Are you a cheater?
Do we have a cheating culture, as this book argues?
I was thinking about this when I heard about the Republicans stealing those judiciary committee files from the server. The argument from the Republican side is that they did it because they could: "He also argued that the only wrongdoing was on the part of the Democrats -- both for the content of their memos, and for their negligence in placing them where they could be seen." There are plenty of examples on the other political side, Clinton's lying for one.
People like to say that politicians are all lousy liars, but are they really so different from us? This book argues that it's all over American culture.
When I was in college, I cheated on the final of a course my Freshman year. The class was offered at 2 different times, and my final was later than the other class's final. So I went in to the first final (a big lecture hall), sat down with the exam for an hour, and left with the test when there was a big group getting up and leaving. Then I went back a couple hours later, and took it for real. Easiest thing in the world, very little danger of getting caught.
I still think about that all the time, even though it was 10 years ago now. Why the fsck would I do that? It was my best class that semester, and I had an A in the course. I was in great shape for the final, and didn't need to cheat to get an A. I guess it was just the knowledge that I could get away with it. But it also disgusts me when I think of it.
And that's one of the themes of that cheating book: that often it's the successful people who do the most cheating. You become so outcome-oriented, that whatever edge you can get, you take it. We have such an emphasis on results in our culture. Parents are picking out frickin pre-schools with the idea of getting their kids into a good college. How do you resist the temptation to bend the rules to get better results, in that kind of environment? What pressures are there to stop us from cheating? Fear of getting caught? The bad feeling you get when you do it? Religion? A belief that the Karma will come and get you? They all seem relatively weak compared to the pressure on performance and outcomes.
Quote:
Your next-door neighbor offers to hook you up with free cable television. Or, when you unexpectedly owe hundreds of dollars in taxes, your accountant advises you to make up deductions, since "the IRS doesn't audit anyone." Do you do it?
David Callahan thinks many of us would. And we wouldn?t be alone. While there have always been those who cut corners, cheating has risen in the last two decades: corporate scandals, doping in sports, plagiarizing by journalists and students. Even ministers have been caught stealing sermons off the Internet. Why all the cheating? And why now?
Your next-door neighbor offers to hook you up with free cable television. Or, when you unexpectedly owe hundreds of dollars in taxes, your accountant advises you to make up deductions, since "the IRS doesn't audit anyone." Do you do it?
David Callahan thinks many of us would. And we wouldn?t be alone. While there have always been those who cut corners, cheating has risen in the last two decades: corporate scandals, doping in sports, plagiarizing by journalists and students. Even ministers have been caught stealing sermons off the Internet. Why all the cheating? And why now?
I was thinking about this when I heard about the Republicans stealing those judiciary committee files from the server. The argument from the Republican side is that they did it because they could: "He also argued that the only wrongdoing was on the part of the Democrats -- both for the content of their memos, and for their negligence in placing them where they could be seen." There are plenty of examples on the other political side, Clinton's lying for one.
People like to say that politicians are all lousy liars, but are they really so different from us? This book argues that it's all over American culture.
When I was in college, I cheated on the final of a course my Freshman year. The class was offered at 2 different times, and my final was later than the other class's final. So I went in to the first final (a big lecture hall), sat down with the exam for an hour, and left with the test when there was a big group getting up and leaving. Then I went back a couple hours later, and took it for real. Easiest thing in the world, very little danger of getting caught.
I still think about that all the time, even though it was 10 years ago now. Why the fsck would I do that? It was my best class that semester, and I had an A in the course. I was in great shape for the final, and didn't need to cheat to get an A. I guess it was just the knowledge that I could get away with it. But it also disgusts me when I think of it.
And that's one of the themes of that cheating book: that often it's the successful people who do the most cheating. You become so outcome-oriented, that whatever edge you can get, you take it. We have such an emphasis on results in our culture. Parents are picking out frickin pre-schools with the idea of getting their kids into a good college. How do you resist the temptation to bend the rules to get better results, in that kind of environment? What pressures are there to stop us from cheating? Fear of getting caught? The bad feeling you get when you do it? Religion? A belief that the Karma will come and get you? They all seem relatively weak compared to the pressure on performance and outcomes.
Comments
However i passed a lot time, to engrave the pen, so i knew the formula by heart. This gave me a lesson : it's easier to learn, than try to cheat (at least for me).
