That's nonsense. You could eat a dog. If you were starving, you could eat a dog. You would, in the end. And you would be choosing to do so. I could never find a woman sexually attractive. Never. Not for a microsecond. No matter how hard I wanted to.
I could never eat a dog I say you. And anyone who could eat one if they starved liked to eat dogs and just didn´t know it.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
It's not a set of boxes, it's a spectrum. People vary from totally homosexual to mostly homosexual to bisexual to mostly heterosexual to totally heterosexual, with incalculable shades of variance between each of those goalposts. But they do not move along that spectrum. Just like the color spectrum, light at a blue wavelength can never be red.
How. Do. You. Know? And please tell me what you say to the people who actually feel that excatly what they did. "Well you just don´t know what you feel my dear. Oh yes by the way. Your really not straight. Thats just something you think you are"
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Because if sexuality were changeable, then it'd only be a matter of time before the gay-hating straight supremecists try to find ways to chemically or psychologically force everyone to be straight, just like their Demon God demands.
Again you confuse moral with science. Do I believe some people are smarter than others? Yes. Should they only be able to vote according to their IQ, get access to education according to their IQ, their voice be heard according to their IQ? No of course not!
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
Because I am gay. They only claim to not be gay because that's what some monster in a pulpit told them they had to be in order for God to love them, and because they have no sense of self-worth they go along with it, back into the closet ? Hell on Earth to escape the 'real' thing later on. Or they were bisexual all along, and were thus never gay in the first place.
So what is true for you are true for anyone else? I thought that was the mentality you were fighting.
You have used yourself as example. I could give you dozens of other that point in the opposite direction. One being one of my closest friends who was lesbian but found a boyfriend no church involved. She didn´t "think" she was lesbian and she doesn´t "think" she is straight. She was and is! Just like a lot of gay people she had a hard childhood in a very small town with a very small amount of acceptence and suffered from that. She found a very concious group here, rather hardcore on their beliefs and just as she got into a milieu that accepted her as homosexual she fell in love with a male! Thats your counter example. She is still very active in that borderline militant milieu and still fight, like a lot of us, for the rights of the non mainstreams. Please tell me she is wrong on her feelings because you and your friends feel something else
i guess i am jumping in midstream, but nothing is really hardwired. You can make someone sexually attracted to members of the same sex. You can also make someone sexually attracted to dogs.
Not that it is known how to do it, but given all of our experiences this idea shouldnt be a surprise.
What the question should be is if there is a predisposition for a particular sexuality at birth. I really cant answer that either because my experiences dictate the way i percieve the world, and what in that world i desire. In this case, I dont consider men or dogs sexually attractive (but sheep on the otherhand ). I do believe that it is possible that there are genes correspond to behavioral aspects of sexuality and hence possibly both "gay" and "straight" genes. But what that means in actual social terms is up for debate and very much a part of society as opposed to biology.
You have used yourself as example. I could give you dozens of other that point in the opposite direction. One being one of my closest friends who was lesbian but found a boyfriend no church involved. She didn´t "think" she was lesbian and she doesn´t "think" she is straight. She was and is! Just like a lot of gay people she had a hard childhood in a very small town with a very small amount of acceptence and suffered from that. She found a very concious group here, rather hardcore on their beliefs and just as she got into a milieu that accepted her as homosexual she fell in love with a male! Thats your counter example. She is still very active in that borderline militant milieu and still fight, like a lot of us, for the rights of the non mainstreams. Please tell me she is wrong on her feelings because you and your friends feel something else
Congratulations, you have a bisexual friend.
Anyone who can be attracted sexually to members of both genders is bisexual. Bisexuals are not gay. Nor are they straight.
Most people are probably bisexual to some degree, though I am certain that I am not.
Anyone who can be attracted sexually to members of both genders is bisexual. Bisexuals are not gay. Nor are they straight.
Most people are probably bisexual to some degree, though I am certain that I am not.
Kirk
She is not bi. She wasn´t attracted to men before and she is not attracted to women now. And now you are gonna come and say "Well she were and is to some degre afterall." No she isn´t/wasn´t
I'll never forget the day I decided to be straight. It was a Tuesday. I think. I'm still waiting on my laminated straight card to come in the mail, though.
I'll never forget the day I decided to be straight. It was a Tuesday. I think. I'm still waiting on my laminated straight card to come in the mail, though.
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Do you know the difference between something being of choice and being social?
