Dennis Miller redux
A while back we had a thread on Dennis Miller and his (shifting) politics.
Two nights ago he had as a guest Eric Alterman (writer for the Nation and notorious liberal). Watch it here (7 megs so dial up beware).
I have to say I was stunned. It's no secret that Miller's politics have shifted to the right; most of his guests are conservative pundits and he seems to have little patience for "liberal" thinking when it does make its way onto his show (this despite his claim at the outset that he would represent a "no bullshit, no ideology" straight thinkin' straight talkin' kind of deal).
But the actual contempt and complete lack of engagement was startling. His attitude seemed to be that Alterman's ideas where so contemptible that they rendered him a sort of loathsome bug that Miller could only recoil from in disgust.
I just wonder what happens to a person's mind (he seems to be a bright enough guy) when they stop even trying to engage or rebut thinking they disagree with and go straight to "fck you". Doing it on a talk show just seemed slightly sureal.
By the way, Alterman's response on his blog is here
Two nights ago he had as a guest Eric Alterman (writer for the Nation and notorious liberal). Watch it here (7 megs so dial up beware).
I have to say I was stunned. It's no secret that Miller's politics have shifted to the right; most of his guests are conservative pundits and he seems to have little patience for "liberal" thinking when it does make its way onto his show (this despite his claim at the outset that he would represent a "no bullshit, no ideology" straight thinkin' straight talkin' kind of deal).
But the actual contempt and complete lack of engagement was startling. His attitude seemed to be that Alterman's ideas where so contemptible that they rendered him a sort of loathsome bug that Miller could only recoil from in disgust.
I just wonder what happens to a person's mind (he seems to be a bright enough guy) when they stop even trying to engage or rebut thinking they disagree with and go straight to "fck you". Doing it on a talk show just seemed slightly sureal.
By the way, Alterman's response on his blog is here
Comments
I was trying to figure out what he was hoping to prove.
needless to say, he and jon stewart have been friendly for a long time. i wonder how they react to each other nowadays.
So you get a lot of stuff out of him like "Yeah, but come on, I mean nobody really thinks that do they? I mean you just have to look around to see what utter horseshtit that is."
I think maybe it's easy to get addicted to this style of bluntness, that it's a little thrilling to just reject arguments out of hand as being nonsense and posture as a hard nosed decisive person with no time for fools. And so much easier than actual critical thought.
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
Dennis is smart, witty, but is an obvious asshole.
he is a COMEDIAN, not sean hannity, not larry king, not barbra walters - he was out of his element, watch his old hbo shows where his interviws were more like chats, less like interviews, he is like the daily show for SMART people, lib or conservative
Originally posted by a_greer
he is a COMEDIAN, not sean hannity, not larry king, not barbra walters - he was out of his element, watch his old hbo shows where his interviws were more like chats, less like interviews, he is like the daily show for SMART people, lib or conservative
The Daily Show is the Daily Show for smart people.
The Dennis Miller show has become something of a train wreck.
Originally posted by a_greer
he is like the daily show for SMART people
That was funnier than anything Dennis Miller could hope to come up with.
Originally posted by giant
That was funnier than anything Dennis Miller could hope to come up with.
That was pretty pathetic. D M used to be entertaining and funny. He's very eloquent and witty, but I don't think he's as bright as people think. Unless of course it was his idea to make a living off of the right wing couch potatoes when his career had kinda hit a blip.
I've watched the video twice and my conclusion is that he felt
overmatched by this guy so he resorted to being a ****head.
Originally posted by Moogs
Dennis is a much better comedian than media pundit. His HBO show was so much better than this crap on MSNBC. And believe me, if he hadn't shifted, he wouldn't get the air time on a channel like MSNBC.
Dude, I've been agreeing with your posts now for a while. What's up with that?
it picks up with the interview already in-progress, so I can't say that I've seen the interview in its full context....unfair to someone new to the issue.
Eric Alterman is saying "you can't take the man at his word" in regard to Pres. Bush. That's a broad-sweeping partisan accusation that is never true of anyone....so that's lazy thinking on his part. Granted, I'm a better at writing than I am an extemporaneous speaking....likely the case for Alterman. Still, a lazy assertion that pushes his base agenda.
