shooting them---that's pretty problematic. I think the problem with that (although it throws you back to the "kill 'em all" option) is this underlying theme that America is a Great Evil force that exports porn, homosexuality, feminism, colonialism, etc. I don't think that if we abandoned the mideast that the harrasment would stop. Maybe the physical colonialism would end, but not the cultural.
We've (i.e. the Western world) been in the middle east in some form or other since the 12th century, and every time it's been as a colonizer. WWI is where the modern iteration of our occupation has its roots. Go watch Lawrence of Arabia or something to see what I'm talking about.
Quote:
The other problem is with Islam itself, undeluted, it does terrible things to economies---it is a mindset stuck at 650A.D. It hasn't had a reformation---and isn't really equiped for one. I think that there will be a showdown on some level in the future between that ideology and the ideology of the West, which is still fairly Christian in it's underpinnings.
What does "undiluted" mean? You're stuck in what is an essentially manichean view of the world (i.e. us vs them, good vs evil, right vs wrong, Xianity vs Islam). We're trying to explain the political situation to you, and all of us are making the point that it is reductive to say that they hate us because they're "evil-doers who hate freedom." This is a political war, not a religious one.
We saw step one of the Bush response (which I applauded) when he pulled our troops out of SA. THAT was what got OBL steamed in the first place, iirc.
Go watch Lawrence of Arabia or something to see what I'm talking about.
seen it---I'm aware of how things got to the way they are in the mideast.
Quote:
it is reductive to say that they hate us because they're "evil-doers who hate freedom." This is a political war, not a religious one.
the "evil-doers who hate freedom" is really only for a simple minded audiance.
You can't separate the essentail underpinnings of Islam for any state that it gives birth to. Islam is not going to last as an idealogy as we move into the future. It will have to be diluted into some sort of neo-orthodox take or it will ultimately confilict with the West.
Fundamaentalist Christianity has a history "of hating freedom" . . . is that the 'essential under-pinning' of our culture?
Look back at history . . . look to Spain before the Inquisition . . .Islam before teh Mongols sacked Baghdad . . .they were very advanced 'socio-culturally' . . much more so than Europe at the time
seen it---I'm aware of how things got to the way they are in the mideast.
Good.
Quote:
the "evil-doers who hate freedom" is really only for a simple minded audiance.
Indeed. So is the notion that this is a battle of good versus evil.
Quote:
You can't separate the essentail underpinnings of Islam for any state that it gives birth to.
Turkey.
Quote:
Islam is not going to last as an idealogy as we move into the future. It will have to be diluted into some sort of neo-orthodox take or it will ultimately confilict with the West.
All religions must be diluted to some degree if they are to wield any political power outside of an hermetically sealed and very small locality. Christianity did this by absorbing the traditions of older, pagan religions (solstice and equinox celebrations, iconography, etc).
As for Islam coming into conflict with the West...I would suggest that it's the other way around. It is the West that has, for centuries now, gone after Islam--largely for political reasons having to do with the region, its location, and its natural resources.
The submission aspects of Islam are problematic when you apply it to a govenrment.
Exactly, I would extend this to any religion.
Separation of Church and State for the providence of a secular government which ensures pluralism among all diverse peoples is the ideal form of government for those who value individual liberty and freedom I would argue.
I meant it more as Islam, being unitarian, really pushes itself toward statism---and then mystisism, since "oneness is primary"---being abosrbed into "the One" is a natural goal.
I'm not certain there is a happy ending in those sorts of tendencies.
Has there been a change in the candy-strip alert system?
I appologise, I just figured that all the news sources would cover the threats from hamas toward the US.
I saw a blurb on fox today with a hamas leader and then the WH press secy. since it was fox I can't use it as a link for fear of being labeled stupid and right wing, so when the rest of the press catches up I guess you will get the news.
I goofled and found no mention of the threat itself. I guess the maket reacting to the news means nothing also. But they must watch fox there because like I said I can't find a mention of the actual threat by hamas.
Is Viacom based out of Kt.? so much inbreeding so little time, the S&S bush-bash books get 60 Min. fluff with NO disclosure of the relationship, Leslie stall is no longer a news person, she is a book pusher.
As for Richard Clarke: this guy is a liar. The Vice President said in a national radio interview today that he (the author) was out of the loop, he was pushed aside by Condi Rice and DEMOTED to some piss-on computer virus czar thing, thus he had a score to settle. and Kerry being out of the spotlight on vacation all week. happy coincident, i doubt it, the pieces fit so well.
Is Viacom based out of Kt.? so much inbreeding so little time, the S&S bush-bash books get 60 Min. fluff with NO disclosure of the relationship, Leslie stall is no longer a news person, she is a book pusher.
