And they were healthy again, so why not volunteer to go back? Because they hate America, that's why. Either that, or they were embarrassed by the war. Or they're just cowards.
Which is it?
Deny the facts all you want.
I would suggest that you visit a VFW and talk to some guys that served there, most are willing to tell their stories if they think you are interested. Judge for yourself if Kerry is on the Up and Up.
You made the claim, mate. You back it up. Find me a quote.
Find it yourself.
You guys can find claims from the most leftist in the world to support any number of theories. I found it, and I am not that smart, according to most of your compatriots.
What "facts"?? You said you know some guys who claim to be vets and who claim to have won medals who told you they didn't like their COs and then told you something about COs giving one another medals like easter candy, and you took it upon yourself to apply what they said to Kerry.
I don't see any facts in there.
Quote:
I would suggest that you visit a VFW and talk to some guys that served there, most are willing to tell their stories if they think you are interested.
Nah. It's easier just to talk to my family and their friends. It's not as far of a drive as the VFW, and it's all the same people, anyway.
What "facts"?? You said you know some guys who claim to be vets and who claim to have won medals who told you they didn't like their COs and then told you something about COs giving one another medals like easter candy, and you took it upon yourself to apply what they said to Kerry.
I don't see any facts in there.
Nah. It's easier just to talk to my family and their friends. It's not as far of a drive as the VFW, and it's all the same people, anyway.
I have.
Good then why are you even bothering to reply to me?
Yeah . . . I almost took this all a little personally . . . . this is what I was going to write . . . but since I'm quoting myself, I didn't actually write it . . so, no need to ban me moderators
The unposted thing I decided not to post:
Quote:
Midwinter is right, this thread IS SHAMEFUL!!!
and the idea of taking this tack . . . so obviously merely a response to the vast invisible and ubiquitous Bush PR machine is sickening sickening !!
You are idiots!!!!!! . . . ban me but this is too much . . . .
and they think that they have arrived at these thoughts all by themselves
I never realized to what extent Naples and Trumptman are idiots!!!! it is now truly revealed . . .their thoughts are merely the reflects of what the right-wingnut machine tells them to think ITS MADDENING!!!!!!!!!
WAKE up you asssholes . . . this man has three purple hearts a bronze star and a number of other medals . . . . and you have twisted it around to say that HE IS A MURDERING TRAITER!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! YOU ARE FUUCKED!!
and you'll suck the anus of a man who weedled his way out of service . . .or worse, as one of you tried to do, make THAT seem heroic by pointing out that he flew old planes!!!
A man who really really has American blood on his hands!!!
Yeah . . . I almost took this all a little personally . . . . this is what I was going to write . . . but since I'm quoting myself, I didn't actually write it . . so, no need to ban me moderators
The unposted thing I decided not to post: Good thing I didn't post it
Yeah good thing he did not post it. And good thing it was just a post of himself.
I see you went to the Kerry school of reasoning. I wrote it but I didn't actually write it. I posted it but since it was a quote of myself it really isn't a post.
I would suggest that you visit a VFW and talk to some guys that served there, most are willing to tell their stories if they think you are interested. Judge for yourself if Kerry is on the Up and Up.
I'm a VFW member. They finally let gulf war vets in. I go and hang out with my pop from time to time. Drink a beer and talk. Most of the guys at his chapter feel the smear campaigns of the GOP against vets who serve or country in the arena of politics is disgusting. Most of the guys I've chatted with support Kerry not the shrub. That's a first huh?
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
7E7, I'm still waiting on whether Zumwalt is a scoundrel who shells out un-meritorous medals of honor or a stand-up kindof guy (I believe him to be this). And what happened to those first hand accounts which you mentioned. Still waiting.
msantti, whats the status of this:
Quote:
I need to look up where I read it but there were servicemen who had limbs blown off who never received a Purple Heart.
I will get back with you all on that.
If you make crazy assertions you should back them up.
What happened to the other straw men? I thought you had first hand accounts from multiple sources which you used to sway your opinion. I thought you read articles from other GI's wwho made these accounts?
I like how you have tried to shift the argument from you original assertion that the medals were unwarranted at face value to most medals are unwarranted in the modern military. Kerry met the requirements for the medals. Case closed.
Again with the MJ article... Have taken the time to look at it. It is laid out using the publically available records as sources. It is factual. Like it or not it is correct and telling.
Being in Iraq in the first place is a failed policy. As I've stated in a previous post though this thread is not the time place for that discussion though.
The president's a big guy. He likes nicknames. The shrub fits...
