Well, at least give the guy credit for not going in circles.
I´ll give him that.
Quote:
Originally posted by BuonRotto
We need more people who agree to disagree.
I disagree
We need more discussions like this one. DIscussions where we hit the arguments hard on.
Lets try stir up more debate. Why are people straight or gay? The "right" thing to say is that thats the way people are and nothing can change that or that the genes deside that. I disagree. I believe its a social thing with a lot of factors with the genes playing a minor role. When newly born christians ex-gay people say that they suddenly realised that they weren´t gay afterall and had been living a lie that is probably true for them. Nobody is hardwired into being anything.
I've a lot of gay friends, both male and female, and I can tell you truthfully that these people were gay since birth. Of course, given the society we live in, there was a bit more confusion than most adolescents usually are required to deal with, but they luckily found their way.
I have to wonder how many of my friends growing up never found their way. I grew up in a very strict and religious household, and even I was bi for a portion of my life. But I was eventually led by my *wiring* to prefer women over men.
However, I think I'm the exception to the rule. Most of my gay friends never thought about experimenting with the opposite sex, and most of my straight friends only thought about the opposite sex. I think 95% of people (gay/straight) just *know*, and the rest have to just figure it out.
Regardless, I do indeed think we are born...or 'hardwired' as you say...with our base sexuality. Straying from that is generally just experimentation in my book.
Lets try stir up more debate. Why are people straight or gay? The "right" thing to say is that thats the way people are and nothing can change that or that the genes deside that. I disagree. I believe its a social thing with a lot of factors with the genes playing a minor role. When newly born christians ex-gay people say that they suddenly realised that they weren´t gay afterall and had been living a lie that is probably true for them. Nobody is hardwired into being anything.
Social thing? Sure. I'm willing to bet that more people deny being gay or bisexual than those who mistakenly believe they are gay or bisexual. Yeah, it's a social thing.
I try to believe in free will, so while we might have inherent "hardwired" tendencies, being human is all about overcoming those limitations IMO. Being a slave to genetics and our precious bodily fluids qualifies humans as being alive, not being human. I think homosexuality is grossly oversimplified by both the genetic "switch" argument and the or the attention-seeker rationale.
Anyway, I suppose I should actually address the original point in the thread and say I too think this is a very good decision. Actually, I think the argument for the decision is excellent. It's why I was never a fan of the ERA and other derivatives of Jim Crow Laws, no matter how good the intentions.
Social thing? Sure. I'm willing to bet that more people deny being gay or bisexual than those who mistakenly believe they are gay or bisexual. Yeah, it's a social thing.
What is that? Oh yeah I seem to remember someting from the 70s called "false consiousness".
People are what they believe they are. Anything else is patronising.
I've a lot of gay friends, both male and female, and I can tell you truthfully that these people were gay since birth. Of course, given the society we live in, there was a bit more confusion than most adolescents usually are required to deal with, but they luckily found their way.
And I know some who went the other way who I for sure can say was gay when they were and now isn´t. There is no essence.
I could no more choose to be straight, no matter how much I might want it (not that I do), than I could will my hair to start growing blond. Now, I could cover my black hair with blond dye and effectively, to all appearances, outwardly appear and seem to be a blond, but I would still have black hair, no matter how much I pretended to be blond.
Threads on gay marriage always tend to highlight the "Creation vs Evolution" argument or the "Can people be born gay" question.
I see the issue differently.
I think gay marriage is a dumb idea. I also think it's the clearest sign yet that those who've embraced the "alternate lifestyle" choices have run out of ideas.
For the last twenty or thirty years, gay rights advocates kept harping on how different they were from the heterosexual community. After decades of being "out" and failing to create any real social instituions of their own, we're now told that the legal definition of Marriage must be "expanded" to encompass gay relationships.
This from the same people who said in the 80's that the government had no business meddling in their lives. The same people who said they only wanted to the right to live their lives, and would never "force people who disagreed with their lifestyle to approve.'