....still watching....
So now Dennis calls him out on the question "do you think Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened?". Alterman dithers, mutters a bit, Miller calls Dean into the conversation and ultimately Alterman says that "no", he doesn't believe that Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened. The way that he hesitates before answering could be read many ways by many different people. I see it as a sort of halting hesitancy to plainly say "NO. I do not think that Bush was involved", thereby leaving the door of doubt open.
This is where I see Dennis Miller's hostility emerge. He's reacting to this author's silent insinuation (or reticent declination, make your own choice here).
.....watching again....
Dennis lets him wiggle a bit (yes, it's hostile).
As many liberals continue to do, he quickly rushes through his professed "happiness" that the Iraqi people have been freed from the rule of a dictator who had thousands of his own citizens brutally murdered.....he rushes through it so that he can get back to the things that matter most to him (and to many of our friends here):
the loss of 500 some soldiers
the expense of the war
the "fact" that the world "hates our guts"
the lack of post-war planning (the ubiquitous "exit plan")
he cites an ABC poll that says that the Iraqis are questioning the war's effect now
...he retouches on his response when people ask him "Aren't you glad that Saddam Hussein's no longer in power?"...to which he refers back to the cost/benefit of removing Saddam from power...
So then Dennis playfully throws the "Aren't you glad that Saddam Hussein's no longer in power?" question back at him, Nixon-like in his head-waggling.
They toss it back and forth a little, with Alterman pushing the "we built the monster" theorum to which Miller rebuts with the "wasn't Iran was a bigger threat" posit....in essence reminding Alterman that hindsight is 20/20.
Neither one of the guys is going to budge from his position, but Alterman pushes ahead, aggressively trying to take advantage of his screen time...saying "just let me finish what I'm saying"....I can tell that he's that guy that talks your ear off at the bar and never, ever actually listens to what you're saying...he's the guy that you and your friends learn to tune out because he's just going to talk and talk and talk.
Dennis realizes as much and he slips his head down onto his hand, Benny-like, and mutters "just finish this %*!$ segment". He just gives up because Alterman isn't going to listen to what he's saying...he's interrupted Miller repeatedly through the segment and has evinced no apparent desire to actually DISCUSS the topic.
He just wants to talk.
The audience's laughter and the awkward silence lead Alterman to ask "This is your mode of argument? This is the best you can do?" (actually interrupting and overriding Dennis Miller for the umpteenth time in the interview....Miller says "I've been wanting to talk SO much".
Eric again pushes "This is the best you can do?". Dennis has obviously decided "screw this"...and he just says "Yeah...y'um"....and lets Alterman run to the end of his arguments.
So, I didn't see Dennis Miller as the only asshole on stage.
Originally posted by drewprops
Okay, I'm watching the clip now....
it picks up with the interview already in-progress, so I can't say that I've seen the interview in its full context....unfair to someone new to the issue.
Eric Alterman is saying "you can't take the man at his word" in regard to Pres. Bush. That's a broad-sweeping partisan accusation that is never true of anyone....so that's lazy thinking on his part. Granted, I'm a better at writing than I am an extemporaneous speaking....likely the case for Alterman. Still, a lazy assertion that pushes his base agenda.
....still watching....
So now Dennis calls him out on the question "do you think Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened?". Alterman dithers, mutters a bit, Miller calls Dean into the conversation and ultimately Alterman says that "no", he doesn't believe that Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened. The way that he hesitates before answering could be read many ways by many different people. I see it as a sort of halting hesitancy to plainly say "NO. I do not think that Bush was involved", thereby leaving the door of doubt open.
This is where I see Dennis Miller's hostility emerge. He's reacting to this author's silent insinuation (or reticent declination, make your own choice here).
.....watching again....
Dennis lets him wiggle a bit (yes, it's hostile).
As many liberals continue to do, he quickly rushes through his professed "happiness" that the Iraqi people have been freed from the rule of a dictator who had thousands of his own citizens brutally murdered.....he rushes through it so that he can get back to the things that matter most to him (and to many of our friends here):
the loss of 500 some soldiers
the expense of the war
the "fact" that the world "hates our guts"
the lack of post-war planning (the ubiquitous "exit plan")
he cites an ABC poll that says that the Iraqis are questioning the war's effect now
...he retouches on his response when people ask him "Aren't you glad that Saddam Hussein's no longer in power?"...to which he refers back to the cost/benefit of removing Saddam from power...
