you really cant afford it a gf3 performs better than the gf4mx.
if you have the money buy the gf4ti, this thread is going on too long...
Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter ????
Is this a typo ? You mean the 800 ?
About jaggies and AA, I played with a G4 with the 17" LCD in a store recently. The Quake demo showed lots of jaggies, and it was at max resolution (native resolution of the LCD).
I hated it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple's LCDs have ADC. Radeon 8500 has DVI and VGA. therefore an adapter is needed.
ad for AA. Can't help you. if you are that sensitive about a jaggy edge on such fast hardware especially coming from the machine you are then there is something wrong
I would go with the Radeon 8500 as long as I didn't have an ADC display
-ADC</strong><hr></blockquote>
I did this once already. I think my post was deleted on accident, or something.
Geforce 4 Ti
-best performer
-ADC
-399
Applenut forgot the DVI connection in the Ti. It has both -ADC, and DVI
This is what I'd like to know Applenut because I think your either jealous, or have a major case of GeForce envy to go along with that other envy you have. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> j/k
I recently sold my 867 w/GeForce 3 to upgrade to the DP W/Ti.
My experiances with NVidia, and the GeForce3 are nothing less than Awesome, and Fantastic. I never had a thing to complain about with GeForce3.
The GeForce 4 Ti has more power, more DRR (128MB), and is going to blow my GeForce3 away I'm sure of it.
What experiances do you have with recent high end Nvidia cards other than what you may have read?
I would also like to note that the 8500 ATI card was designed to keep up with the GeForce3, but fell short. We are talking about a generation Gap in video cards, and you are talking up the previous generation. The GeForce 4 Ti is such a giant leap ahead of the 8500 that ATI couldent see it with the Hubble telescope.
Applenut forgot the DVI connection in the Ti. It has both -ADC, and DVI<hr></blockquote>
that is correct. sorry about leaving it out
[quote]
This is what I'd like to know Applenut because I think your either jealous, or have a major case of GeForce envy to go along with that other envy you have. j/k<hr></blockquote>
Damn right I'm jealous. a Geforce 4 Ti is fast. But that doesn't influence what I reccomended. right now the radeon 8500 if you DON'T HAVE AN APPLE LCD is the best all around card for the price IMO.
Obviously the ADC situation changes that a bit
[quote]
My experiances with NVidia, and the GeForce3 are nothing less than Awesome, and Fantastic. I never had a thing to complain about with GeForce3.
The GeForce 4 Ti has more power, more DRR (128MB), and is going to blow my GeForce3 away I'm sure of it. <hr></blockquote>
great to hear. I'm sure as more and more updates come that the cards will be even more compatible and better performers
[quote]
What experiances do you have with recent high end Nvidia cards other than what you may have read?<hr></blockquote>
enough to have a good feel for them
1.) As stated, RAVE in OS 9 is horrible on them. This has not changed
2.) DVD Playback uses considerably more processor power than on an ATI card. Minor squabble. DVD Playback also looks better on ATI cards IMO
3.) Not nearly as optimized as the PC. PC drivers perform far above the mac version. this could also be due to other mac shortcomings but don't expect to get anywhere near the performance PC users get
4.) various OpenGL bugs
5.) lack of support for "advanced features". What good is spending 400 dollars on a card if what makes it special is not supported.
[quote]
I would also like to note that the 8500 ATI card was designed to keep up with the GeForce3, but fell short. We are talking about a generation Gap in video cards, and you are talking up the previous generation. The GeForce 4 Ti is such a giant leap ahead of the 8500 that ATI couldent see it with the Hubble telescope.<hr></blockquote>
we are talking about a price difference of 100-150 dollars. we are talking about a card that is more compatible and has more supported features such as adaptive deinterlacing of dvds, S-video out for tv and FSAA.
The last two posts were very interesting. Thanks folks.
I didn't knew about the ADC missing on the 8500 card. I confirmed this a minute ago, by reading the ATI specifications on their web site. For me, this is killing the card as I'll have an Apple LCD (I don't have a choice, for reasons I wont explain here).
So this leaves me with the NVidia cards only, without the advanced features. This is really sad. So the Titanium card will be useless for me. I'll forget about it then, and stick with the MX.
What exactly is the cause for the absence of advanced features with the NVidia card ? NVidia drivers or the actual OS X OpenGL ?
This discussion is now becoming very interesting for me, as it's clarifying my choices. Thanks.
