Gay Marriage? How about no marriage?

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 76
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Frank777



    Yes, and STD are a growing problem in the West.




    Actually, this is not quite true. STD rates are lower (here) than ever since the dark ages. Thanks to pro-condom campains in the aftermath of the HIV-epidemic. Thanks to antibiotics. Thanks to medicine.



    Just to rub it in: when there was no modern, scientific medicine but only prayers, syphilis was a major killer disease. Abstinence was preached by the church back then too - and it did nothing to stop the disease.







    Quote:

    Wow, so now the AIDS epidemic in AFRICA is Christianity's fault. That's a new one.



    And true none the less. The western disregard for Africa coupled with the christian disregard for pragmatic solutions has made the situation as bad as it is now. Every country worldwide with a secular government teaching proper condom use is better off concerning infection rate - especially the liberal countries of Europe.





    Quote:

    The Bible, and thus traditional Christian teaching, does not accept homosexual practice as healthy, so it's no surprise that church programs teach such things. Part of the whole "Freedom of Religion" thing.



    FYI, Christians hav been condemning unmarried heteros "living in sin" for as long as they've been preaching against homosexuality. It's not some personal vendetta against homosexuals being happy.




    Actually, it is.

    Unmarried hets can still get married, but the same christians are preventing gays from getting married. This is singling them out, this is double standards.



    Fundamentalist christian believe is - like islamism - a mental disease that has to be whipped clean off the face of the earth before it can damage the health and pursuit of happyness of even more people.
  • Reply 42 of 76
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Today's Globe and Mail has a story that touches on some of my previous points.



    For non-Canadians, The Globe and Mail is a national Canadian newspaper, usually leaning to the right economically, but left on social issues.
  • Reply 43 of 76
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle

    Actually, this is not quite true. STD rates are lower (here) than ever since the dark ages. Thanks to pro-condom campains in the aftermath of the HIV-epidemic. Thanks to antibiotics. Thanks to medicine.



    Just to rub it in: when there was no modern, scientific medicine but only prayers, syphilis was a major killer disease. Abstinence was preached by the church back then too - and it did nothing to stop the disease.




    Oh come on, back in the Dark Ages everything was a killer disease.

    Why do you think it was called the Dark Ages?



    Quote:

    And true none the less. The western disregard for Africa coupled with the christian disregard for pragmatic solutions has made the situation as bad as it is now. Every country worldwide with a secular government teaching proper condom use is better off concerning infection rate - especially the liberal countries of Europe.



    Not to go all Libertarian on you (that's BR's job), but perhaps you can explain why "western disregard for Africa" should be blamed for problems that occurred in their borders, not ours?



    While you're at it, try to come up with links to your assertion that countries with strong religious values have higher infection rates than secular ones.



    I would be the last to defend Islamic countries on anything, but I've never heard of their STD infection rates being higher than ours.



    Quote:

    Fundamentalist christian believe is - like islamism - a mental disease that has to be whipped clean off the face of the earth before it can damage the health and pursuit of happyness of even more people.



    Taking notes from Kirkland?
  • Reply 44 of 76
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle

    Fundamentalist christian believe is - like fundamentalist islamism - a mental disease that has to be whipped clean off the face of the earth before it can damage the health and pursuit of happyness of even more people.



    more like this.
  • Reply 45 of 76
    chinneychinney Posts: 1,019member
    Marriage is a state of mind and, for some, a pledge before God. Those who rely on a certificate from the state to 'validate' their marriage misunderstand what marriage is about. Indeed, although a Church ceremony is important - as ceremony - for many of religous faith, even this step is irrelevant to the marriage itself, because a pledge before God can as easily be made outside of Church. A certificate and Church ceremony will not make you faithful. A certificate and a Church ceremony will not help you raise children. What matters is the strenght of the union, which is a matter entirely beyond certificates and ceremonies.



    The ongoing debate about whether the state should sanction any marriage, gay or otherwise, is irrelevant to the core issue of marriage itself. It has some relevance to state benefits, although even here its relevance is limited because most seem ready to grant these benefits even in the case of civil unions.