The concept of Marriage doesn't seem to fit. The idea of two homosexuals getting married, moving to the 'burbs, spending 40 years in marriage and then retiring together is as much alien to that community as fundamentalist Christianity.
It's a weird caricature of society's idea of what heterosexuality is supposed to be like. It looks to me more like a pathetic cry for help. If homosexuality is really genetic and natural as its advocates say, surely their time is better spent building their own social institutions, rather than trying to lamely mirror what life is like for the other side.
Perhaps AIDS has altered the thinking here, but if the gay community is pinning their hopes on gay marriage to lower infection rates, I think they will be sorely disappointed.
I think some of the posts made here are pretty dumb too, but I'm not looking to pass laws or amend constitutions to prevent dumb posts from getting through.
i am seriously looking for a solid, logic-based argument opposing gay marriage. judging by this thread, such an argument does not exist, and as a person driven by logic, i support gay marriage.
and, uh, yeah. i'm still not sure if ipodandimac is serious or just trolling
i am seriously looking for a solid, logic-based argument opposing gay marriage. judging by this thread, such an argument does not exist, and as a person driven by logic, i support gay marriage.
and, uh, yeah. i'm still not sure if ipodandimac is serious or just trolling
but here you have people wanting to participate in one of societies traditions... one that some see as proof of morality or being upstanding... and SOME want to not let that happen.
Should they not be aloud to sing in the church choir too?
There's plenty of amoral sonsabitches out there that are married.
Comments
Originally posted by ipodandimac
being gay is just a mental thing that people do to themselves because they want attention (oops... did i say that out loud?).
fire away.
Matthew Sheppard and others must have loved the attention.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Well, at least give the guy credit for not going in circles.
I´ll give him that.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
We need more people who agree to disagree.
I disagree
We need more discussions like this one. DIscussions where we hit the arguments hard on.
Lets try stir up more debate. Why are people straight or gay? The "right" thing to say is that thats the way people are and nothing can change that or that the genes deside that. I disagree. I believe its a social thing with a lot of factors with the genes playing a minor role. When newly born christians ex-gay people say that they suddenly realised that they weren´t gay afterall and had been living a lie that is probably true for them. Nobody is hardwired into being anything.
Originally posted by Anders
We need more discussions like this one. DIscussions where we hit the arguments hard on.
Oh yeah, you mean like this:
?you WASP idiot's posts. Grow a friggin cerebelum for chrizzakes. Oh, wait, you can't. That would imply evolution.
or this:
?being gay is just a mental thing that people do to themselves because they want attention?
Originally posted by Anders
Nobody is hardwired into being anything.
I respectfully disagree.
I've a lot of gay friends, both male and female, and I can tell you truthfully that these people were gay since birth. Of course, given the society we live in, there was a bit more confusion than most adolescents usually are required to deal with, but they luckily found their way.
I have to wonder how many of my friends growing up never found their way. I grew up in a very strict and religious household, and even I was bi for a portion of my life. But I was eventually led by my *wiring* to prefer women over men.
However, I think I'm the exception to the rule. Most of my gay friends never thought about experimenting with the opposite sex, and most of my straight friends only thought about the opposite sex. I think 95% of people (gay/straight) just *know*, and the rest have to just figure it out.
Regardless, I do indeed think we are born...or 'hardwired' as you say...with our base sexuality. Straying from that is generally just experimentation in my book.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Oh yeah, you mean like this:
Originally posted by Anders
Lets try stir up more debate. Why are people straight or gay? The "right" thing to say is that thats the way people are and nothing can change that or that the genes deside that. I disagree. I believe its a social thing with a lot of factors with the genes playing a minor role. When newly born christians ex-gay people say that they suddenly realised that they weren´t gay afterall and had been living a lie that is probably true for them. Nobody is hardwired into being anything.