WTF is your point? If cost is no object just go out and max a G4 config. If you're thinking about SCSI setups then cost isn't really an object now is it? Might as well get at least a 17" LCD too. The OpenGL update (hopefully sometime this year) will adress many of your visual quality concerns.
I broke it down for you. You don't want to admit that this is basically a gaming machine cum teen boy, recluse porn station, "I have high tech" penis extender, that's fine by me. It's your money. But if you really were interested in Mathematica and 3D modelling, you'd get yourself the dual, a lot of RAM, and make your comprimises elsewhere. The fact that you're willing to comprimise against application performance for your self proclaimed key uses tells me that this is first and formost a very expensive GameCube that you're looking to buy. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Hey, it's your money, so enjoy, but let's not have any more bullshit about visual quality in games or beautiful/realistic special effects, or your age, and what you plan to do with the computer.
Take a walk outside, real life still has far better frame rates than anything nVidia or ATI does, and no jaggies either. You might like it.
By your writings, you're showing you're jealous or a perfect moron. Why are you replying anyway ? I'm seeking info, and all you're able to do is bitching me. If you don't like my posts, just go elswhere. Who do you think you are, smart ass ? Who are you to judge others like that ? My guess is that YOU ARE the teen here.
It is the last time I'm replying to a message from you, Matsu, because you're not mature enough to help ppl. Get lost.
I seriosuly think you should consider the dual 800 either from eBay or from a reseller new. it's a great machine. and for the money you save you can buy the Geforce 4 Ti.
The features are not supported because of the current limitations of OpenGl. I'm not sure how ATI has FSAA and nVidia doesn't but the problem is OpenGL. Apple has said they plan to support all the features in the future so its up to you
<strong>I seriosuly think you should consider the dual 800 either from eBay or from a reseller new. it's a great machine. and for the money you save you can buy the Geforce 4 Ti.
...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the suggestion AppleNut.
Unfortunately, there are limitations from the store where I'll buy my stuff. It's one of the very few stores in Montreal where I can get the education prices (big difference), and there is no old G4 anymore there or elswhere. Only new Macs.
And sadly, Apple don't let us buy their options at the educationnal price. For example, I can't get the Titanium card in the new 933MHz or dual, at educationnal price. Only the default MX. Of course, I'll be able to upgrade later, but this is frustrating a bit.
And sadly, Apple don't let us buy their options at the educationnal price. For example, I can't get the Titanium card in the new 933MHz or dual, at educationnal price. Only the default MX. Of course, I'll be able to upgrade later, but this is frustrating a bit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If that's the case, look on the bright side: given that the 4MX isn't a bad card by any means, you can just run with that for now, and if you find it's adequate than you've saved yourself the cost of an upgrade.
That would also give Apple time to decide whether they want to offer the 8500 as a BTO option. If so, you'll get an ADC version. I wouldn't count on that happening, but you never know.
Please, get a clue. You've been given good advice, but refuse to listen to it. Why even bother asking? Sounds like you knew what you wanted before you asked. If this were about serious use, you'd get the dual, and drop all the eye-candy for now. It sounds like you plan to upgrade the machine in the future anyway.
Enjoy your Mac. It's not like it's a bad machine. 800/933/DP1000 are all great machines, but you're picking nits when people make reasonable suggestions in the first place.
sample conversation,
Kali: Should I get A or B? I really want A. What's better for my intended use?
Other users: Well you won't see too much difference but overall, if those intended uses are correct, you should get this other config (C)for similar cash.
Kali: No I don't want that other config. I don't care if it doesn't suit my intended use. You're jealous. I want a high quality computer (for Quake) so You Shut up now!
OK here we go. I found that on Mac Mall you can get the Radeon 8500 for $255. The card is 64 MB DDR and has a 275/275 clock right? Well, for around the same price I'm thinking that the GF4 Ti 4400 will be available with 128 MB DDR (double the RAM) & faster clock speeds. I believe the MSRP of the 4400 is $299, which will put it around the Mac radeon 8500 price. I think if people are to get these beasts working right out of the box or with no trouble (simple flash) then the clear price/performance winner is the GF4 Ti. You won't get a card hindered in clock speeds and you can even choose the flavor. That Radeon 8500 should be $200 in my opinion. I do like the box for the 8500 though.
Fine! My mind is now totally clear about my purchases. All those posts and replies were very usefull, finally. Here's exactly what I'll buy :
G4 933MHz with 768 MB ram, Apple 17" LCD, default GeF4 MX. Educationnal price.
