The onus is on the listener to understand that a person in office does not speak for the entirety of the people being served by that person. That would be impossible. Last I heard, the way democracy works is the majority of the people pick the winner, not the minority.
According to Gore, thats not quite how it works in your country though. Though don't get me wrong, I couldn't give a toss who your prez is.
Well, it happens that we elect the President not through a direct popular vote but through voting for an Elector on a state by state basis. You need to win states, not a totally national popular vote. Sadly, the U.S. Supreme Court (arguably corrupt) voted in favor of Bush (along party lines) rather than pushing for a statewide (Florida) recount.
Nonetheless, the statement I made is true, barring Supreme Court involvement. "The majority of the people pick the winner, not the minority." is true, but at a state-by-state level, not one big national popular vote count.
Why is it that when Spain elects a person that reflects the voice of the majority it a "wonderful symbol of democracy" thing, yet if a majority of Americans are white and Christian and they vote for an elect a white Christian it's an "oppressive, racist/sexist/homophobic/religious tyranny"?
Please. The hyperbole only hurts your cause.
By the way your opinion of religion is nearly similar to mine. I'm done with religion. I wish it didn't exist. But it does and always will. So - all you can demand is tolerance of all views, including your own. But you can't then exclude others from speaking. It's all or nothing.
There are some religions I like, and what I like about them are their peacefulness, goodness, apoliticalness, kindness and lack of proselytization. I needn't name them and divert into a flame session over particulars. Bottom line is I don't like what religions make people do, I don't like them being abused and I don't like them being in politics particularly policy-making.
I still allow however individuals to maintain their beliefs and let them speak their minds freely, even in office.
The worst I'd ever demand is a policy of making clear where the personal statement beings and where the policy-level, official language begins.
I like religion when it is a peaceful reflection of culture.
Islam is a poor example for you to use since it is often being abused as a political ideology. It would be just as objectionable to have an anarchist or neo-nazi espousing hateful views as to have a radical Islamist in public office calling for violence or hate.
I have no problem with Islam were it is not being used in hurtful ways. Yes, radical fundamentalism is bad. there are radical Christian fundamentalists, radical Islamic fundamentalists, radical atheists, radical anarchists...
Of course not all views should be allowed once they break the law and become violent.
I hate hypocrisy. Are Christians hypocritical? Are Americans hypocritical? Of course some are. All of humanity has hypocrisy in it.
I can't stand proselytizing, evangelical preaching, what I would call idolatry of the various churches (I'm fine with idols in other religions, but when you have them despite them being against your God's commandments I find it repugnantly hypocritical).
My solution is to avoid them if I can and if I can't avoid it, take delight in my wickedness.
Religion is only as screwed up as humanity is. And I suspect religion isn't the cause but more the product. If we sent clones to Mars with zero historical data for them to learn from, they'd develop religion eventually, and proceed to kill each other over various ridiculous arbitrary things pertaining to the religions they invented. I guarantee it.
Seeing as how your country has an officially established religion, I'd move. Where to is the question.
Live and let live (and speak and love and prosper and vote)
The Michigan Brewing Company (MBC) brought back the Gold from the 2003 Great American Beer Festival, the nation?s largest beer competition recognizing the most outstanding beers produced in the United States today.
The Professional Judge Panel awarded the Gold Medal in the Belgian-Style White (or wit) category to MBC?s Celis White calling it ?a world-class beer that accurately exemplifies the specified style, displaying the proper balance of taste, aroma and appearance.?
The Great American Beer Festival is the American brewing industry's top public tasting and competition. Winners in 58 beer-style categories were announced September 27 at the 22nd Annual Great American Beer Festival Awards Ceremony held at the Colorado Convention Center in Denver, Colorado. The awards are among the most coveted in the industry.
Celis White, a beer brewed with coriander and orange peel for a light and refreshing taste, had taken many medals in past years, under the direction of Pierre Celis, the founder of the Celis brand, setting the standard of measurement for Belgian-Style Wit beers in the United States.
After dropping out of the brewing scene for several years, Celis White has been revived by Michigan Brewing Company with the blessing of its founder and his daughter, Christine Celis. Assisting the transition, Mr. Celis brought over his brew engineer, Jean Luc Suys, from Belgium to guide MBC in the re-birth of this world recognized beer.
If you are talking about when people sign off at the end of speeches, I'm for the speaker saying whatever personal thing they want to . If it happens to be a Christian that wants to say God bless America etc. so what, because the implicit freedom is that a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, whatever, can say whatever they want at the end of their speeches.
I agree that the premise of what you say is understandable for say... someone giving a speech at a High School graduation. But the president is SUPPOSED to represent the entire country. Not just the parts he likes. And during a time when it is clear that American actions are being interpreted as one religion attacking another it may just be better to choose your words more carefully.
Yes he has the right to freedom of religion and freedom of speech. But he also has the RESPONSIBILTY that goes along with those rights PLUS the responsibilities of his office. Common sense must temper law.
<drools> Damn you... Now I have to go out and find a bottle or six... :P THAT'S how global policies should be decided, over a nice bottle/pint/funnel of beer.
"Beer, the cause of and solutions to, all life's problems"
Comments
Originally posted by Fellowship
Originally posted by MarcUK
WHATEVER! No, I wouldn't. Are you implying that I am a likely terrorist?
Sad.
reeeaaaaalllly
Did you miss that MarkUK?
and yes I would take a beer anytime
fellows
I guess I did, apologies.
One thing Fellows, i'm like marcUK with a 'c', you've got it wrong since day 1! Thats because my real name is Marcus. No worries, Dale. See you round!
