guys are either born with it or they're not. nothing you can do about it if you're on the short end of the stick so to speak.
and nothing you have to do if you aren't.
Unfortunately, women are resorting to starving themselves both literally and figuratively and permanently altering the physical characteristics of their bodies through every imaginable type of surgery. Many eating disorders and plastic surgeries result from the very effort you encourage. I'm certain that was not the effort you had in mind, but it's the inevitable result of a body-image conscious (perhaps obsessed?) culture.
With all due respect, are you going to tell me that you've never felt unjustly pressured to look like a cover girl? If you are, you've got to be the exception, not the rule. I think society does have an ideal body image, and women shouldn't have to succumb to it just because they feel unjustly guilty about it. Yes, exercising is generally good. But what about the woman who exercises and still doesn't look thin, nevermind look like a movie star? That type of woman might always feel pressured and no amount of exercise could change that. So I think your conclusion is rather naïve, especially coming from a woman, the sex that probably feels the pressure of an ideal body image more than a man. Of course all of that is changing as more men are pressured to do the same. Right Nick?
Hi Shawn - I'm surprised that you seem so annoyed by my suggestion that women should get in shape. I think every person should try to look their best physically...for the health benefits as well as the social benefits. Believe me, if a woman does aerobics and weight machines for long enough, she WILL get in shape. And she'll feel wonderful, self-confident and filled with energy.
And as a female who used to model, I know that any woman can completely change her appearance with the right make-up. Maybe as a guy you are not aware how unbelievably dramatic the change can be from make-up and hairstyle designed exactly for a particular woman's face and bone structure. It is JUST amazing. I would venture to say that many women could be beautiful, and most could be very attractive with the right transformation. For buck teeth and receding chins, they would need dental/surgical assistance, and should GET it! But for most other appearance situations, the right make-up and hairstyle, coupled with being in shape, should do the trick.
ShawnJ: fasting, eating ungodly special diets (can we say protein shakes as the only food source?), purging of food, body liquids, etc (laxatives and diuretics), steroids, and more and more commonly, surgery... I've seen them all being used by men. A lot. Please don't paint this as strictly a female problem, because it's not.
Hi Shawn - I'm surprised that you seem so annoyed by my suggestion that women should get in shape. I think every person should try to look their best physically...for the health benefits as well as the social benefits. Believe me, if a woman does aerobics and weight machines for long enough, she WILL get in shape. And she'll feel wonderful, self-confident and filled with energy.
And as a female who used to model, I know that any woman can completely change her appearance with the right make-up. Maybe as a guy you are not aware how unbelievably dramatic the change can be from make-up and hairstyle designed exactly for a particular woman's face and bone structure. It is JUST amazing. I would venture to say that many women could be beautiful, and most could be very attractive with the right transformation. For buck teeth and receding chins, they would need dental/surgical assistance, and should GET it! But for most other appearance situations, the right make-up and hairstyle, coupled with being in shape, should do the trick.
You're going to hear this a lot at Apple Outsider. What you just argued was a classic strawman fallacy (Person A has position X. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).) Not surprisingly, I generally agree with what you just wrote. With all due respect, Carol, I think I made it clear what I was "annoyed" at: the ideal body image for women (and even men) and your naive elevation of exercise to solve the problem.
ShawnJ: fasting, eating ungodly special diets (can we say protein shakes as the only food source?), purging of food, body liquids, etc (laxatives and diuretics), steroids, and more and more commonly, surgery... I've seen them all being used by men. A lot. Please don't paint this as strictly a female problem, because it's not.
I completely agree, Kickaha, and let me just say that I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussions in the past. Check one of my previous posts in this thread for a full and proper qualification that men too are feeling the ill-effects, if you will, of the ideal body image problem.
Ted Bundy: it's like how people are anxious to blame KMFDM and Doom for the Columbine shooters. The vast majority of males seem to like this stuff as kids and they turn out just fine. The screw up is in the killers' heads. You could play My Little Pony and have tea parties for playtime their whole lives and they would still be messed up.