    As I have posted before, the state should get out the the marriage business - it should neither recognize or not recognize marriages - and leave all people, heterosexual or gay, to marry in the way they deem fit, whether the pledge is made in a Church that accepts to perform a ceremony, before family and friends in a home, or even just as a matter between the two people involved. People can then decide whether to register civil unions for the purpose of state fiscal benefits, etc, but this is a matter entirely separate from the marriage itself.
  • Reply 46 of 76
    chinneychinney Posts: 1,019member
    double post
  • Reply 47 of 76
    crazychestercrazychester Posts: 1,339member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Frank777

    While you're at it, try to come up with links to your assertion that countries with strong religious values have higher infection rates than secular ones.





    That's not exactly what Smircle said but what's a bit of misquoting between friends. However, Smircle is right. The US is a very good example of a country that failed to deal with the HIV/AIDS problem properly because it did not promote safe sex using condoms and safe IV drug use.



    Australia is among the countries that did do this by providing free condoms and syringes (and continues to do so) from the early days of HIV/AIDS back in the mid 80's. That's why we have much lower HIV infection rates and AIDS cases than the US. Along with many European countries that took the same course of action. If you really want the stats say so and I'll dig them out and PM them to you because it's a bit OT. Or you can just believe when I tell that I know because I was there handing out the condoms and syringes and watching us get it right.
  • Reply 48 of 76
    kirklandkirkland Posts: 594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Wrong Robot

    more like this.



    "Islamism" is not the same as "Islam." That's why the word's different. Islamism refers to the sort of fundamentalist Islam that sponsors terrorism, since it is as much a political ideology as a religious one. A person who practices Islamism is not a Muslim, but an Islamist.



    At least, according to the emerging terminology. I'm not sure I like it.



    Kirk
  • Reply 49 of 76
    fellowshipfellowship Posts: 5,038member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle



    Fundamentalist christian believe is - like islamism - a mental disease that has to be whipped clean off the face of the earth before it can damage the health and pursuit of happyness of even more people.




    Don't start this crap or you will be banned in a flash.



    I hope I have been more than clear.



    Fellowship
  • Reply 50 of 76
    kirklandkirkland Posts: 594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Frank777

    Not to go all Libertarian on you (that's BR's job), but perhaps you can explain why "western disregard for Africa" should be blamed for problems that occurred in their borders, not ours?







    The implosion of Africa is the direct end result of European colonialism, much of which was motivated by a sham desire to convert the "heathens" to the typically barbaric forms of Christianity that were common in the 1700 and 1800s and exist today only in the cancer of fundamentalism.



    Kirk
  • Reply 51 of 76
    wrong robotwrong robot Posts: 3,907member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kirkland

    "Islamism" is not the same as "Islam." That's why the word's different. Islamism refers to the sort of fundamentalist Islam that sponsors terrorism, since it is as much a political ideology as a religious one. A person who practices Islamism is not a Muslim, but an Islamist.



    At least, according to the emerging terminology. I'm not sure I like it.



    Kirk




    ah, thanks for clarifying, I thought that 'islamism' was a little weird, but I just took it as an obscure way to say practitioner of islam, or something to that effect.



    Yeah, that is kind of silly, I know I have encountered similar words, but I can't think of any good examples, ah well.
  • Reply 52 of 76
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kirkland

    I do not want to "destroy" the concept of family. I want to have a family.









    This might go over the top but hear me out Kirk.



    If your lifestyle is okay, "profitable", etc. (and the lesbian lifestyle is the same) then it should be alright to reduce the world to a group of lesbian and "gay male" unions.



    so far so good.



    This reduces reproduction worldwide to each lesbian couple visiting a sperm bank and having 4.2 kids! We are left to assume that matters of inbreeding would have to be taken into consideration, so that most men would be required to Jack in the Box every now and then---with presumably some sort of Governmental organization overseeing the genetic considerations.





    Strange---compleletly impossible, but this is a logical extension of the gay lifestyle.





    Here is something more immediate to consider:



    When it comes to father-father parenting and mother-mother parenting: are the male gays holding motherhood in contempt or are the lesbians holding fatherhood in contempt?



    Or are these roles interchangable and outdated in a "scientific world".



    Agian, I'm not trying to be irritating here.
  • Reply 53 of 76
    kirklandkirkland Posts: 594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dmz

    If your lifestyle is okay, "profitable", etc. (and the lesbian lifestyle is the same) then it should be alright to reduce the world to a group of lesbian and "gay male" unions.



