I like my islamic religion, and here is why:
1. It offers me a great inner stability to believe that there is a God and only one God.
The islamic religion explains the existence of a God, in the meaning of a creator of the whole universe, with the existence of that universe and with the order and beauty of the universe.
I know that the argument is not a proof at all, and the islamic religion doesn't claim to have a proof of God's existence. Therefore it is an exercise of belief to either think that the universe was created or not.
What the islamic religion proves is that if there is a God it can only be one God and not more. The proof goes something like this:
Let's assume there are two Gods, meaning all-powerful and all-knowing beings. One of the Gods decides to let the humanity die, but the other God doesn't want that. Whoever of these Gods wins the "fight" proves that the other God is not all-powerful.
Similar argument goes for the all-knowing side.
2. The islamic religion tells me that even when I die sometime in the future, not all is lost and over. That I will be recreated to then live on forever either in hell or in paradise.
So, when I believe in God I have an opportunity to gain access to paradise, but only if I comply to do these things in my life on earth: Praying to God five times a day, for one month in the year not eating nor drinking for the sun-hours, donating a part of my hard-earned money to poor people and to people in emergency, keeping my promises, not harming people who aren't harming me, having only sex with my wife, being friendly to my neighbours and my family...
That all not only disciplines me but civilises me, and turns me to a really nice guy all around.
3. The islamic religion tells me that the time of my death is predetermined. That takes a lot of fear and sorrow out of my heart, and makes me quite brave.
4. The islamic religion tells me that I should learn as much as possible about the world. Therefore I studied sciences, espescially mathematics and physics, very interesting and useful stuff.
5. That is all nice and good, but why not being christian or jewish, I hear you asking. The islamic religion is from the same God that has sent Moses and Jesus as prophets to humanity. So why not take the last and newest version of God's message?
It's a message for all humans, and comes complete with a book in which one can read God's message. The Quran contains God's message brought over by the angel "Gabriel" to the prophet Mohammed over a period of 23 years.
It's written in the arabic language because the prophet Mohammeds language was the arabic language.
One can either learn the arabic language or cross-read different translations of the Quran to get the whole picture, as no single translation can offer the right scope.
6. I know the islamic religion has an image-problem. This stems from two things: the islamic terrorists, and the unequalness of women and men in islamic societies.
a) God says in the Quran that you have to stand up and fight if you are being fought against. Well the islamic world has been fought against, in fact the islamic world has been destroyed by european colonialists during the 19th century up to the first worldwar.
The islamic world then became an european colony, until the 50's and 60's of the 20th century. Some parts of the islamic world were controlled by France, some by England. These two created most of the islamic nations by painting arbitrary lines on the map.
The europeans withdraw a few years after worldwarII, and the US overtook the strategic control of the islamic world.
The US supported US-friendly regimes, even though they are dictatorships, and when a regime was not US-friendly it supported and instructed the opposition to overtake power.
Normally a dictator can't rule against the will of his people for a long time, he would eventually be toppled over, but the dictators in the islamic world are being supported by the US, not only with councellors, CIA-agents, trainers, but also with a lot of money and weapons, so that it is much harder for the people to topple over that dictators.
With that double-strategy the US created bloody nations with little potential for development.
That is the first point the terrorists are fighting for, they are fighting for revenge for the death-toll the US is responsible for. Yes, the Quran does support revenge, but also prefers forgivance, if the other side stops the killing.
The second point the terrorists are fighting against is the US-friendliness of their nations. What does US-friendliness mean? It means special access to the ressources of that nation for the US and its corporations, and it means the import of american culture for example in the mass-media, like TV, cinemas, etc...
But what it makes really interesting is that these islamic terrorists probably will go to hell, because eventhough they have genuine and good motifs, their means are not allowed in the islamic religion. For example it is not allowed to kill innocent people, and it is not allowed to commit suicide.
What is allowed are freedom-fighters who fight against soldiers, and who use guerillia-tactics.
b) What does the islamic religion say about women and men? Well, it says that men and women are not equal, because God created men and women differently. And when God does and says it in the Quran, who are we who believe in him to doubt that. But what the Quran also says is that women and men have both the same rights, escpescially they both have the right to gain access to paradise. That means the Quran says, that both women and men are god-created beings with a free will, with a soul, with rights and duties, and both can enter paradise, if they have deserved it.