According to Gore, thats not quite how it works in your country though. Though don't get me wrong, I couldn't give a toss who your prez is.
Well, it happens that we elect the President not through a direct popular vote but through voting for an Elector on a state by state basis. You need to win states, not a totally national popular vote. Sadly, the U.S. Supreme Court (arguably corrupt) voted in favor of Bush (along party lines) rather than pushing for a statewide (Florida) recount.
Nonetheless, the statement I made is true, barring Supreme Court involvement. "The majority of the people pick the winner, not the minority." is true, but at a state-by-state level, not one big national popular vote count.
Why is it that when Spain elects a person that reflects the voice of the majority it a "wonderful symbol of democracy" thing, yet if a majority of Americans are white and Christian and they vote for an elect a white Christian it's an "oppressive, racist/sexist/homophobic/religious tyranny"?
Please. The hyperbole only hurts your cause.
By the way your opinion of religion is nearly similar to mine. I'm done with religion. I wish it didn't exist. But it does and always will. So - all you can demand is tolerance of all views, including your own. But you can't then exclude others from speaking. It's all or nothing.
There are some religions I like, and what I like about them are their peacefulness, goodness, apoliticalness, kindness and lack of proselytization. I needn't name them and divert into a flame session over particulars. Bottom line is I don't like what religions make people do, I don't like them being abused and I don't like them being in politics particularly policy-making.
I still allow however individuals to maintain their beliefs and let them speak their minds freely, even in office.
The worst I'd ever demand is a policy of making clear where the personal statement beings and where the policy-level, official language begins.
I like religion when it is a peaceful reflection of culture.
Islam is a poor example for you to use since it is often being abused as a political ideology. It would be just as objectionable to have an anarchist or neo-nazi espousing hateful views as to have a radical Islamist in public office calling for violence or hate.
I have no problem with Islam were it is not being used in hurtful ways. Yes, radical fundamentalism is bad. there are radical Christian fundamentalists, radical Islamic fundamentalists, radical atheists, radical anarchists...
Of course not all views should be allowed once they break the law and become violent.
I hate hypocrisy. Are Christians hypocritical? Are Americans hypocritical? Of course some are. All of humanity has hypocrisy in it.
I can't stand proselytizing, evangelical preaching, what I would call idolatry of the various churches (I'm fine with idols in other religions, but when you have them despite them being against your God's commandments I find it repugnantly hypocritical).
My solution is to avoid them if I can and if I can't avoid it, take delight in my wickedness.
Religion is only as screwed up as humanity is. And I suspect religion isn't the cause but more the product. If we sent clones to Mars with zero historical data for them to learn from, they'd develop religion eventually, and proceed to kill each other over various ridiculous arbitrary things pertaining to the religions they invented. I guarantee it.
Seeing as how your country has an officially established religion, I'd move. Where to is the question.
Live and let live (and speak and love and prosper and vote)
Originally posted by MarcUK
hey, at the end of the day, Fellows, John, and marc, all made friends again, and the thread wasn't locked. Is this a first in AO?
Hey, best wishes.
Have a pint on me. You too Fellows.
Originally posted by MarcUK
fancy a beer Fellowship
As a matter of fact
Cheers
fellows
Originally posted by johnq
No wonder Fellows is so happy...nice weather, beer....
just an iBook but not just any beer,
Celis White
The Michigan Brewing Company (MBC) brought back the Gold from the 2003 Great American Beer Festival, the nation?s largest beer competition recognizing the most outstanding beers produced in the United States today.
The Professional Judge Panel awarded the Gold Medal in the Belgian-Style White (or wit) category to MBC?s Celis White calling it ?a world-class beer that accurately exemplifies the specified style, displaying the proper balance of taste, aroma and appearance.?
The Great American Beer Festival is the American brewing industry's top public tasting and competition. Winners in 58 beer-style categories were announced September 27 at the 22nd Annual Great American Beer Festival Awards Ceremony held at the Colorado Convention Center in Denver, Colorado. The awards are among the most coveted in the industry.
Celis White, a beer brewed with coriander and orange peel for a light and refreshing taste, had taken many medals in past years, under the direction of Pierre Celis, the founder of the Celis brand, setting the standard of measurement for Belgian-Style Wit beers in the United States.
After dropping out of the brewing scene for several years, Celis White has been revived by Michigan Brewing Company with the blessing of its founder and his daughter, Christine Celis. Assisting the transition, Mr. Celis brought over his brew engineer, Jean Luc Suys, from Belgium to guide MBC in the re-birth of this world recognized beer.
Originally posted by johnq
If you are talking about when people sign off at the end of speeches, I'm for the speaker saying whatever personal thing they want to . If it happens to be a Christian that wants to say God bless America etc. so what, because the implicit freedom is that a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, whatever, can say whatever they want at the end of their speeches.
I agree that the premise of what you say is understandable for say... someone giving a speech at a High School graduation. But the president is SUPPOSED to represent the entire country. Not just the parts he likes. And during a time when it is clear that American actions are being interpreted as one religion attacking another it may just be better to choose your words more carefully.
Yes he has the right to freedom of religion and freedom of speech. But he also has the RESPONSIBILTY that goes along with those rights PLUS the responsibilities of his office. Common sense must temper law.
Originally posted by Fellowship
As a matter of fact
Cheers
fellows
<drools> Damn you... Now I have to go out and find a bottle or six... :P THAT'S how global policies should be decided, over a nice bottle/pint/funnel of beer.
"Beer, the cause of and solutions to, all life's problems"
-Homer Simpson
what?... you already know?