Obviously all state laws don't have to agree. However there are laws that do have to agree.
So your money example was wrong. What laws have to agree and why? And how does gay marriage fit in? It's already been established that contracts like this don't follow you from state to state.
Anders, I'm not even sure I understand the question.
People often confuse something that is social to be something they can choose. Thats not the case. Social facts are often as hard hitting as physical laws.
Another way of explaining the same is to divide the world in the objective subjective and intersubjective dimensions. Often the subjective (what I think) and intersubjective (what is given socially) is seen as the same and thats not the case,
If gay people could change into straight people, we all would have long ago, because we all try to "fix ourselves" at some point. Logically, your friend must be bisexual, whether she acknowledges that fact before or now or not.
People often confuse something that is social to be something they can choose. Thats not the case. Social facts are often as hard hitting as physical laws.
Another way of explaining the same is to divide the world in the objective subjective and intersubjective dimensions. Often the subjective (what I think) and intersubjective (what is given socially) is seen as the same and thats not the case,
OK. I think I understand what you're getting at.
The problem is that social conventions are completely arbitrary and change over time.
Again someone other than you is suffering from false consciousness a la Marx when they feel what they feel.
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkland
If gay people could change into straight people, we all would have long ago, because we all try to "fix ourselves" at some point. Logically, your friend must be bisexual, whether she acknowledges that fact before or now or not.
Again you speak on behalf of every homosexual. The world is not like that. Different people have different experiences with homosexuality. Accept that. The arrogance in your argument is not different than that in the claim that homosexuals are just confused and if only they really knew who they were they would fall back into the true nature of their sex
Comments
Originally posted by Kirkland
That's nonsense. You could eat a dog. If you were starving, you could eat a dog. You would, in the end. And you would be choosing to do so. I could never find a woman sexually attractive. Never. Not for a microsecond. No matter how hard I wanted to.
I could never eat a dog I say you. And anyone who could eat one if they starved liked to eat dogs and just didn´t know it.
Originally posted by Kirkland
It's not a set of boxes, it's a spectrum. People vary from totally homosexual to mostly homosexual to bisexual to mostly heterosexual to totally heterosexual, with incalculable shades of variance between each of those goalposts. But they do not move along that spectrum. Just like the color spectrum, light at a blue wavelength can never be red.
How. Do. You. Know? And please tell me what you say to the people who actually feel that excatly what they did. "Well you just don´t know what you feel my dear. Oh yes by the way. Your really not straight. Thats just something you think you are"
Originally posted by Kirkland
Because if sexuality were changeable, then it'd only be a matter of time before the gay-hating straight supremecists try to find ways to chemically or psychologically force everyone to be straight, just like their Demon God demands.
Again you confuse moral with science. Do I believe some people are smarter than others? Yes. Should they only be able to vote according to their IQ, get access to education according to their IQ, their voice be heard according to their IQ? No of course not!
Originally posted by Kirkland
Because I am gay. They only claim to not be gay because that's what some monster in a pulpit told them they had to be in order for God to love them, and because they have no sense of self-worth they go along with it, back into the closet ? Hell on Earth to escape the 'real' thing later on. Or they were bisexual all along, and were thus never gay in the first place.
So what is true for you are true for anyone else? I thought that was the mentality you were fighting.
You have used yourself as example. I could give you dozens of other that point in the opposite direction. One being one of my closest friends who was lesbian but found a boyfriend no church involved. She didn´t "think" she was lesbian and she doesn´t "think" she is straight. She was and is! Just like a lot of gay people she had a hard childhood in a very small town with a very small amount of acceptence and suffered from that. She found a very concious group here, rather hardcore on their beliefs and just as she got into a milieu that accepted her as homosexual she fell in love with a male! Thats your counter example. She is still very active in that borderline militant milieu and still fight, like a lot of us, for the rights of the non mainstreams. Please tell me she is wrong on her feelings because you and your friends feel something else
Not that it is known how to do it, but given all of our experiences this idea shouldnt be a surprise.
What the question should be is if there is a predisposition for a particular sexuality at birth. I really cant answer that either because my experiences dictate the way i percieve the world, and what in that world i desire. In this case, I dont consider men or dogs sexually attractive (but sheep on the otherhand
Originally posted by Anders
I could never eat a dog I say you. And anyone who could eat one if they starved liked to eat dogs and just didn´t know it.
So if a homosexual had sex with someone from the opposite sex, then that person likes to do so and just didn't know it.