The work-division, that men earn the money and women look after the children is culturally, and has nothing to do with the Quran or the islamic religion, in fact it's a worldwide culture, that has evolved through all different societies and times.
Espescially it has nothing to do with men suppressing women. In the islamic world the earning of money and the fighting in war are regarded as unwelcome duties.
Nightcrawler
The islamic religion explains the existence of a God, in the meaning of a creator of the whole universe, with the existence of that universe and with the order and beauty of the universe.
I know that the argument is not a proof at all, and the islamic religion doesn't claim to have a proof of God's existence. Therefore it is an exercise of belief to either think that the universe was created or not.
What the islamic religion proves is that if there is a God it can only be one God and not more. The proof goes something like this:
Let's assume there are two Gods, meaning all-powerful and all-knowing beings. One of the Gods decides to let the humanity die, but the other God doesn't want that. Whoever of these Gods wins the "fight" proves that the other God is not all-powerful.
Similar argument goes for the all-knowing side.
2. The islamic religion tells me that even when I die sometime in the future, not all is lost and over. That I will be recreated to then live on forever either in hell or in paradise.
So, when I believe in God I have an opportunity to gain access to paradise, but only if I comply to do these things in my life on earth: Praying to God five times a day, for one month in the year not eating nor drinking for the sun-hours, donating a part of my hard-earned money to poor people and to people in emergency, keeping my promises, not harming people who aren't harming me, having only sex with my wife, being friendly to my neighbours and my family...
That all not only disciplines me but civilises me, and turns me to a really nice guy all around.
3. The islamic religion tells me that the time of my death is predetermined. That takes a lot of fear and sorrow out of my heart, and makes me quite brave.
4. The islamic religion tells me that I should learn as much as possible about the world. Therefore I studied sciences, espescially mathematics and physics, very interesting and useful stuff.
5. That is all nice and good, but why not being christian or jewish, I hear you asking. The islamic religion is from the same God that has sent Moses and Jesus as prophets to humanity. So why not take the last and newest version of God's message?
It's a message for all humans, and comes complete with a book in which one can read God's message. The Quran contains God's message brought over by the angel "Gabriel" to the prophet Mohammed over a period of 23 years.
It's written in the arabic language because the prophet Mohammeds language was the arabic language.
One can either learn the arabic language or cross-read different translations of the Quran to get the whole picture, as no single translation can offer the right scope.
6. I know the islamic religion has an image-problem. This stems from two things: the islamic terrorists, and the unequalness of women and men in islamic societies.
a) God says in the Quran that you have to stand up and fight if you are being fought against. Well the islamic world has been fought against, in fact the islamic world has been destroyed by european colonialists during the 19th century up to the first worldwar.
The islamic world then became an european colony, until the 50's and 60's of the 20th century. Some parts of the islamic world were controlled by France, some by England. These two created most of the islamic nations by painting arbitrary lines on the map.
The europeans withdraw a few years after worldwarII, and the US overtook the strategic control of the islamic world.
The US supported US-friendly regimes, even though they are dictatorships, and when a regime was not US-friendly it supported and instructed the opposition to overtake power.
Normally a dictator can't rule against the will of his people for a long time, he would eventually be toppled over, but the dictators in the islamic world are being supported by the US, not only with councellors, CIA-agents, trainers, but also with a lot of money and weapons, so that it is much harder for the people to topple over that dictators.
With that double-strategy the US created bloody nations with little potential for development.
That is the first point the terrorists are fighting for, they are fighting for revenge for the death-toll the US is responsible for. Yes, the Quran does support revenge, but also prefers forgivance, if the other side stops the killing.
The second point the terrorists are fighting against is the US-friendliness of their nations. What does US-friendliness mean? It means special access to the ressources of that nation for the US and its corporations, and it means the import of american culture for example in the mass-media, like TV, cinemas, etc...