If you listen to music, look at art or walk through architecture, you notice the same phenomenon: music gets more flourished and baroque to keep people and artists stimulated. That is, it follows this path until the cycle starts over and the artists and people rediscover the fundamentals of the medium.
You go through this with regard to sex with or without porn. Sex starts out fresh and stimulating, then to keep it that way, it gets more elaborate. Then sex gets to be routine, you're in a rut, then eventually you rediscover the fun of it like it's new again. Porn probably just accelerates the process, or maybe it keeps people stuck in that rut. I imagine that porn would be a well spring of good ideas, but as others have said, the porn industry isn't exactly a melting pot of stimulating or intelligent people for the most part (I wouldn't be surprised if there were notable exceptions either), and so the stuff that's made in porn is as imaginative as the people who make it are.
as for the tragically image conscious, a lot of women are doing stupid stuff to themselves thinking that they're making themselves more attractive and they they have to do this. I doubt many are looking to porn stars as their inspiration. I imagine it's harder to hide anything that's less than perfect in porn. I can't imagine that most porn stars are good examples of attractive women, and I'd be even more surprised if most women felt that that's what passes as attractive. If they all look like Jenna Jameson, then they have nasty fake boobs, fake lips and who knows what else that looks like 60's modern furniture on their bodies (at least she isn't a waif if Jameson is a porn superstar). Do any men think that looks good?
True, not at all a gender specific problem. But it is sad that we have sunk this low. I hate to see how people treat their bodies in search of that ever illusive smaller waist line. People think they are living healthy, but really are not. Although I hardly think porn is to blame for that. True, we are a society exposed to sexual images other sexual type things, but a small portion of that comes from porn, a larger and more influential part comes from pop culture.
The sad thing is that despite being a sexually exposed culture, we are hardly sexually enlightened. Sex can be an amazing thing, it treated with the respect and admiration that it deserves. We as a society abuse sex. It is horrible how much we try to repress sex in the world when it should be something we embrace.
I'm a simple kind of guy myself. I find beauty in people that a lot of times others don't see. But I was lucky enough to get the most beautiful girl in the world (both inside and out) and I've never been happier.
There are very few attractive porn stars out there, and like you said (and I forgot to include in my last post) most women don't look to porn stars as roll models, and with good reason.
Indeed, and the American pop consciousness is so... *infantile* when it comes to sex. The entire thrust (huh huh) is that sex is dirty, to be kept closeted, to be something ashamed of... so, just like kids, we glamorize it while saying its wrong, we blow it *all* out of proportion thinking it's the neatest thing since sliced bread, and basically take it way too far. We're so desperate to show that we're not repressed (*snort*) that we shove it in people's faces.
Take European beaches - topless is normal. Why? Because it's no big deal - it was never kept as a thing to titter about (sorry), but just something of everyday life.
Sex is normal. People's variations on sex are normal. "Your kink is fine.... waaaaaaay over there..."
With all due respect, are you going to tell me that you've never felt unjustly pressured to look like a cover girl? If you are, you've got to be the exception, not the rule. I think society does have an ideal body image, and women shouldn't have to succumb to it just because they feel unjustly guilty about it. Yes, exercising is generally good. But what about the woman who exercises and still doesn't look thin, nevermind look like a movie star? That type of woman might always feel pressured and no amount of exercise could change that. So I think your conclusion is rather naïve, especially coming from a woman, the sex that probably feels the pressure of an ideal body image more than a man. Of course all of that is changing as more men are pressured to do the same. Right Nick?
Well I would argue in some ways that it has become easier for women to capitalize on their beauty and in some ways obviously it has become harder. I think there are much broader definitions of beautiful with regard race/hair and eye color, even to some degree for body types.
The flip side of it, is that with the acceptance of so many more "winners" it becomes harder to stand out and so they have to up the stakes. Thus as Naomi mentioned you have starlets, who are obviously already beautiful by just about any measure, having to make references to learning to strip to get a step ahead in the innuendo game so to speak.
The changing with regard to men is much more different than body image issues. They are having to learn to deal with gender advocacy for themselves among the many institutions/laws that have crept up the last few decades. Men, for example are learning to press for health issue funding, equal custody, right to parent/not parent, and insuring that laws that help stop women from being victimized don't create a whole new sea of victims in their wake.