    That's nonsense. Your entire supposition is nonsense, and utter bigotry. There is NO SUCH THING as "the gay lifestyle."



    This doesn't even address the issue. There are gay people. We are naturally gay. We are not going away, no matter how many times you appeal to the hate demon you worship for us to do so.



    So deal with reality. Don't propose ludicrous fictional worlds. Deal with my questions in the context of reality.



    Quote:

    When it comes to father-father parenting and mother-mother parenting: are the male gays holding motherhood in contempt or are the lesbians holding fatherhood in contempt?



    No. Are single mother households holding fatherhood in contempt?



    When people stopped living with their extended families, were they holding grandparenthood in contempt?



    You presume that a child of two gay men will have no female role models when growing up. The chances of this are somewhere between slim and nil.



    Kirk
  • Reply 54 of 76
    dmzdmz Posts: 5,775member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kirkland

    No. Are single mother households holding fatherhood in contempt?





    Kirk






    absolutley (if only by defualt-- many times you have a weak man who has run out of the relationship)







    I wish you would address the on-demand nature of parenthood though. Mom-mom in thoery as opposed to Male-Male in theory.
  • Reply 55 of 76
    kirklandkirkland Posts: 594member
    Just because there's a single parent household does not mean that fatherhood is being denigrated. Parents get divorced, and often its better for the kids to have a stable home life with less arguing, less animosity, less rage.



    And what do I care about the on-demand nature of parenthood as you call it? I'll almost certainly never have kids. Does that make me any less deserving of the protections I mentioned above?



    There are plenty of legitimate reasons to get married aside from stuffing more noisy brats in an already crowded world.



    Kirk
  • Reply 56 of 76
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kirkland





    The implosion of Africa is the direct end result of European colonialism, much of which was motivated by a sham desire to convert the "heathens" to the typically barbaric forms of Christianity that were common in the 1700 and 1800s and exist today only in the cancer of fundamentalism.



    Kirk [/B]



    Oh, right. I forgot that everything evil in the world can ultimately be traced back to some Christian influence somewhere.



    The AIDS epidemic in Africa is directly related to the transient nature of employment and the subsequent divorce of marriage and fidelity. There are, of course, smaller contributing factors and influences.



    But there are plenty of places in the world that suffer from the scars of colonialism (India, much of South America etc.) whose countries have not imploded from an AIDS epidemic.
  • Reply 57 of 76
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    And the primary reason for colonialism was world dominance and accumulation of resources. It's actually what Columbus' sales pitch was to Isabella and Ferdinand.



    One day you will hopefully trip and fall headfirst into a book, and so broaden your thinking considerably.
  • Reply 58 of 76
    kirklandkirkland Posts: 594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Frank777

    And the primary reason for colonialism was world dominance and accumulation of resources. It's actually what Columbus' sales pitch was to Isabella and Ferdinand.



    One day you will hopefully trip and fall headfirst into a book, and so broaden your thinking considerably.




    I've probably read more books than you'll ever own.



    And yes, the primary governmental reason for colonialism was riches, but it was also couched and sold to the public as a great religious mission to "save" people from "hell."



    And as for the transitory employment, of course that's in the list of causes. But the root cause of almost ALL suffering in Africa is colonialism. Almost all of it. Including the poor economic situations, the poorly designed cities, etc. Colonialism raped the Dark Continent, partly in the name of Christ, and left Africa broken, broke and hopeless.



    Kirk
  • Reply 59 of 76
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kirkland

    And yes, the primary governmental reason for colonialism was riches, but it was also couched and sold to the public as a great religious mission to "save" people from "hell."



    Classic flawed revisionist thinking.



    We're not talking about 2004, with Western democracies are ruled by political spin and opinion polls. All the great powers of the day were kingdoms, and the Monarchs and elites were jockeying for power and influence. Nobody in the palaces lost sleep worrying how to "sell the program to the public."



    Everything was wrapped in patriotic language, to King, God and Country etc.

    But the idea that European countries launched into the new world to save the souls of "indians" and Africans running around half-naked is nonsense, and exhibits a lack of understanding of the period.
  • Reply 60 of 76
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Now the Crusades, on the other hand, had a deeply religious component to the project. But African colonialism was about money and power, not religion.
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