But what it makes really interesting is that these islamic terrorists probably will go to hell, because eventhough they have genuine and good motifs, their means are not allowed in the islamic religion. For example it is not allowed to kill innocent people, and it is not allowed to commit suicide.
What is allowed are freedom-fighters who fight against soldiers, and who use guerillia-tactics.
b) What does the islamic religion say about women and men? Well, it says that men and women are not equal, because God created men and women differently. And when God does and says it in the Quran, who are we who believe in him to doubt that. But what the Quran also says is that women and men have both the same rights, escpescially they both have the right to gain access to paradise. That means the Quran says, that both women and men are god-created beings with a free will, with a soul, with rights and duties, and both can enter paradise, if they have deserved it.
The work-division, that men earn the money and women look after the children is culturally, and has nothing to do with the Quran or the islamic religion, in fact it's a worldwide culture, that has evolved through all different societies and times.
Espescially it has nothing to do with men suppressing women. In the islamic world the earning of money and the fighting in war are regarded as unwelcome duties.
Nightcrawler
Comments
Ifa, Vodun and Santeria also believe that ones birth and death are predetermined soooooo.....
the Laws of the conservation of Energy and Matter and thermodynamics basically assures everyone that they will exist is some shape and form after they die. And even if an 'Afterlife' didn't exist, what's the big deal? Are you that depressed about your life that you need some other life to look forward to? are you that out of control with your urges that you need a Hell for a deterent?
As for the rest of it, well that has little to do with Islam per-se.
I personally think the discipline in Islam is similar to the type you see in military boot camps. It is relatively easy for the clerics to convince the followers to loose their individuality and dedicate their lives to the cause of the religion (or the cleric's political agenda).
Then again, I am crazy.
8)
Who knew that God was a neoconservative?
Just 2 questions :
1) your historical point of vue is interesting, but don't you think that the occidental world past and present action are the only reasons to explain dictatorship and in a latter extent, terrorism ?
2) about men and women. Thanks to have point it out that both have free will, a soul ...But i don't understand why different means not equal. It's obvious that men and women are different, but why one gender should be superior to the other ?
Originally posted by Nightcrawler
1. It offers me a great inner stability to believe that there is a God and only one God.
Islam isn't alone in this regard, of course, but neither do polytheistic religions suffer from the paradoxes you present. Further, if you are willing to apply human logic and limitations to an omnipotent diety (can't be in two places at once, anything that exists must have a creation, etc..) you start to run into lots of problems.
2. The islamic religion tells me that even when I die sometime in the future, not all is lost and over. That I will be recreated to then live on forever either in hell or in paradise. [/B]
Of course, this too is quite common and from the view of an agnostic it can have a much more sinister intent. That is, if I were to make up a religion with the intent of controlling people and making them live by rules I consider moral I would promise the exact same things (reward for following, punishment for not).
Further, in your descriptions of good behavior, ask yourself why someone who does the very same things simply because it is the right thing to do should suffer in hell simply for not paying homage to your chosen diety.
3. The islamic religion tells me that the time of my death is predetermined. That takes a lot of fear and sorrow out of my heart, and makes me quite brave. [/B]
Whatever flips your boat. I don't think this belief is in anyway special to Islam. A lot of atheists will accept determinism and have no fear of death simply because it is pointless to fear it.
4. The islamic religion tells me that I should learn as much as possible about the world. Therefore I studied sciences, espescially mathematics and physics, very interesting and useful stuff. [/B]
Unfortunately, much of islam in practice has closed the door on discovery. Certianly no discovery that contradicts the Koran is entertained. Evolution isn't very popular despite the overwhelming evidential support (note: My understanding is that at one point some sects of islam actually supported it, but it felt out of favor).
5. That is all nice and good, but why not being christian or jewish, I hear you asking. The islamic religion is from the same God that has sent Moses and Jesus as prophets to humanity. So why not take the last and newest version of God's message? [/B]
What, you mean the book of Mormon? That's the most recent version claimed to be a message from God (that has gained wide acceptance). That's not to say that someone isn't claiming new divine revelation all the time.