I think they are trying to insure more choices for themselves than just work. If that means adopting some female attributes or forcing females to consider or possibly take on some previously male attributes, it will happen over time. But of course it will be a very interesting ride in between. The early male versions of some of these attempts will likely look as bad as females wearing skinny ties and shoulder pads did from the eighties. Only instead of fashion, it will be rhetoric and advocacy. It will initially come out quite bad and unpolished, but over time, I think it will become polished, convincing, and accepted.
as for the tragically image conscious, a lot of women are doing stupid stuff to themselves thinking that they're making themselves more attractive and they they have to do this. I doubt many are looking to porn stars as their inspiration. I imagine it's harder to hide anything that's less than perfect in porn. I can't imagine that most porn stars are good examples of attractive women, and I'd be even more surprised if most women felt that that's what passes as attractive. If they all look like Jenna Jameson, then they have nasty fake boobs, fake lips and who knows what else that looks like 60's modern furniture on their bodies (at least she isn't a waif if Jameson is a porn superstar). Do any men think that looks good?
I think porn stars embody (sometimes exaggeratedly) what our society finds attractive in women (and men!). Large anatomical features such as breasts, butts, and "curves" perhaps. American pornography will be different than Japanese pornography for the most part. Societal differences in what constitutes an ideal body image account for the differences. (bah can't get that sentence quite right) For instance, Jenna Jameson in the United States as opposed to an anonymous young school girl in Japan. (Yes, Japanese women try to act ridiculously and coquettishly YOUNGER because that's what its society wants).
I wish the US had a more relaxed ideology about sex, although I think the amount of premarital sex in the world is deplorable, but thats another thread altogether. I don't think that relaxed attitudes lead to more sex, rather, a better understanding of this amazing thing.
Sex is a weird thing. It's the most fun you can have, well, most of the time. At the same time, it carries huge potential consequences and emotional baggage. So you don't want to scare people but it can have scary repercussions. You want it to be fun and lighthearted but not irresponsible. A lot of people seem to take it as one way or another, and it's probably the most complex, an apparently paradoxical human activity next to falling in love.
Sex is how we know God is laughing at our expense.
Sex is a weird thing. It's the most fun you can have, well, most of the time. At the same time, it carries huge potential consequences and emotional baggage. So you don't want to scare people but it can have scary repercussions. You want it to be fun and lighthearted but not irresponsible. A lot of people seem to take it as one way or another, and it's probably the most complex, an apparently paradoxical human activity next to falling in love.
Sex is how we know God is laughing at our expense.
Exactly. I'm not saying that we should tell our kids that sex is okay, it has no consequences...but we should be more relaxed about it. We scare kids with the sex talks now, it shouldn't be that way. I grew up thinking it was wrong, till I was about 12 and I realized that I could think on my own and the parents didn't control my mind. I look at sex as the ultimate expression of love for another human being, there is nothing beyond it. I think sex is an amazing thing, but believe in premarital abstinence at the same time. Don't find too many out there like me.
American pornography will be different than Japanese pornography for the most part. Societal differences in what constitutes an ideal body image account for the differences.
Good point about the cultural impact on the concept of beauty. Christopher Wren wrote that there are two kinds of beauty: natural and national. It can be very hard to separate the two, and actually his treatise was about edifying the reader about the difference.
Still, how many people do you know that find fake boobs attractive in real life? How many men end up falling in love with a woman with big boobs? Firm boobs? Whatever the criteria we hear about, it just seems that we like to show one thing but we either look for other things in more intimate and personal circumstances or we settle for less. That's not to say that plenty of people do put themselves at risk for that perfect body, and that there aren't plenty of people who look for or demand that appearance out of their partners. It's just not as many as Hollywood would like to believe.
I can't imagine watching a porno and even bothering to compare Girlie XXX with the woman I'm with. It's like understanding as a kid that GI Joe shooting people is nothing like a real person shooting people. One is fantasy and the other is realty, and most people can separate the two. Maybe I just lead a sheltered life.