After a while, I don't know when exactly (september ?), I'll upgrade the card to the Titanium.
The only thing I must do for now is to wait until more cash go to the bank. Mid-march, I'll pass my command. If my revenues are better than expected, I may go for the dual.
O wait ! I'll buy the dual with the Cinema display and a full Gig of ram, just to annoys Matsu YES ! YES ! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
no no. A Gig of RAM is the smartest thing you could do. Cinema display? I might forgo a Dually for a cinema display. There really isn't anything comparable out there. And even though it's pricey at 2500. It'll probably hold onto it's value better than the powermac itself (at least for the next year)
1. If you look through the Nvidia site (I think under "where to buy") for GeForce Mac products, you will see a disclaimer stating that all GeForce cards for Mac are designed and manufactured by Apple.
2. If you look at Apple's description of the Ti card, it clearly makes the implication that THIS card (and not the others, whether from Nvidia or not) performs some kind of graphics acceleration within the GPU that otherwise would be done by the CPU. Of course this could be RDF, but since the card will coincide roughly with some upcoming Mac events perhaps they will give us an OS X demo proving their point?
"The NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium is also offered as a configure-to-order option. This card incorporates the fourth generation GPU from NVIDIA, and delivers unprecedented visual effects and sizzling frame rates. Built on the nFiniteFX II engine, the Ti card offers unprecedented programmability for developers of games and pro applications, allowing them to achieve new levels of realism by having much more control over how objects appear. Performance is also faster because the processing is done completely in the GPU, rather than in the CPU." (emphasis mine)
People have been talking for a long time about how Quartz could be sped up a great deal by having a powerful GPU do all the hard work, rather than the CPU...anyone think has Apple finally done this? I read somewhere (probably in here) that at some point all Radeon and GeForce-based Macs will benefit from this kind of acceleration. Maybe this card will be the first.
Comments
2.) Here's a suggestion:. Go to eBay and get a dual 800. they are going for less than 2000 dollars in stock configs. Then get a Radeon 8500 and be happy. Keep in mind that Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter though
<strong>1.) I don''t understand you facsinaion with jaggies and FSAA. if you play at 1024 x 768 jaggies are almost never there. and I have a Radeon (original).
Keep in mind that Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter though</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter ????
Is this a typo ? You mean the 800 ?
About jaggies and AA, I played with a G4 with the 17" LCD in a store recently. The Quake demo showed lots of jaggies, and it was at max resolution (native resolution of the LCD).
I hated it.
if you have the money buy the gf4ti, this thread is going on too long...
<strong>
Apple's LCDs won't work with the 8500 without an expensive adapter ????
Is this a typo ? You mean the 800 ?
About jaggies and AA, I played with a G4 with the 17" LCD in a store recently. The Quake demo showed lots of jaggies, and it was at max resolution (native resolution of the LCD).
I hated it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple's LCDs have ADC. Radeon 8500 has DVI and VGA. therefore an adapter is needed.
ad for AA. Can't help you. if you are that sensitive about a jaggy edge on such fast hardware especially coming from the machine you are then there is something wrong
<strong>
Radeon 8500
-great drivers
-good support
-S-Video Out
-DVI and VGA
-great performance
-FSAA
-great DVD Playback
-299
Geforce 4 Ti
-best performer
-ADC
-399
I would go with the Radeon 8500 as long as I didn't have an ADC display
-ADC</strong><hr></blockquote>
I did this once already. I think my post was deleted on accident, or something.
Geforce 4 Ti
-best performer
-ADC
-399
Applenut forgot the DVI connection in the Ti. It has both -ADC, and DVI
This is what I'd like to know Applenut because I think your either jealous, or have a major case of GeForce envy to go along with that other envy you have. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> j/k
I recently sold my 867 w/GeForce 3 to upgrade to the DP W/Ti.
My experiances with NVidia, and the GeForce3 are nothing less than Awesome, and Fantastic. I never had a thing to complain about with GeForce3.
The GeForce 4 Ti has more power, more DRR (128MB), and is going to blow my GeForce3 away I'm sure of it.
What experiances do you have with recent high end Nvidia cards other than what you may have read?
I would also like to note that the 8500 ATI card was designed to keep up with the GeForce3, but fell short. We are talking about a generation Gap in video cards, and you are talking up the previous generation. The GeForce 4 Ti is such a giant leap ahead of the 8500 that ATI couldent see it with the Hubble telescope.