So then Dennis playfully throws the "Aren't you glad that Saddam Hussein's no longer in power?" question back at him, Nixon-like in his head-waggling.
They toss it back and forth a little, with Alterman pushing the "we built the monster" theorum to which Miller rebuts with the "wasn't Iran was a bigger threat" posit....in essence reminding Alterman that hindsight is 20/20.
Neither one of the guys is going to budge from his position, but Alterman pushes ahead, aggressively trying to take advantage of his screen time...saying "just let me finish what I'm saying"....I can tell that he's that guy that talks your ear off at the bar and never, ever actually listens to what you're saying...he's the guy that you and your friends learn to tune out because he's just going to talk and talk and talk.
Dennis realizes as much and he slips his head down onto his hand, Benny-like, and mutters "just finish this %*!$ segment". He just gives up because Alterman isn't going to listen to what he's saying...he's interrupted Miller repeatedly through the segment and has evinced no apparent desire to actually DISCUSS the topic.
He just wants to talk.
The audience's laughter and the awkward silence lead Alterman to ask "This is your mode of argument? This is the best you can do?" (actually interrupting and overriding Dennis Miller for the umpteenth time in the interview....Miller says "I've been wanting to talk SO much".
Eric again pushes "This is the best you can do?". Dennis has obviously decided "screw this"...and he just says "Yeah...y'um"....and lets Alterman run to the end of his arguments.
So, I didn't see Dennis Miller as the only asshole on stage.
Please, if anyone wants to do a better transcript than that, be my guest. That's not remotely how most of us perceived it-- including the man in question himself. Yes, Dennis Miller already apologized.
Originally posted by drewprops
Okay, I'm watching the clip now....
it picks up with the interview already in-progress, so I can't say that I've seen the interview in its full context....unfair to someone new to the issue.
Eric Alterman is saying "you can't take the man at his word" in regard to Pres. Bush. That's a broad-sweeping partisan accusation that is never true of anyone....so that's lazy thinking on his part. Granted, I'm a better at writing than I am an extemporaneous speaking....likely the case for Alterman. Still, a lazy assertion that pushes his base agenda.
....still watching....
So now Dennis calls him out on the question "do you think Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened?". Alterman dithers, mutters a bit, Miller calls Dean into the conversation and ultimately Alterman says that "no", he doesn't believe that Bush knew about 9/11 before it happened. The way that he hesitates before answering could be read many ways by many different people. I see it as a sort of halting hesitancy to plainly say "NO. I do not think that Bush was involved", thereby leaving the door of doubt open.
This is where I see Dennis Miller's hostility emerge. He's reacting to this author's silent insinuation (or reticent declination, make your own choice here).
.....watching again....
Dennis lets him wiggle a bit (yes, it's hostile).
As many liberals continue to do, he quickly rushes through his professed "happiness" that the Iraqi people have been freed from the rule of a dictator who had thousands of his own citizens brutally murdered.....he rushes through it so that he can get back to the things that matter most to him (and to many of our friends here):
the loss of 500 some soldiers
the expense of the war
the "fact" that the world "hates our guts"
the lack of post-war planning (the ubiquitous "exit plan")
he cites an ABC poll that says that the Iraqis are questioning the war's effect now
...he retouches on his response when people ask him "Aren't you glad that Saddam Hussein's no longer in power?"...to which he refers back to the cost/benefit of removing Saddam from power...
So then Dennis playfully throws the "Aren't you glad that Saddam Hussein's no longer in power?" question back at him, Nixon-like in his head-waggling.
They toss it back and forth a little, with Alterman pushing the "we built the monster" theorum to which Miller rebuts with the "wasn't Iran was a bigger threat" posit....in essence reminding Alterman that hindsight is 20/20.
Neither one of the guys is going to budge from his position, but Alterman pushes ahead, aggressively trying to take advantage of his screen time...saying "just let me finish what I'm saying"....I can tell that he's that guy that talks your ear off at the bar and never, ever actually listens to what you're saying...he's the guy that you and your friends learn to tune out because he's just going to talk and talk and talk.