I agree with you BuonRotto. But it sucks that so many people are content with settling for less. It took me years to find a girl, because I wouldn't settle for anything less than what I deserved. I didn't go for looks, relationships can't survive on looks for more than a day. I fell for this girl because of who she was, and I don't regret a single second that I spent alone waiting for her. I don't know if she is the one, but I've never felt this way about someone before. We have something amazing and none of it is based on sex at all.
...well, it's you guys who have to say whether you think porn has deadened your libidos, right? So, what do you guys think? Has it? Maybe for some it has, and for some it hasn't.
I can honestly say I think the article's right on for me.
No matter what anyone says, a big part of the desire to date is the primal urge to carry on the species. I think I would feel more pressure to find a significant other if I didn't have easy access to images of women I find very attractive doing all sorts of sexy things (preferably to each other.)
I also think on some level porn, and just the constant bombarding of sexual imagery in the media in general has had an effect on the type of girl I find initially physically attractive.
Comments
Originally posted by alcimedes
hey, at least women can make an effort.
guys are either born with it or they're not. nothing you can do about it if you're on the short end of the stick so to speak.
and nothing you have to do if you aren't.
Unfortunately, women are resorting to starving themselves both literally and figuratively and permanently altering the physical characteristics of their bodies through every imaginable type of surgery. Many eating disorders and plastic surgeries result from the very effort you encourage. I'm certain that was not the effort you had in mind, but it's the inevitable result of a body-image conscious (perhaps obsessed?) culture.
Said by our former minister of culture on the day she was installed, married to the leader of the opposition and soon to be prime minister.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
With all due respect, are you going to tell me that you've never felt unjustly pressured to look like a cover girl? If you are, you've got to be the exception, not the rule. I think society does have an ideal body image, and women shouldn't have to succumb to it just because they feel unjustly guilty about it. Yes, exercising is generally good. But what about the woman who exercises and still doesn't look thin, nevermind look like a movie star? That type of woman might always feel pressured and no amount of exercise could change that. So I think your conclusion is rather naïve, especially coming from a woman, the sex that probably feels the pressure of an ideal body image more than a man. Of course all of that is changing as more men are pressured to do the same. Right Nick?
Hi Shawn - I'm surprised that you seem so annoyed by my suggestion that women should get in shape. I think every person should try to look their best physically...for the health benefits as well as the social benefits. Believe me, if a woman does aerobics and weight machines for long enough, she WILL get in shape. And she'll feel wonderful, self-confident and filled with energy.
And as a female who used to model, I know that any woman can completely change her appearance with the right make-up. Maybe as a guy you are not aware how unbelievably dramatic the change can be from make-up and hairstyle designed exactly for a particular woman's face and bone structure. It is JUST amazing. I would venture to say that many women could be beautiful, and most could be very attractive with the right transformation. For buck teeth and receding chins, they would need dental/surgical assistance, and should GET it! But for most other appearance situations, the right make-up and hairstyle, coupled with being in shape, should do the trick.
ShawnJ: fasting, eating ungodly special diets (can we say protein shakes as the only food source?), purging of food, body liquids, etc (laxatives and diuretics), steroids, and more and more commonly, surgery... I've seen them all being used by men. A lot. Please don't paint this as strictly a female problem, because it's not.
Originally posted by Carol A
Hi Shawn - I'm surprised that you seem so annoyed by my suggestion that women should get in shape. I think every person should try to look their best physically...for the health benefits as well as the social benefits. Believe me, if a woman does aerobics and weight machines for long enough, she WILL get in shape. And she'll feel wonderful, self-confident and filled with energy.
And as a female who used to model, I know that any woman can completely change her appearance with the right make-up. Maybe as a guy you are not aware how unbelievably dramatic the change can be from make-up and hairstyle designed exactly for a particular woman's face and bone structure. It is JUST amazing. I would venture to say that many women could be beautiful, and most could be very attractive with the right transformation. For buck teeth and receding chins, they would need dental/surgical assistance, and should GET it! But for most other appearance situations, the right make-up and hairstyle, coupled with being in shape, should do the trick.