What about Bush's flip-flops?
Finally this has to be your first presidential election if you think a sitting war time president leading by less than a handful of point by some accounts is not struggling. In the upcoming election, the looser will draw about 45% of the popular vote and the winner will draw about 55%. Both Kerry and Bush have a bsae of about 45% so there is a 10% or so margine of undecided voters... Undecided voters swing toward change in most cases. Bush is struggling and will be in more trouble when Kerry actually begins to campaign.
"I cannot trust somebody who says one thing and the exact opposite two months later."-- Didn't Bush vow to get UN support for the war and then not bother with that? Your guy has his fair share of evolving positions, so bringing this topic up requires that we look at both men. If you want you can dredge up a thread about this topic it ran about two weeks ago.
Gee, I thought Kerry was actually campaigning right now for President. I wasn't aware that he hadn't started...
I never actually said that Kerry's awards were unwarranted. But the fact that his wounds were such that he never missed a day in the field does make me question whether the Bronze Star was truly warranted. If his wounds were as severe as the citation for the award states one would have thought that he would have needed a least a couple of days in the hospital for recuperation. I will grant you that by the letter of the law, he probably did earn his Purple Hearts but I will not back away from my stance that his receiving awards on THREE separate occasions for relatively minor wounds strikes me as being just a little opportunistic. Other soldiers in the past have refused a third Purple Heart award as it would get them shipped back home and they preferred to stay and fight with their unit and remain along side their comrades since they certainly were physically able to do the job. Would you agree that Kerry's wounds must have been reasonably minor if he never spent a night in a hospital?
And to correct you on another point: Bush did not vow to get UN support for the war. He said he would go to the UN first to try to sway them towards the United States' position - which he did. He never took the use of force option off the table if he was unable to get their support. But it was the stupid French and the Russians that gave us the problem (as permanent members of the UN Security Counsel) along with the Germans. They wanted to put their business interests with Saddam Hussein ahead of enforcing the UN resolutions that were already on the books. We had all the authority we needed - legally - to go to war already. It was the UN that refused to recognize what it had already agreed to. As you are probably well aware there is a MAJOR investigation going on regarding the UN and the oil-for-food program they had with Iraq. It is looking very likely that some UN officials along with some key players of the countries I already mentioned took bribes from Saddam Hussein. The UN does not look like such a shining beacon of righteousness now does it? I guess that goes a long way towards explaining their lukewarm support for ridding the world of a murderous tyrant...
That business about Bush's alleged evolving positions now thoroughly debunked, one must point out that a lot of things can happen between now and November. It will be a very close race, probably similar to the 2000 election. But I feel that Bush will win in the end because there are still an awful lot of people out there that trust Bush on national security issues more than they trust Kerry. I think the poll numbers point that out. And as the economy is doing pretty well right now I would have to say that the odds are in his favor. I will acknowledge that the Iraq situation may well hold the key. If things begin to improve again then I would say he is a lock to win. If things are still in flux then it will be much tighter and there is a chance he could lose. That is the nature of national politics today. I mean, look at Bill Clinton. He never won more than 50% of the vote either time he won and that includes his 1996 re-election where he defeated Bob Dole, a guy who was hardly the most exciting and energetic candidate we have seen. I feel that things will improve in Iraq and I still think that we may well capture Bin Laden or his second in command before then. If those things happen, I think it will probably be a slam-dunk for Bush. It will be close, but the race won't be in the same kind of doubt.
Kerry has a lot of questons to answer - and I am not talking about his Vietnam experience. He really has not talked much about what he will do differently in Iraq if elected and most of his campaign speeches (yes, he really is campaigning for the office now despite your odd notion to the contrary) have been long on rhetoric and woefully short on details and specifics. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have actually been following this campaign rather closely.
And I did not say that MOST military awards were unwarranted in the modern military. So quote me properly, sir. What I did say was that a frightening number of awards were unwarranted. That is a big difference from your claim that I said most were unwarranted. I would not put a percentage on it but if even 5-10% of the awards were fraudulently awarded (again, that is a lot less than MOST) that to me is disturbing. Considering your assertion that there was little chance (I think that is at least in the spirit of what you said) that Bronze Stars and Silver Stars are ever awarded in questionable circumstances then I must point out to you that Bob Kerrey won a Bronze Star for an action that later turned out to be a war crime when a number of unarmed women and children were murdered in a Vietnamese village that was raided by the Navy SEAL team he was part of. Yeah, I guess he deserved the Bronze Star for that... Add this guy who admitted to committing a war crime sits on the 9/11 Commission. And I don't even want to get started on the Jamie Gorelick issue...