Applenut forgot the DVI connection in the Ti. It has both -ADC, and DVI<hr></blockquote>
that is correct. sorry about leaving it out
[quote]
This is what I'd like to know Applenut because I think your either jealous, or have a major case of GeForce envy to go along with that other envy you have. j/k<hr></blockquote>
Damn right I'm jealous. a Geforce 4 Ti is fast. But that doesn't influence what I reccomended. right now the radeon 8500 if you DON'T HAVE AN APPLE LCD is the best all around card for the price IMO.
Obviously the ADC situation changes that a bit
[quote]
My experiances with NVidia, and the GeForce3 are nothing less than Awesome, and Fantastic. I never had a thing to complain about with GeForce3.
The GeForce 4 Ti has more power, more DRR (128MB), and is going to blow my GeForce3 away I'm sure of it. <hr></blockquote>
great to hear. I'm sure as more and more updates come that the cards will be even more compatible and better performers
[quote]
What experiances do you have with recent high end Nvidia cards other than what you may have read?<hr></blockquote>
enough to have a good feel for them
1.) As stated, RAVE in OS 9 is horrible on them. This has not changed
2.) DVD Playback uses considerably more processor power than on an ATI card. Minor squabble. DVD Playback also looks better on ATI cards IMO
3.) Not nearly as optimized as the PC. PC drivers perform far above the mac version. this could also be due to other mac shortcomings but don't expect to get anywhere near the performance PC users get
4.) various OpenGL bugs
5.) lack of support for "advanced features". What good is spending 400 dollars on a card if what makes it special is not supported.
[quote]
I would also like to note that the 8500 ATI card was designed to keep up with the GeForce3, but fell short. We are talking about a generation Gap in video cards, and you are talking up the previous generation. The GeForce 4 Ti is such a giant leap ahead of the 8500 that ATI couldent see it with the Hubble telescope.<hr></blockquote>
we are talking about a price difference of 100-150 dollars. we are talking about a card that is more compatible and has more supported features such as adaptive deinterlacing of dvds, S-video out for tv and FSAA.
The last two posts were very interesting. Thanks folks.
I didn't knew about the ADC missing on the 8500 card. I confirmed this a minute ago, by reading the ATI specifications on their web site. For me, this is killing the card as I'll have an Apple LCD (I don't have a choice, for reasons I wont explain here).
So this leaves me with the NVidia cards only, without the advanced features. This is really sad. So the Titanium card will be useless for me. I'll forget about it then, and stick with the MX.
What exactly is the cause for the absence of advanced features with the NVidia card ? NVidia drivers or the actual OS X OpenGL ?
This discussion is now becoming very interesting for me, as it's clarifying my choices. Thanks.
WTF is your point? If cost is no object just go out and max a G4 config. If you're thinking about SCSI setups then cost isn't really an object now is it? Might as well get at least a 17" LCD too. The OpenGL update (hopefully sometime this year) will adress many of your visual quality concerns.
I broke it down for you. You don't want to admit that this is basically a gaming machine cum teen boy, recluse porn station, "I have high tech" penis extender, that's fine by me. It's your money. But if you really were interested in Mathematica and 3D modelling, you'd get yourself the dual, a lot of RAM, and make your comprimises elsewhere. The fact that you're willing to comprimise against application performance for your self proclaimed key uses tells me that this is first and formost a very expensive GameCube that you're looking to buy. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Hey, it's your money, so enjoy, but let's not have any more bullshit about visual quality in games or beautiful/realistic special effects, or your age, and what you plan to do with the computer.
Take a walk outside, real life still has far better frame rates than anything nVidia or ATI does, and no jaggies either. You might like it.
By your writings, you're showing you're jealous or a perfect moron. Why are you replying anyway ? I'm seeking info, and all you're able to do is bitching me. If you don't like my posts, just go elswhere. Who do you think you are, smart ass ? Who are you to judge others like that ? My guess is that YOU ARE the teen here.
It is the last time I'm replying to a message from you, Matsu, because you're not mature enough to help ppl. Get lost.
I seriosuly think you should consider the dual 800 either from eBay or from a reseller new. it's a great machine. and for the money you save you can buy the Geforce 4 Ti.
The features are not supported because of the current limitations of OpenGl. I'm not sure how ATI has FSAA and nVidia doesn't but the problem is OpenGL. Apple has said they plan to support all the features in the future so its up to you
<strong>I seriosuly think you should consider the dual 800 either from eBay or from a reseller new. it's a great machine. and for the money you save you can buy the Geforce 4 Ti.