You're going to hear this a lot at Apple Outsider.
Originally posted by Kickaha
*clap clap*
ShawnJ: fasting, eating ungodly special diets (can we say protein shakes as the only food source?), purging of food, body liquids, etc (laxatives and diuretics), steroids, and more and more commonly, surgery... I've seen them all being used by men. A lot. Please don't paint this as strictly a female problem, because it's not.
I completely agree, Kickaha, and let me just say that I have thoroughly enjoyed our discussions in the past. Check one of my previous posts in this thread for a full and proper qualification that men too are feeling the ill-effects, if you will, of the ideal body image problem.
If you listen to music, look at art or walk through architecture, you notice the same phenomenon: music gets more flourished and baroque to keep people and artists stimulated. That is, it follows this path until the cycle starts over and the artists and people rediscover the fundamentals of the medium.
You go through this with regard to sex with or without porn. Sex starts out fresh and stimulating, then to keep it that way, it gets more elaborate. Then sex gets to be routine, you're in a rut, then eventually you rediscover the fun of it like it's new again. Porn probably just accelerates the process, or maybe it keeps people stuck in that rut. I imagine that porn would be a well spring of good ideas, but as others have said, the porn industry isn't exactly a melting pot of stimulating or intelligent people for the most part (I wouldn't be surprised if there were notable exceptions either), and so the stuff that's made in porn is as imaginative as the people who make it are.
as for the tragically image conscious, a lot of women are doing stupid stuff to themselves thinking that they're making themselves more attractive and they they have to do this. I doubt many are looking to porn stars as their inspiration. I imagine it's harder to hide anything that's less than perfect in porn. I can't imagine that most porn stars are good examples of attractive women, and I'd be even more surprised if most women felt that that's what passes as attractive. If they all look like Jenna Jameson, then they have nasty fake boobs, fake lips and who knows what else that looks like 60's modern furniture on their bodies (at least she isn't a waif if Jameson is a porn superstar). Do any men think that looks good?
The sad thing is that despite being a sexually exposed culture, we are hardly sexually enlightened. Sex can be an amazing thing, it treated with the respect and admiration that it deserves. We as a society abuse sex. It is horrible how much we try to repress sex in the world when it should be something we embrace.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
[snip]
Do any men think that looks good?
I'm a simple kind of guy myself. I find beauty in people that a lot of times others don't see. But I was lucky enough to get the most beautiful girl in the world (both inside and out) and I've never been happier.
There are very few attractive porn stars out there, and like you said (and I forgot to include in my last post) most women don't look to porn stars as roll models, and with good reason.
Take European beaches - topless is normal. Why? Because it's no big deal - it was never kept as a thing to titter about (sorry), but just something of everyday life.
Sex is normal. People's variations on sex are normal. "Your kink is fine.... waaaaaaay over there..."
Originally posted by ShawnJ
With all due respect, are you going to tell me that you've never felt unjustly pressured to look like a cover girl? If you are, you've got to be the exception, not the rule. I think society does have an ideal body image, and women shouldn't have to succumb to it just because they feel unjustly guilty about it. Yes, exercising is generally good. But what about the woman who exercises and still doesn't look thin, nevermind look like a movie star? That type of woman might always feel pressured and no amount of exercise could change that. So I think your conclusion is rather naïve, especially coming from a woman, the sex that probably feels the pressure of an ideal body image more than a man. Of course all of that is changing as more men are pressured to do the same. Right Nick?
Well I would argue in some ways that it has become easier for women to capitalize on their beauty and in some ways obviously it has become harder. I think there are much broader definitions of beautiful with regard race/hair and eye color, even to some degree for body types.
The flip side of it, is that with the acceptance of so many more "winners" it becomes harder to stand out and so they have to up the stakes. Thus as Naomi mentioned you have starlets, who are obviously already beautiful by just about any measure, having to make references to learning to strip to get a step ahead in the innuendo game so to speak.
The changing with regard to men is much more different than body image issues. They are having to learn to deal with gender advocacy for themselves among the many institutions/laws that have crept up the last few decades. Men, for example are learning to press for health issue funding, equal custody, right to parent/not parent, and insuring that laws that help stop women from being victimized don't create a whole new sea of victims in their wake.