Originally posted by Anders
You have used yourself as example. I could give you dozens of other that point in the opposite direction. One being one of my closest friends who was lesbian but found a boyfriend no church involved. She didn´t "think" she was lesbian and she doesn´t "think" she is straight. She was and is! Just like a lot of gay people she had a hard childhood in a very small town with a very small amount of acceptence and suffered from that. She found a very concious group here, rather hardcore on their beliefs and just as she got into a milieu that accepted her as homosexual she fell in love with a male! Thats your counter example. She is still very active in that borderline militant milieu and still fight, like a lot of us, for the rights of the non mainstreams. Please tell me she is wrong on her feelings because you and your friends feel something else
Congratulations, you have a bisexual friend.
Anyone who can be attracted sexually to members of both genders is bisexual. Bisexuals are not gay. Nor are they straight.
Most people are probably bisexual to some degree, though I am certain that I am not.
Kirk
Originally posted by ShawnJ
So if a homosexual had sex with someone from the opposite sex, then that person likes to do so and just didn't know it.
I didn´t mean that sentence. I´ll use more emoticons in the future if that helps my message getting through.
Originally posted by Kirkland
Congratulations, you have a bisexual friend.
Anyone who can be attracted sexually to members of both genders is bisexual. Bisexuals are not gay. Nor are they straight.
Most people are probably bisexual to some degree, though I am certain that I am not.
Kirk
She is not bi. She wasn´t attracted to men before and she is not attracted to women now. And now you are gonna come and say "Well she were and is to some degre afterall." No she isn´t/wasn´t
Cheers
Scott
Originally posted by midwinter
I'll never forget the day I decided to be straight. It was a Tuesday. I think. I'm still waiting on my laminated straight card to come in the mail, though.
Originally posted by Anders
Do you know the difference between something being of choice and being social?
Originally posted by trumptman
Obviously all state laws don't have to agree. However there are laws that do have to agree.
So your money example was wrong. What laws have to agree and why? And how does gay marriage fit in? It's already been established that contracts like this don't follow you from state to state.
What's the problem then?
Originally posted by Anders
Anders, I'm not even sure I understand the question.
Originally posted by Anders
Let me turn this around: Why is it so hard for you to accept that other people can change sexuality?
Because I have direct experience with the issue, and I know it can't be done.
Originally posted by Kirkland
Because I have direct experience with the issue, and I know it can't be done.
Well I have experienced it can be done. And if a thing both can´t be done and can be done, then it can be done.
If I can hit a hole in one one time but can´t hit a hole in one a thousand times then its doable.
Originally posted by midwinter
Anders, I'm not even sure I understand the question.
People often confuse something that is social to be something they can choose. Thats not the case. Social facts are often as hard hitting as physical laws.
Another way of explaining the same is to divide the world in the objective subjective and intersubjective dimensions. Often the subjective (what I think) and intersubjective (what is given socially) is seen as the same and thats not the case,
Originally posted by Anders
Well I have experienced it can be done.
I don't believe that.
If gay people could change into straight people, we all would have long ago, because we all try to "fix ourselves" at some point. Logically, your friend must be bisexual, whether she acknowledges that fact before or now or not.
Originally posted by Anders
People often confuse something that is social to be something they can choose. Thats not the case. Social facts are often as hard hitting as physical laws.
Another way of explaining the same is to divide the world in the objective subjective and intersubjective dimensions. Often the subjective (what I think) and intersubjective (what is given socially) is seen as the same and thats not the case,
OK. I think I understand what you're getting at.
The problem is that social conventions are completely arbitrary and change over time.
Originally posted by Kirkland
I don't believe that.
Again someone other than you is suffering from false consciousness a la Marx when they feel what they feel.
Originally posted by Kirkland
If gay people could change into straight people, we all would have long ago, because we all try to "fix ourselves" at some point. Logically, your friend must be bisexual, whether she acknowledges that fact before or now or not.
Again you speak on behalf of every homosexual. The world is not like that. Different people have different experiences with homosexuality. Accept that. The arrogance in your argument is not different than that in the claim that homosexuals are just confused and if only they really knew who they were they would fall back into the true nature of their sex
Originally posted by midwinter
OK. I think I understand what you're getting at.
The problem is that social conventions are completely arbitrary and change over time.
Abitrary yes. Chancing over time only very slowly but just as important forms the bagground from which we create our view of the world.