If God punishes me by sending me to hell despite the fact that I lived my life as a good human, but denied his existence, he doesn't deserve my praise.
Damn straight. There is no choice according to christianity. There is no free will. You cannot exercise free will with a gun to your head. LOVE ME OR BE DAMNED ETERNALLY! That's not free will.
Damn straight. There is no choice according to christianity. There is no free will. You cannot exercise free will with a gun to your head. LOVE ME OR BE DAMNED ETERNALLY! That's not free will.
That isnt true. Living your life with a conscious effort to try and seek the truth is just as good as finding it. And since there is no way to really find it but only struggle with the belief itself, you can die not believing but still go to heaven. It's what's inside.--That is some company's slogan I think.
That isnt true. Living your life with a conscious effort to try and seek the truth is just as good as finding it. And since there is no way to really find it but only struggle with the belief itself, you can die not believing but still go to heaven. It's what's inside.--That is some company's slogan I think.
Actually, perhaps for Catholicism/Episcopalianism the above is true, but as far as the other protestant religions go, most say that belief is crucial to entering heaven...
That isnt true. Living your life with a conscious effort to try and seek the truth is just as good as finding it. And since there is no way to really find it but only struggle with the belief itself, you can die not believing but still go to heaven. It's what's inside.--That is some company's slogan I think.
Yeah that's all fine and dandy except for that whole way to the father is through the son bs. That only applies if you are ingorant to it. I've been told about jesus and therefore I now have, according to christians, a gun to my head saying LOVE ME OR BE TORTURED FOREVER! That's not a loving god.
My only religion/goal/recommendation is to "do good". It's not enough to slip through life merely "not doing bad things".
I think that's where you might be amiss which causes nostalgia for church. Now you are merely trying to not do bad as opposed to actively doing good. But of course you don't need religion or church for that, its just that that is typically the instrument society does good through. But it's not the only way.
Of course, I am not constantly actively doing good things. That's the hard part - remembering.
And ideally the good done shouldn't be talked about much in a bragging sense, but anonymous if possible. Don't do it for God or your church or your family or yourself, but for the person you help or purely for the sake of doing the right thing.
Yeah that's all fine and dandy except for that whole way to the father is through the son bs. That only applies if you are ingorant to it. I've been told about jesus and therefore I now have, according to christians, a gun to my head saying LOVE ME OR BE TORTURED FOREVER! That's not a loving god.
You dont know what you are talking about man. In my opinion, you still are ignorant to what it's all about. I am a member of the Orthodox Church, one of the earliest forms of Christianity, and nowhere in our beliefs is it said that we love him or be tortured. Being a Christian is about trying to be your best, God or Jesus may never cross your mind in a day or a lifetime but what you do reflects who you are and where you should be when you die-if indeed there are a heaven and hell.
"Believe in God, or go to hell." Seems pretty clear cut, to me. Love God, or be tortured for all eternity.
That *is* the message that much of Christianity preaches. I'm glad your church does not... it's nice to seem out there that still adhere to the message of love, instead of one of fear.
"Believe in God, or go to hell." Seems pretty clear cut, to me. Love God, or be tortured for all eternity.
That *is* the message that much of Christianity preaches. I'm glad your church does not... it's nice to seem out there that still adhere to the message of love, instead of one of fear.
My God, if anything Christianity is all about love. Above all else, that is the clear cut message it tries to get across. We do say right before communion, "in the fear of God, with faith and love, draw near." So yes, there is some truth that fear is apart of the equation. But fear is the consequence of the belief in God, love is the result of that belief.
Yes, that is not the way it should be. The one thing those people seem to forget is that they judge people and therefore deny those people, sometimes hate them. To me, that is just as bad in the way that NOT believing in God is to those people.
And since the more vocal members of the larger Christian community *generally* are those that hold those evangelical beliefs, those are the people that most non-Christians run into in debates.
Voila. A feeling that "Christianity = lack of free will and is full of hate"
Some, yes. Not all.
Kind of like how Jihadism != Islam, you know?