Dennis realizes as much and he slips his head down onto his hand, Benny-like, and mutters "just finish this %*!$ segment". He just gives up because Alterman isn't going to listen to what he's saying...he's interrupted Miller repeatedly through the segment and has evinced no apparent desire to actually DISCUSS the topic.
He just wants to talk.
The audience's laughter and the awkward silence lead Alterman to ask "This is your mode of argument? This is the best you can do?" (actually interrupting and overriding Dennis Miller for the umpteenth time in the interview....Miller says "I've been wanting to talk SO much".
Eric again pushes "This is the best you can do?". Dennis has obviously decided "screw this"...and he just says "Yeah...y'um"....and lets Alterman run to the end of his arguments.
So, I didn't see Dennis Miller as the only asshole on stage.
That's a completely bizarre reading of the dynamic. Fortunately, the link to the vid is right there, so anyone can see for themselves.
Alterman is asserting that Bush is either lying , deluded, or indifferent to the truth when it comes to Iraq. It's not a unique idea, it's been broadly discussed. Miller doesn't attempt to engage this idea, he just goes straight to "Do you think Bush knew about 9/11 ahead of time" as an obvious effort to get Alterman to say something "off the wall" he can belittle. He even suggests that Alterman repeat back to him what Dean said, I guess just so he can hear the words leave Alterman's lips. Alterman immediately says no, adds that he doesn't speak for Howard Dean. Repeats that he doesn't believe Bush knew ahead of time. He doesn't "dither", "mutter", or pause in a manner that suggests anything.
This is where it gets weird. Miller is leaning back with his head in his hand, and starts acting like Alterman is surly (which he clearly is not). He mocks him, acting out slumping in his seat and going "blah, blah, blah" in a monotone. He says that Alterman is so angry, he doesn't know what to say. It makes no sense, since we can see Alterman sitting up and hear him enunciating with no apparent animosity.
After a little exchange about "aren't you glad Saddam is gone" again oddly puncuated by Miller repeating back Alterman's characterization of the standard conservative line ("aren't youo glad etc.") and then saying "you asked it, not me". Miller mutters "let's just finish the fckin segment."
Which of course leaves Alterman a little bit startled, Miller finishes by appearing to "give up", as in just finish your damn talking so I can get you out of here.
Alterman does not "repeatedly" interupt Miller. He appears to assume that since he has been invited on a show they wanted him to talk about his ideas.
(Go figure...) It's Miller that does most of the interupting, mostly with sophmoric inanities, so it's not too suprising that they don't have much of a discussion.
How anybody could look at that and conclude that Alterman was rightly "called out" or that Miller's hostility was justified or that Alterman was doing anything but explaining his world view is really really beyond me.
Miller's been around long enough to carry on a decent inverview with people with differing opinions.
Alterman IS that guy that we all know whose mouth never stops moving.
Bizarre's in the eye of the beholder. Like I said, I saw two assholes on stage.
Originally posted by drewprops
Hey, I never said that Alterman's assertions were wrong or unfounded. I just watched what little of the inverview was online to find where it looked like the interview derailed.
Miller's been around long enough to carry on a decent inverview with people with differing opinions.
Alterman IS that guy that we all know whose mouth never stops moving.
Bizarre's in the eye of the beholder. Like I said, I saw two assholes on stage.
Sure, Alterman talks, but that really isn't being an "asshole".
Against Miller's freakish performance I thought he kept his cool rather admirably.
I mean, imagine if you were having a discussion with someone, calmly making your case, and they started making fun of what they imagined to be your body language and tone, suggesting that it was pointless to talk to you because you were so surly and angry. I, for one, would have stopped right there and said "What the hell are you talking about? Are you joking? Are you interested in having a discussion or are we going to reenact junior high?"
Bottomline: Dennis Miller DID go wanky, no question. It was one of the worst interviews I've seen lately. It wasn't as much fun as Dabney Coleman and Johnny Carson, or Charles Grodin with Letterman. I just pointed out some things that I noted about Alterman during the interview that might've contributed to Miller's behavior. Show me the entire interview!
And lighten up, cookies.