Social thing? Sure. I'm willing to bet that more people deny being gay or bisexual than those who mistakenly believe they are gay or bisexual. Yeah, it's a social thing.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Oh yeah, you mean like this:
......
or this:
.......
Okay. With "arguments" I meant "sitting ducks" and "hitting hard on" i meant "saying the obvious". But thats just me being biased.
Anyway, I suppose I should actually address the original point in the thread and say I too think this is a very good decision. Actually, I think the argument for the decision is excellent.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Social thing? Sure. I'm willing to bet that more people deny being gay or bisexual than those who mistakenly believe they are gay or bisexual. Yeah, it's a social thing.
What is that? Oh yeah I seem to remember someting from the 70s called "false consiousness".
People are what they believe they are. Anything else is patronising.
Originally posted by 709
I respectfully disagree.
I've a lot of gay friends, both male and female, and I can tell you truthfully that these people were gay since birth. Of course, given the society we live in, there was a bit more confusion than most adolescents usually are required to deal with, but they luckily found their way.
And I know some who went the other way who I for sure can say was gay when they were and now isn´t. There is no essence.
Threads on gay marriage always tend to highlight the "Creation vs Evolution" argument or the "Can people be born gay" question.
I see the issue differently.
I think gay marriage is a dumb idea. I also think it's the clearest sign yet that those who've embraced the "alternate lifestyle" choices have run out of ideas.
For the last twenty or thirty years, gay rights advocates kept harping on how different they were from the heterosexual community. After decades of being "out" and failing to create any real social instituions of their own, we're now told that the legal definition of Marriage must be "expanded" to encompass gay relationships.
This from the same people who said in the 80's that the government had no business meddling in their lives. The same people who said they only wanted to the right to live their lives, and would never "force people who disagreed with their lifestyle to approve.'
The concept of Marriage doesn't seem to fit. The idea of two homosexuals getting married, moving to the 'burbs, spending 40 years in marriage and then retiring together is as much alien to that community as fundamentalist Christianity.
It's a weird caricature of society's idea of what heterosexuality is supposed to be like. It looks to me more like a pathetic cry for help. If homosexuality is really genetic and natural as its advocates say, surely their time is better spent building their own social institutions, rather than trying to lamely mirror what life is like for the other side.
Perhaps AIDS has altered the thinking here, but if the gay community is pinning their hopes on gay marriage to lower infection rates, I think they will be sorely disappointed.
Your position is that if gay people want to become part of "moral" or "upstanding" society...they can't because they're gay and chose to be outsiders.
So they should just stay in the closet just to get along with the rest of us?
How many times has Limbaugh been married?
Originally posted by Frank777
I think gay marriage is a dumb idea.
If you think it's dumb, don't marry a man, Frank.
I think some of the posts made here are pretty dumb too, but I'm not looking to pass laws or amend constitutions to prevent dumb posts from getting through.
and, uh, yeah. i'm still not sure if ipodandimac is serious or just trolling
Originally posted by progmac
i am seriously looking for a solid, logic-based argument opposing gay marriage. judging by this thread, such an argument does not exist, and as a person driven by logic, i support gay marriage.
and, uh, yeah. i'm still not sure if ipodandimac is serious or just trolling
I think he's pretty serious about trolling.
Originally posted by chu_bakka
So your reasoning is that even if gay people WANT to get married... they should not be allowed to... because that's not what gay people do?
Your position is that if gay people want to become part of "moral" or "upstanding" society...they can't because they're gay and chose to be outsiders.
So they should just stay in the closet just to get along with the rest of us?
So you're saying you can't be "moral" or "upstanding" without being married?
That's insane.
and the others just don't see the point because
either a. they can't have kids (forgetting adoption, insemination.. or surrogate parents)
or b. they're gay and why would gay people want what heteros want
did I miss something?
but here you have people wanting to participate in one of societies traditions... one that some see as proof of morality or being upstanding... and SOME want to not let that happen.
Should they not be aloud to sing in the church choir too?
There's plenty of amoral sonsabitches out there that are married.