I was raised in a seriously fundie church (Jehovah's Witnesses - you want a loony bin...), and spent a number of years investigating other religions, since to me, that *was* Christianity. A few years atheist, a few studying Buddhism, a few studying Hinduism, a couple training with a Cherokee shaman... guess what. They're all equally right, and all equally wrong, IMHO. There's a core thread that runs through all of them, that's simple and direct: "Love your neighbor as yourself." That's it. The rest is cultural and historical context. IMO, the best religious teachers are those that realize that and demonstrate that it's not what you say, or what church you go to, or how much you tithe... it's how you treat other people that matters. And that's all that really matters, in the end.
Personally, if I were to pick a Christian church nowadays, I'd seriously lean towards the Moravians. "In essentials, Unity; In nonessentials, Liberty; In all things, Love." is their creed. They have a core belief of the essentials of Christianity, but *everything else* is considered open to personal interpretation, adaptation, and direction. They encourage discussion and debate, instead of squelching it. They're kinda like Libertarian Christians.
The sad thing is, that you can't really get overly ticked at those bible-thumping evangelical types that follow the "Love God or burn" credo. If they truly believe that loving God is the only way *not* to burn, then it is their *duty* to save as many people as possible, just as most people would try and save a drowning person.
Unfortunately, it's like trying to save drowning people at a swim meet. Not everyone in the water is drowning, but if that's all you've ever learned, then you're going to annoy people. "Swim? It's impossible to survive in the water, you'll drown! Get out! No? Fine, I'll *drag* you out! It's for your own good!"
\
There's a logic to it that naturally follows if the base assumptions are never questioned.
Comments
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism...ts.html#pascal
Originally posted by HOM
If God punishes me by sending me to hell despite the fact that I lived my life as a good human, but denied his existence, he doesn't deserve my praise.
Damn straight. There is no choice according to christianity. There is no free will. You cannot exercise free will with a gun to your head. LOVE ME OR BE DAMNED ETERNALLY! That's not free will.
Originally posted by BR
Damn straight. There is no choice according to christianity. There is no free will. You cannot exercise free will with a gun to your head. LOVE ME OR BE DAMNED ETERNALLY! That's not free will.
That isnt true. Living your life with a conscious effort to try and seek the truth is just as good as finding it. And since there is no way to really find it but only struggle with the belief itself, you can die not believing but still go to heaven. It's what's inside.--That is some company's slogan I think.
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
That isnt true. Living your life with a conscious effort to try and seek the truth is just as good as finding it. And since there is no way to really find it but only struggle with the belief itself, you can die not believing but still go to heaven. It's what's inside.--That is some company's slogan I think.
Actually, perhaps for Catholicism/Episcopalianism the above is true, but as far as the other protestant religions go, most say that belief is crucial to entering heaven...
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
That isnt true. Living your life with a conscious effort to try and seek the truth is just as good as finding it. And since there is no way to really find it but only struggle with the belief itself, you can die not believing but still go to heaven. It's what's inside.--That is some company's slogan I think.
Yeah that's all fine and dandy except for that whole way to the father is through the son bs. That only applies if you are ingorant to it. I've been told about jesus and therefore I now have, according to christians, a gun to my head saying LOVE ME OR BE TORTURED FOREVER! That's not a loving god.
Fellows
I think that's where you might be amiss which causes nostalgia for church. Now you are merely trying to not do bad as opposed to actively doing good. But of course you don't need religion or church for that, its just that that is typically the instrument society does good through. But it's not the only way.
Of course, I am not constantly actively doing good things. That's the hard part - remembering.
And ideally the good done shouldn't be talked about much in a bragging sense, but anonymous if possible. Don't do it for God or your church or your family or yourself, but for the person you help or purely for the sake of doing the right thing.
Originally posted by Fellowship
BR surely you remember me saying I am taking you to heaven
Fellows
For the last time man I don't want to go to Oregon with you to get married.
Whoops, wrong thread.
Originally posted by BR
For the last time man I don't want to go to Oregon with you to get married.
Whoops, wrong thread.
Oh that is just grand! Truly, truly grand!
(and you're a funny old sausage Messiahtosh).
"I was talking about human beings, so no, sooners don't count."
"I love you."