6. I know the islamic religion has an image-problem. This stems from two things: the islamic terrorists, and the unequalness of women and men in islamic societies.
a) ....What is allowed are freedom-fighters who fight against soldiers, and who use guerillia-tactics. [/B]
A very fuzzy distinction from terrorism.
b) What does the islamic religion say about women and men? Well, it says that men and women are not equal, because God created men and women differently. [/B]
Sure, by that logic maybe we should treat the races different as they were apparently created differrently by God. I believe even a lot of slave owners believed that the slaves could get access to heaven, but their role on earth, as assigned by God, was to be a slave.
Sorry, just don't buy it. Maybe it's because I have two daughters and I think they should be able to pursue all their interests, not have to hide their bodies simply because some men can't control themselves, and are no way subservient to men.
Also, as a developmental biologist I recognize that gender isn't all that big a thing. Further, I've yet to have someone who believes God requires gender specific behaviors explain to me how they decide what gender is, especially in light of examples of ambigious genetic and physical sex. Do hermaphrodites get into paradise? If so, by acting how?
I think the principle goal we should have as fellow humans living on this ball of life called earth is to respect and love all. Not to divide ourselves into camps. Not to compare and contrast who does more and who does less good. Not to point at who did more "evil" or less "evil".
You see living is trusting and trusting is respecting and this constitutes true love. Anything less is less.
I find it compelling and rewarding to live my life as if any given moment could be the last. This means to treat all with love and respect. To extend a hand when needed. To extend an ear when it is needed. When I do less than that I cheat myself and others.
So Peace be with us all as we are all fellow humans and only the best is worth having.
Don't accept less, Be Great!
"The remarkable thing is that we really love our neighbor as ourselves: we do unto others as we do unto ourselves. We hate others when we hate ourselves. We are tolerant toward others when we tolerate ourselves. We forgive others when we forgive ourselves. We are prone to sacrifice others when we are ready to sacrifice ourselves." -- Eric Hoffer
Fellowship
Originally posted by chu_bakka
How spooky is it that Pat Roberstson is telling everyone that god is telling him that god wants bush re-elected.
That's beyond the realm of "spooky", resting firmly in the lands of "psychotic". One flew over Pat's House.
Respect, tolerance and empathy.
Most religions have that as a core teaching.
it sounds like talking about your underwear in public.
believe in what ever you want to beleive in, just please don't tell me about it, or at leat don't tell what is right or wrong according to your beliefs. meanwhile, i keep my spiritual concepts in my head and don't bore you.
just as a curiousity, not a new test but test which religions think like YOU THINK (not the other way). just answer what makes sense to your inner views (forget what you have been told to), and tell me what you get.
http://www.selectsmart.com/RELIGION
Originally posted by chu_bakka
Well said.
Respect, tolerance and empathy.
Most religions have that as a core teaching.
And most (of the big ones) get into the "mine is better than yours" routine. And many of the officials of big religion take the teachings of their founders and do a 180º....to achieve aims decried by their founders. For example Pat Robertson's approach to "Christianity".
In the Middle Eastern Milieu of the dawn of Islam it really was just these religions versus idol-worship which was held as demonstrably untrue because it involved the worship of artefacts created by man
Just not true. such a statement is but the propaganda of "true godists."
I know of no religion where an object was created by man and then that object was worshipped as THE creator.
what the so called monotheists have never understood are the polytheists idea that one can represent God or lesser divinites through objects. For example in vodun /Ifa/ Santeria there are many objects that are representative of God or messengers there are offerings put regularly on alters where these images may be. Yet if one of those images, carvings etc are broken, it is discarded and another put in its place. One would be a fool to think that the people involved in such a religion actually believe that this disposable object is indeed God.
Just another way of looking at "religions"
Originally posted by Nightcrawler
1. It offers me a great inner stability to believe that there is a God and only one God....
A laundry list of "features" is hardly a good reason to follow a religion. Yet I hear this same "reasoning" time and time again, and for a wide variety of religions.
"Gee, wouldn't it by nice if..." and "It makes me feel loved/special/like I have a purpose/etc." doesn't have a thing to do with whether a given set of beliefs has any basis in truth.