...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the suggestion AppleNut.
Unfortunately, there are limitations from the store where I'll buy my stuff. It's one of the very few stores in Montreal where I can get the education prices (big difference), and there is no old G4 anymore there or elswhere. Only new Macs.
And sadly, Apple don't let us buy their options at the educationnal price. For example, I can't get the Titanium card in the new 933MHz or dual, at educationnal price. Only the default MX. Of course, I'll be able to upgrade later, but this is frustrating a bit.
<strong>
And sadly, Apple don't let us buy their options at the educationnal price. For example, I can't get the Titanium card in the new 933MHz or dual, at educationnal price. Only the default MX. Of course, I'll be able to upgrade later, but this is frustrating a bit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If that's the case, look on the bright side: given that the 4MX isn't a bad card by any means, you can just run with that for now, and if you find it's adequate than you've saved yourself the cost of an upgrade.
That would also give Apple time to decide whether they want to offer the 8500 as a BTO option. If so, you'll get an ADC version. I wouldn't count on that happening, but you never know.
[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: onlooker ]</p>
Please, get a clue. You've been given good advice, but refuse to listen to it. Why even bother asking? Sounds like you knew what you wanted before you asked. If this were about serious use, you'd get the dual, and drop all the eye-candy for now. It sounds like you plan to upgrade the machine in the future anyway.
Enjoy your Mac. It's not like it's a bad machine. 800/933/DP1000 are all great machines, but you're picking nits when people make reasonable suggestions in the first place.
sample conversation,
Kali: Should I get A or B? I really want A. What's better for my intended use?
Other users: Well you won't see too much difference but overall, if those intended uses are correct, you should get this other config (C)for similar cash.
Kali: No I don't want that other config. I don't care if it doesn't suit my intended use. You're jealous. I want a high quality computer (for Quake) so You Shut up now!
Other users Enjoy your machine.
[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
G4 933MHz with 768 MB ram, Apple 17" LCD, default GeF4 MX. Educationnal price.
After a while, I don't know when exactly (september ?), I'll upgrade the card to the Titanium.
The only thing I must do for now is to wait until more cash go to the bank. Mid-march, I'll pass my command. If my revenues are better than expected, I may go for the dual.
O wait ! I'll buy the dual with the Cinema display and a full Gig of ram, just to annoys Matsu
no no. A Gig of RAM is the smartest thing you could do. Cinema display? I might forgo a Dually for a cinema display. There really isn't anything comparable out there. And even though it's pricey at 2500. It'll probably hold onto it's value better than the powermac itself (at least for the next year)
Specs:
? Controller: NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti 4400
? Bus Type AGP
? Memory 128MB DDR
? Core Clock 275MHz
? Memory Clock 550MHz DDR memory
? RAMDAC 350MHz RAMDAC
? Vertical Refresh See Chart on other side
? API Support Direct-X®, Open GL ICD®
for Windows
? Connectors VGA, S-Video, DVI
? 1.16 trillion operations/sec.
? 125 Million triangles/sec setup
? 8.8GB/second memory bandwidth
Should I buy this like now?
1. If you look through the Nvidia site (I think under "where to buy") for GeForce Mac products, you will see a disclaimer stating that all GeForce cards for Mac are designed and manufactured by Apple.
2. If you look at Apple's description of the Ti card, it clearly makes the implication that THIS card (and not the others, whether from Nvidia or not) performs some kind of graphics acceleration within the GPU that otherwise would be done by the CPU. Of course this could be RDF, but since the card will coincide roughly with some upcoming Mac events perhaps they will give us an OS X demo proving their point?
"The NVIDIA GeForce4 Titanium is also offered as a configure-to-order option. This card incorporates the fourth generation GPU from NVIDIA, and delivers unprecedented visual effects and sizzling frame rates. Built on the nFiniteFX II engine, the Ti card offers unprecedented programmability for developers of games and pro applications, allowing them to achieve new levels of realism by having much more control over how objects appear. Performance is also faster because the processing is done completely in the GPU, rather than in the CPU." (emphasis mine)
People have been talking for a long time about how Quartz could be sped up a great deal by having a powerful GPU do all the hard work, rather than the CPU...anyone think has Apple finally done this? I read somewhere (probably in here) that at some point all Radeon and GeForce-based Macs will benefit from this kind of acceleration. Maybe this card will be the first.
[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>