I think they are trying to insure more choices for themselves than just work. If that means adopting some female attributes or forcing females to consider or possibly take on some previously male attributes, it will happen over time. But of course it will be a very interesting ride in between. The early male versions of some of these attempts will likely look as bad as females wearing skinny ties and shoulder pads did from the eighties. Only instead of fashion, it will be rhetoric and advocacy. It will initially come out quite bad and unpolished, but over time, I think it will become polished, convincing, and accepted.
Nick
Originally posted by BuonRotto
as for the tragically image conscious, a lot of women are doing stupid stuff to themselves thinking that they're making themselves more attractive and they they have to do this. I doubt many are looking to porn stars as their inspiration. I imagine it's harder to hide anything that's less than perfect in porn. I can't imagine that most porn stars are good examples of attractive women, and I'd be even more surprised if most women felt that that's what passes as attractive. If they all look like Jenna Jameson, then they have nasty fake boobs, fake lips and who knows what else that looks like 60's modern furniture on their bodies (at least she isn't a waif if Jameson is a porn superstar). Do any men think that looks good?
I think porn stars embody (sometimes exaggeratedly) what our society finds attractive in women (and men!). Large anatomical features such as breasts, butts, and "curves" perhaps. American pornography will be different than Japanese pornography for the most part. Societal differences in what constitutes an ideal body image account for the differences. (bah can't get that sentence quite right) For instance, Jenna Jameson in the United States as opposed to an anonymous young school girl in Japan. (Yes, Japanese women try to act ridiculously and coquettishly YOUNGER because that's what its society wants).
Sex is how we know God is laughing at our expense.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Please don't paint this as strictly a female problem, because it's not.
Proportionately it is though.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Sex is a weird thing. It's the most fun you can have, well, most of the time. At the same time, it carries huge potential consequences and emotional baggage. So you don't want to scare people but it can have scary repercussions. You want it to be fun and lighthearted but not irresponsible. A lot of people seem to take it as one way or another, and it's probably the most complex, an apparently paradoxical human activity next to falling in love.
Sex is how we know God is laughing at our expense.
Exactly. I'm not saying that we should tell our kids that sex is okay, it has no consequences...but we should be more relaxed about it. We scare kids with the sex talks now, it shouldn't be that way. I grew up thinking it was wrong, till I was about 12 and I realized that I could think on my own and the parents didn't control my mind.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
American pornography will be different than Japanese pornography for the most part. Societal differences in what constitutes an ideal body image account for the differences.
Good point about the cultural impact on the concept of beauty. Christopher Wren wrote that there are two kinds of beauty: natural and national. It can be very hard to separate the two, and actually his treatise was about edifying the reader about the difference.
Still, how many people do you know that find fake boobs attractive in real life? How many men end up falling in love with a woman with big boobs? Firm boobs? Whatever the criteria we hear about, it just seems that we like to show one thing but we either look for other things in more intimate and personal circumstances or we settle for less.
I can't imagine watching a porno and even bothering to compare Girlie XXX with the woman I'm with. It's like understanding as a kid that GI Joe shooting people is nothing like a real person shooting people. One is fantasy and the other is realty, and most people can separate the two. Maybe I just lead a sheltered life.
Originally posted by DMBand0026
I think sex is an amazing thing, but believe in premarital abstinence at the same time. Don't find too many out there like me.
Natural selection, I suppose.
Originally posted by Carol A
...well, it's you guys who have to say whether you think porn has deadened your libidos, right? So, what do you guys think? Has it? Maybe for some it has, and for some it hasn't.
I can honestly say I think the article's right on for me.
No matter what anyone says, a big part of the desire to date is the primal urge to carry on the species. I think I would feel more pressure to find a significant other if I didn't have easy access to images of women I find very attractive doing all sorts of sexy things (preferably to each other.)
I also think on some level porn, and just the constant bombarding of sexual imagery in the media in general has had an effect on the type of girl I find initially physically attractive.
Jeff