As for Richard Clarke: this guy is a liar. The Vice President said in a national radio interview today that he (the author) was out of the loop, he was pushed aside by Condi Rice and DEMOTED to some piss-on computer virus czar thing, thus he had a score to settle. and Kerry being out of the spotlight on vacation all week. happy coincident, i doubt it, the pieces fit so well.
Is Viacom based out of Kt.? so much inbreeding so little time, the S&S bush-bash books get 60 Min. fluff with NO disclosure of the relationship, Leslie stall is no longer a news person, she is a book pusher.
As for Richard Clarke: this guy is a liar. The Vice President said in a national radio interview today that he (the author) was out of the loop, he was pushed aside by Condi Rice and DEMOTED to some piss-on computer virus czar thing, thus he had a score to settle. and Kerry being out of the spotlight on vacation all week. happy coincident, i doubt it, the pieces fit so well.
On RUSH LIMBAUGH'S SHOW, actually.
You know this whole line that clarke was "demoted" is misguided. the real issue here is that bush didn't think terrorism was important enough to warrant a cabinet-level position. the whole position was demoted, not just clarke. And he performed the same duties- he was still the counter-terrorism czar- cyberterrorism was just one of his pet issues.
If people could just get the facts straight for ONCE!
You know this whole line that clarke was "demoted" is misguided. the real issue here is that bush didn't think terrorism was important enough to warrant a cabinet-level position. the whole position was demoted, not just clarke. And he performed the same duties- he was still the counter-terrorism czar- cyberterrorism was just one of his pet issues.
If people could just get the facts straight for ONCE!
this is what I was talking about:
Quote:
This Clarke guy was demoted by Condoleezza Rice to the cyberspace unit. Nobody took it seriously, and he knows it. He was out, and this explains it.
Comments
Originally posted by dmz
shooting them---that's pretty problematic. I think the problem with that (although it throws you back to the "kill 'em all" option) is this underlying theme that America is a Great Evil force that exports porn, homosexuality, feminism, colonialism, etc. I don't think that if we abandoned the mideast that the harrasment would stop. Maybe the physical colonialism would end, but not the cultural.
We've (i.e. the Western world) been in the middle east in some form or other since the 12th century, and every time it's been as a colonizer. WWI is where the modern iteration of our occupation has its roots. Go watch Lawrence of Arabia or something to see what I'm talking about.
The other problem is with Islam itself, undeluted, it does terrible things to economies---it is a mindset stuck at 650A.D. It hasn't had a reformation---and isn't really equiped for one. I think that there will be a showdown on some level in the future between that ideology and the ideology of the West, which is still fairly Christian in it's underpinnings.
What does "undiluted" mean? You're stuck in what is an essentially manichean view of the world (i.e. us vs them, good vs evil, right vs wrong, Xianity vs Islam). We're trying to explain the political situation to you, and all of us are making the point that it is reductive to say that they hate us because they're "evil-doers who hate freedom." This is a political war, not a religious one.
We saw step one of the Bush response (which I applauded) when he pulled our troops out of SA. THAT was what got OBL steamed in the first place, iirc.
Originally posted by midwinter
Go watch Lawrence of Arabia or something to see what I'm talking about.
seen it---I'm aware of how things got to the way they are in the mideast.
Quote:
it is reductive to say that they hate us because they're "evil-doers who hate freedom." This is a political war, not a religious one.
the "evil-doers who hate freedom" is really only for a simple minded audiance.
You can't separate the essentail underpinnings of Islam for any state that it gives birth to. Islam is not going to last as an idealogy as we move into the future. It will have to be diluted into some sort of neo-orthodox take or it will ultimately confilict with the West.
Look back at history . . . look to Spain before the Inquisition . . .Islam before teh Mongols sacked Baghdad . . .they were very advanced 'socio-culturally' . . much more so than Europe at the time
Until the Reformation, that is. Things have moved in different directions since then.
The submission aspects of Islam are problematic when you apply it to a govenrment.
Originally posted by dmz
seen it---I'm aware of how things got to the way they are in the mideast.
Good.
the "evil-doers who hate freedom" is really only for a simple minded audiance.
Indeed. So is the notion that this is a battle of good versus evil.
You can't separate the essentail underpinnings of Islam for any state that it gives birth to.
Turkey.
Islam is not going to last as an idealogy as we move into the future. It will have to be diluted into some sort of neo-orthodox take or it will ultimately confilict with the West.
All religions must be diluted to some degree if they are to wield any political power outside of an hermetically sealed and very small locality. Christianity did this by absorbing the traditions of older, pagan religions (solstice and equinox celebrations, iconography, etc).
As for Islam coming into conflict with the West...I would suggest that it's the other way around. It is the West that has, for centuries now, gone after Islam--largely for political reasons having to do with the region, its location, and its natural resources.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2097369/
Originally posted by Scott
So Slate is campaigning for Kerry now huh?
I guess Slate is now "against us" too eh?