I just finished a Computer Networking exam today... (CCNA) and I wrote some info on the back side of my calculator but during the exam I was a afraid of getting caught so I did not cheat... when it came to the part of the exam where the info was of use I found that writing it down made me remember what I needed to know. I will find out the results in a few weeks but I think I got in the high 90's.
And the fact that people cheat is not really news. They've been talking about how we're a "nation of cheaters" for as long as I can remember. The fact is, everyone is a cheater. Everyone wants to get ahead at any cost. Is that inherently bad? Not really. It's that same desire that pushes society forward.
What's the big deal?
To get back on topic, I stole a piece of bubble gum from a store when I was four years old. My mother found the stolen goods (in a wad between my teeth) and marched me back to the store. Once at the store, she made me give a speech where I apologized to the store owner, paid him the nickel that I owed him, and left. I haven't stolen anything or cheated on anything since. Very empowering.
Thank you very much, Mom. I love you forever.
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Powerdoc
I tried to cheat in the final exam of medecine in chemestry. I take a translucid plastic pen and imprint some chemestry formulas in it. During the exam i did not suceed to read anything on the pen ; the engraving was too small to be read without a bright lighting.
However i passed a lot time, to engrave the pen, so i knew the formula by heart. This gave me a lesson : it's easier to learn, than try to cheat (at least for me).
That's a great story. I think it's true that often people spend more time devising cheating or illegal methods of getting ahead when they could instead have spent that time getting ahead in a legitimate way.
Originally posted by groverat
Cheating is about as unique to America as taking a shit is.
Nice analogy.
Originally posted by Aries 1B
I am mystified by the Democrats' outrage at what they perceive as theft of property. Haven't they been preaching against private property forever? They've been made to share with the other kids just like the NEA tells kids in school to do. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."
What's the big deal?
Are you talking about the files the Republicans took and distributed? Yeah, that's just like communism. And the Dems and the teachers union of course want the abolishment of private property. So you're right, there really is an inconsistency in that.
To get back on topic, I stole a piece of bubble gum from a store when I was four years old. My mother found the stolen goods (in a wad between my teeth) and marched me back to the store. Once at the store, she made me give a speech where I apologized to the store owner, paid him the nickel that I owed him, and left. I haven't stolen anything or cheated on anything since. Very empowering.
You've never bent the rules to get ahead, ever? How do you it? What motivates you? Assuming we believe you, that is.
Originally posted by Ganondorf
Sometimes in certain classes, profs just don't seem to care. In Intro American Government, my prof literally walked out of the room for what seemed like 20-30 minutes while the _final_ was out.
I think that's true. Just a little disincentive goes a long way. Make it too easy, and people who otherwise would never do it take the opportunity.
And the fact that people cheat is not really news. They've been talking about how we're a "nation of cheaters" for as long as I can remember. The fact is, everyone is a cheater. Everyone wants to get ahead at any cost. Is that inherently bad? Not really. It's that same desire that pushes society forward.
But shouldn't HOW you get there be as important, or more important, than THAT you get there?
Originally posted by BRussell
Nice analogy.
I think this occurs simply because our lives are all connected so much more than they use to be. Also they are connected in many more ways than they HAVE to be.
Here is an example I pondered recently. My house is 2000 sq ft and is located in a rural area here in California. I've thought about adding on to the house over the garage. If this were 100 years ago, this would have been relatively easy. Now I have to deal with the county for permits, the addition has to be drafted. I likely have to deal with a contractor or someone who could pass the test but hasn't with regard to all the building codes. I have to deal with the tax assessor for the county and pay an increase in property taxes and also a fee per square foot in school fees. Etc, etc, etc.
Now of all the parties I deal with, just one of them pretty much can hang up the deal for a period of time or even ruin it.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
I think this occurs simply because our lives are all connected so much more than they use to be. Also they are connected in many more ways than they HAVE to be.
I think I get what you're saying. Maybe too many rules, especially if they seem arbitrary, lead to a willingness to bend the rules. I'm not sure that accounts for things like cheating in college, but it could account for some corporate cheating, cheating on taxes, and the like.
Originally posted by BRussell
You've never bent the rules to get ahead, ever? How do you it? What motivates you? Assuming we believe you, that is.
I'd be in worse shape being 'ahead' if I lacked the knowledge honestly and functionally required to be ahead.