Feel as internally stable as you like, your feelings won't change whether the real universe around you has zero, one, or many gods.
Finding something that you feel good about has nothing to do with deeply searching out truth -- although many people seem to have the high opinion of themselves that they have some easy-to-use, built-in Truth Detector such that, without fuss, muss, or bother, they'll be able to recognize Truth simply by the warm and fuzzy feeling they get when they encounter it.
Originally posted by segovius
Didn't say the idols were worshipped as 'the creator' - just that they were worshipped after being created.
The "idols" were worshipped about as much as Crosses and pictures of Jesus are worshipped.
From an Islamic view it matters not what the idols signified - they could have signified 'one God' - the fact was in the giving form to a being that is unknowable.
This line of thought applies to doctrine as well btw, as I have pointed out above. Basically we can never know God - to try to define such an entity is an attempt at limitation.
This is also wrong thinking. For example in Ifa, Olodumare (what would be the equivalent to God) is represented by a rock. That simply indicates that Olodumare is "the foundation.: not very descriptive is it and in no way a definitive all encompasing description of God as much as "God is most great". even the name Olodumare 'Owner of the Secrets" indicates that in Ifa even the name of "God" indicates things "mere mortals" could not know.
So again what we have is one religion assuming what others are doing based on the assumption that ones own way of thinking is "correct" and others that don't follow the specifics of that religion some how "have it wrong."
Originally posted by segovius
I think we may be at cross purposes.
Basically this tribe had set up numerous idols in the Ka'aba precinct and did indeed worship them. The nature of the idols, what and who they represented as well as the ritual form of worship is quite well documented. Essentially, it was what we might call a 'protection racket' with certain idols having to be propitiated with material goods and funds or else 'paid' to perform favours.
Therein lies the initial disagreement with Muhammad who proclaimed (rightly imo) these practices to be both immoral and unecessary for a deity - although obviously very necessary for their human guardians.
This is also the root of the initial violence in Islam as the tribes did not take kindly to Muhammad spreading a doctrine that could concievably put them out of business and they therefore attempted to oust him militarily.
On a sidenote, interestingly there is some significant evidence that the triple moon goddess that was the center of this cult was later amalgamated into Christianity as the trinity and the divine mother aspect transmuted into the Mary cult.
a) while I agree with you on what Muhammed did, that last paragraph is compeletelt wrong. Teh Egyptian Mystery system is the source of the mary cult and many other "Christian" symbols.
Originally posted by segovius
I think we may be at cross purposes.
The Islamic conception of polytheism stems (almost) entriely from the activities of the Quraish tribe as the then guardians of the Ka'aba in Mecca (later to become the Islamic place of pilgrimage) at the beginning of the seventh century.
That may be true in the immediate cultural sense per Muhammed's time. However the general condemnation of "Idols" predates Muhammed by many thousands of years. And since by Muhammed's claim, Islam is the "last" of the "Religions of the Book" Islam must owe much of it's ideas to the religions that are ancestral to it.
Originally posted by Giaguara
tell me what you get.
no big surprise. secular humanism.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Without getting into any "religion" I would like to address this thread.
I think the principle goal we should have as fellow humans living on this ball of life called earth is to respect and love all. Not to divide ourselves into camps. Not to compare and contrast who does more and who does less good. Not to point at who did more "evil" or less "evil".
You see living is trusting and trusting is respecting and this constitutes true love. Anything less is less.
I find it compelling and rewarding to live my life as if any given moment could be the last. This means to treat all with love and respect. To extend a hand when needed. To extend an ear when it is needed. When I do less than that I cheat myself and others.
So Peace be with us all as we are all fellow humans and only the best is worth having.
Don't accept less, Be Great!
"The remarkable thing is that we really love our neighbor as ourselves: we do unto others as we do unto ourselves. We hate others when we hate ourselves. We are tolerant toward others when we tolerate ourselves. We forgive others when we forgive ourselves. We are prone to sacrifice others when we are ready to sacrifice ourselves." -- Eric Hoffer
Fellowship
That's a crock. To justify any of it you have to tell me what you really think about lesbians. Then we can talk about how sincere you are.