Originally posted by dmz
The submission aspects of Islam are problematic when you apply it to a govenrment.
Exactly, I would extend this to any religion.
Separation of Church and State for the providence of a secular government which ensures pluralism among all diverse peoples is the ideal form of government for those who value individual liberty and freedom I would argue.
Fellows
I'm not certain there is a happy ending in those sorts of tendencies.
It is not smart going through life not knowing who your enemies are.
Hamas has now blamed the US for the bombing and killing of the Hamas leader, despite all of the effort the US has put forth on their behalf.
They have now publicly announced that they will now target US and it's interests as if it was Israel.
I suppose that is Bush's fault also. Welcome to post 9/11. I predict car bombs will start becoming more and more common here in the US.
I guess we should take a time out to understand their feelings about us. I hope you don't live near a big city.
Yay for us.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well, because anyone who posts here has to define every single word that he/she types. Let me say it a little differently:
It is not smart going through life not knowing who your enemies are.
Hamas has now blamed the US for the bombing and killing of the Hamas leader, despite all of the effort the US has put forth on their behalf.
They have now publicly announced that they will now target US and it's interests as if it was Israel.
I suppose that is Bush's fault also. Welcome to post 9/11. I predict car bombs will start becoming more and more common here in the US.
I guess we should take a time out to understand their feelings about us. I hope you don't live near a big city.
Yay for us.
Sources?
Has there been a change in the candy-strip alert system?
Originally posted by faust9
Sources?
Has there been a change in the candy-strip alert system?
Do a goofle search. I am the source of my own opinions. That last post aside from the hamas part was my opinion.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Do a goofle search. I am the source of my own opinions. That last post aside from the hamas part was my opinion.
Well if your going to state fact then why don't you source it? The Hamas part by your own admission was a statement of fact.
Originally posted by faust9
Sources?
Has there been a change in the candy-strip alert system?
I appologise, I just figured that all the news sources would cover the threats from hamas toward the US.
I saw a blurb on fox today with a hamas leader and then the WH press secy. since it was fox I can't use it as a link for fear of being labeled stupid and right wing, so when the rest of the press catches up I guess you will get the news.
I goofled and found no mention of the threat itself. I guess the maket reacting to the news means nothing also. But they must watch fox there because like I said I can't find a mention of the actual threat by hamas.
I will continue to look.
Fellows
As for Richard Clarke: this guy is a liar. The Vice President said in a national radio interview today that he (the author) was out of the loop, he was pushed aside by Condi Rice and DEMOTED to some piss-on computer virus czar thing, thus he had a score to settle. and Kerry being out of the spotlight on vacation all week. happy coincident, i doubt it, the pieces fit so well.
Originally posted by a_greer
Is Viacom based out of Kt.? so much inbreeding so little time, the S&S bush-bash books get 60 Min. fluff with NO disclosure of the relationship, Leslie stall is no longer a news person, she is a book pusher.
As for Richard Clarke: this guy is a liar. The Vice President said in a national radio interview today that he (the author) was out of the loop, he was pushed aside by Condi Rice and DEMOTED to some piss-on computer virus czar thing, thus he had a score to settle. and Kerry being out of the spotlight on vacation all week. happy coincident, i doubt it, the pieces fit so well.
I think it is WV, hah.
Originally posted by a_greer
Is Viacom based out of Kt.? so much inbreeding so little time, the S&S bush-bash books get 60 Min. fluff with NO disclosure of the relationship, Leslie stall is no longer a news person, she is a book pusher.
As for Richard Clarke: this guy is a liar. The Vice President said in a national radio interview today that he (the author) was out of the loop, he was pushed aside by Condi Rice and DEMOTED to some piss-on computer virus czar thing, thus he had a score to settle. and Kerry being out of the spotlight on vacation all week. happy coincident, i doubt it, the pieces fit so well.
On RUSH LIMBAUGH'S SHOW, actually.
You know this whole line that clarke was "demoted" is misguided. the real issue here is that bush didn't think terrorism was important enough to warrant a cabinet-level position. the whole position was demoted, not just clarke. And he performed the same duties- he was still the counter-terrorism czar- cyberterrorism was just one of his pet issues.
If people could just get the facts straight for ONCE!
Originally posted by ShawnJ
On RUSH LIMBAUGH'S SHOW, actually.
You know this whole line that clarke was "demoted" is misguided. the real issue here is that bush didn't think terrorism was important enough to warrant a cabinet-level position. the whole position was demoted, not just clarke. And he performed the same duties- he was still the counter-terrorism czar- cyberterrorism was just one of his pet issues.
If people could just get the facts straight for ONCE!
this is what I was talking about:
This Clarke guy was demoted by Condoleezza Rice to the cyberspace unit. Nobody took it seriously, and he knows it. He was out, and this explains it.
source:
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/dai...k_c.guest.html