Management called in some Expert Consultants to help them to run my place of employment. What that told me and everyone else in the company who had slowly and carefully built up their work knowledge was that the good-looking, well dressed, smoothtalking sonsabitches who looked down their noses at us as 'losers' didn't know what they were doing (obvious from the string of mistakes that they had going). Finally, Upper Management gassed them all. Don't know what bridges they're sleeping under and, frankly, I don't care. I most earnestly, calmly and sincerely hope that, to a man and to a woman, they and their families freeze and starve to death.
You can't fake reality. Ask the crew of the space shuttle Columbia .
Did you see the tapes from Mission Control when they lost signal? Those good-looking, young fresh managerial faces going slack with shock? The same managers who had discounted the concerns of their technical experts because the concerns would make them look bad?
You cannot manage what you do not understand and you will not understand that which you seek to manage until you have gotten your hands bloody on and in it.
(pant, pant)
Thanks for listening. Believe me or do not believe me; I do not care.
Aries 1B
Originally posted by BRussell
I think I get what you're saying. Maybe too many rules, especially if they seem arbitrary, lead to a willingness to bend the rules. I'm not sure that accounts for things like cheating in college, but it could account for some corporate cheating, cheating on taxes, and the like.
Perhaps, but there are reasons for most of these rules. It is nice to think of a time 100 years ago when many such rules might not have existed, but life has changed since then. We do not anymore live as independent entities in rural communities (or, if not independent, at least dependent back then only on the goodwill of immediate neighbours). We live in a highly-socialized, largely urban societies which require rules if competing interests are to be best accommodated.
I agree that many people like to put themselves above the rules and my general impression is that this is getting worse. I think that this is partly a reaction directly against the highly-socialized, interdependent urban lives that we lead. While this is perhaps understandable, the result, in my view, is chaos.
Originally posted by Ganondorf
The fact is, everyone is a cheater. Everyone wants to get ahead at any cost. Is that inherently bad? Not really. It's that same desire that pushes society forward.
Not everyone is a cheater. I don't cheat.
The idea of cheating crossed my mind once during a high school chemistry test, but I didn't do it ; I never cheated in school.
I studied hard in high school and college, and my good grades were a source of personal satisfaction for me. I didn't care if anyone else knew about how well I did, because my effort was in meeting the challenges for myself. When one works for his/her own satisfaction, cheating would be ridiculous. So I never did it, and never wanted to.
I hope that doesn't sound self-righteous and pompous. It probably does. But learning meant a lot to me, and still does. I also love meeting challenges, and testing my abilities. I think it's exciting and fun. It makes me feel alive, strong, competent and happy.
I have never cheated on my significant other(s) either. I'm just not that kind of person. If I want to start seeing other people, I would just tell him, and end the relationship if that became necessary.
Originally posted by Ganondorf
The fact is, everyone is a cheater. Everyone wants to get ahead at any cost.
You couldn't be more wrong.
Originally posted by Carol A
Not everyone is a cheater. I don't cheat.
The idea of cheating crossed my mind once during a high school chemistry test, but I didn't do it ; I never cheated in school.
I studied hard in high school and college, and my good grades were a source of personal satisfaction for me. I didn't care if anyone else knew about how well I did, because my effort was in meeting the challenges for myself. When one works for his/her own satisfaction, cheating would be ridiculous. So I never did it, and never wanted to.
I hope that doesn't sound self-righteous and pompous. It probably does. But learning meant a lot to me, and still does. I also love meeting challenges, and testing my abilities. I think it's exciting and fun. It makes me feel alive, strong, competent and happy.
I have never cheated on my significant other(s) either. I'm just not that kind of person. If I want to start seeing other people, I would just tell him, and end the relationship if that became necessary.
Ms. Carol, that is the BEST post I've seen on these boards. I'm going to print it and show it to the wife and kids so that the kids can see that there is at someone outside our family who believes in themself sufficiently not to cheat.
I'm surprised Fellowship isn't all over your post singing your praises. Slacky moderating, that.
I hope that, if you have not done so already, that one day you will read either 'The Fountainhead' or 'Atlas Shrugged' by Ayn Rand to understand the full extent of your heroism. You're in for a 'feel-good' moment.
In sincere admiration,
Aries 1B
umm...
WhosYourDaddy
no?
Up up Left right down B A!