"BR, I'm taking you to heaven with me..."
"...don't want to go to Oregon with you to be married."
I'm about to fall out of my chair.
Originally posted by BR
Yeah that's all fine and dandy except for that whole way to the father is through the son bs. That only applies if you are ingorant to it. I've been told about jesus and therefore I now have, according to christians, a gun to my head saying LOVE ME OR BE TORTURED FOREVER! That's not a loving god.
You dont know what you are talking about man. In my opinion, you still are ignorant to what it's all about. I am a member of the Orthodox Church, one of the earliest forms of Christianity, and nowhere in our beliefs is it said that we love him or be tortured. Being a Christian is about trying to be your best, God or Jesus may never cross your mind in a day or a lifetime but what you do reflects who you are and where you should be when you die-if indeed there are a heaven and hell.
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
...nowhere in our beliefs...
And most of Christianity disagrees with you.
"Believe in God, or go to hell." Seems pretty clear cut, to me. Love God, or be tortured for all eternity.
That *is* the message that much of Christianity preaches. I'm glad your church does not... it's nice to seem out there that still adhere to the message of love, instead of one of fear.
Originally posted by Kickaha
And most of Christianity disagrees with you.
"Believe in God, or go to hell." Seems pretty clear cut, to me. Love God, or be tortured for all eternity.
That *is* the message that much of Christianity preaches. I'm glad your church does not... it's nice to seem out there that still adhere to the message of love, instead of one of fear.
My God, if anything Christianity is all about love. Above all else, that is the clear cut message it tries to get across. We do say right before communion, "in the fear of God, with faith and love, draw near." So yes, there is some truth that fear is apart of the equation. But fear is the consequence of the belief in God, love is the result of that belief.
Many Christians (usually the more evangelical, bible-thumping fundamentalist kind), do not. Love, or burn, that's their vocalized belief.
Leaves a bad taste in your mouth, no?
And since the more vocal members of the larger Christian community *generally* are those that hold those evangelical beliefs, those are the people that most non-Christians run into in debates.
Voila. A feeling that "Christianity = lack of free will and is full of hate"
Some, yes. Not all.
Kind of like how Jihadism != Islam, you know?
I was raised in a seriously fundie church (Jehovah's Witnesses - you want a loony bin...), and spent a number of years investigating other religions, since to me, that *was* Christianity. A few years atheist, a few studying Buddhism, a few studying Hinduism, a couple training with a Cherokee shaman... guess what. They're all equally right, and all equally wrong, IMHO. There's a core thread that runs through all of them, that's simple and direct: "Love your neighbor as yourself." That's it. The rest is cultural and historical context. IMO, the best religious teachers are those that realize that and demonstrate that it's not what you say, or what church you go to, or how much you tithe... it's how you treat other people that matters. And that's all that really matters, in the end.
Personally, if I were to pick a Christian church nowadays, I'd seriously lean towards the Moravians. "In essentials, Unity; In nonessentials, Liberty; In all things, Love." is their creed. They have a core belief of the essentials of Christianity, but *everything else* is considered open to personal interpretation, adaptation, and direction. They encourage discussion and debate, instead of squelching it. They're kinda like Libertarian Christians.
Originally posted by Moogs
BEST religious thread..... in the HISTORY of all mankind.
i have to agree, mainly because it hasn't spiraled out of control into an online pissing contest. kudos to all of you.
The sad thing is, that you can't really get overly ticked at those bible-thumping evangelical types that follow the "Love God or burn" credo. If they truly believe that loving God is the only way *not* to burn, then it is their *duty* to save as many people as possible, just as most people would try and save a drowning person.
Unfortunately, it's like trying to save drowning people at a swim meet. Not everyone in the water is drowning, but if that's all you've ever learned, then you're going to annoy people. "Swim? It's impossible to survive in the water, you'll drown! Get out! No? Fine, I'll *drag* you out! It's for your own good!"
There's a logic to it that naturally follows if the base assumptions are never questioned.
Originally posted by running with scissors
i have to agree, mainly because it hasn't spiraled out of control into an online pissing contest. kudos to all of you.
mental note to self; do not post in this thread or I will be banned