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
Kerry is now a documented liar, and I think he is getting a fair shake in this instance. He has played both sides of the fence too long and it is coming back on him.
That is beside the point, isn't it? I do not like lies and asserting that Kerry is some kind of hero is a lie. Asserting that he is some kind of anti-war hero while asserting he was a war hero is propagating two lies. Saying that his lies in front of congress somehow helped the soldiers that were still fighting, is yet another lie.
Most people I have argued with here, like to equivocate things that are not equal and then assert that you are overly partisan based on the fact that you do not see the equity.
I guess I would have to belittle Bush to prove my non-partisan views, according to you.
In your mind, I am what you believe I am. So what good would it do for me to argue otherwise?
I must point out to you that Bob Kerrey won a Bronze Star for an action that later turned out to be a war crime when a number of unarmed women and children were murdered in a Vietnamese village that was raided by the Navy SEAL team he was part of. Yeah, I guess he deserved the Bronze Star for that... Add this guy who admitted to committing a war crime sits on the 9/11 Commission. And I don't even want to get started on the Jamie Gorelick issue...
Note quite clearly that you said BOB Kerry . . . not John Kerry
I'm a VFW member. They finally let gulf war vets in. I go and hang out with my pop from time to time. Drink a beer and talk. Most of the guys at his chapter feel the smear campaigns of the GOP against vets who serve or country in the arena of politics is disgusting. Most of the guys I've chatted with support Kerry not the shrub. That's a first huh?
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
7E7, I'm still waiting on whether Zumwalt is a scoundrel who shells out un-meritorous medals of honor or a stand-up kindof guy (I believe him to be this). And what happened to those first hand accounts which you mentioned. Still waiting.
msantti, whats the status of this:
If you make crazy assertions you should back them up.
Why am I not surprised that the people you hang out with support Kerry? I seriously doubt you would hang out with a Republican - even if he was a fellow war veteran...
I think Zumwalt is a stand-up kind of guy. I will be honest in that I do not know if the views he had about Kerry came before he awarded him the Silver Star or after. I read what he has alleged to have said and I have not found anything that refutes the quotes attributed to him. And just because he pinned the award on him does that mean he was the one that recommended him for it? I admit that I am not entirely familiar with the ceremonial aspects of how the awards are actually given it out. Do senior military officers who may have had nothing to do with the nominating process actually make the official presentations for PR purposes and for the purposes of making such ceremonies more significant by their presence? And one must reiterate that since Kerry was the senior officer on his boat that the higher ranking officers who recommended him for such awards could only go on what he and/or his crew told them about the actions that resulted in his nomination for said awards.
I don't think I said that I had first hand accounts that dispute anything regarding this issue. What I did find were an awful lot of people who were very surprised at the scope of what Kerry managed to achieve in a three to four month period of combat action. I think there may have been one or two people who served with Kerry that have been outspoken in their criticism of him but I really don't know much about them or what their stories are - I was not referring to them. What I have read and discovered about this entire affair is more in the realm of reading about people who also served in Vietnam that expressed surprise that a man could compile that level of acheivement because nobody to their knowledge ever compiled a record that even remotely challenged what Kerry managed to do. As such my suspicions lay with circumstances that seem a bit fishy - minor injuries that never saw Kerry spend a night in hospital and citations for a Bronze Star that suggest greater injuries than the records seem to actually indicate. And Kerry has not been nearly as forthcoming with some of the information regarding his military service and all that leads to more questions than answers. Bush released all of his records and still there are people on the left that are not satisfied. At the same time Kerry has not released his complete service record (evaluations from former commanders and other details, etc.) and that to me is unacceptable because he is making his war record a big part of his campaign. Bush served his country and he has released his entire record and there is nothing there that says he did not do his duty in full. How can we be sure about Kerry if he has up to now refused to do likewise?
Note quite clearly that you said BOB Kerry . . . not John Kerry
Yes I said Bob Kerrey, not John Kerry. And if you bothered to read my entire post that I mentioned him as an example of somebody who received a military award that was not deserved. I hope you would agree that a war crime does not warrant the issuance of a Bronze Star...
I'm a VFW member. They finally let gulf war vets in. I go and hang out with my pop from time to time. Drink a beer and talk. Most of the guys at his chapter feel the smear campaigns of the GOP against vets who serve or country in the arena of politics is disgusting. Most of the guys I've chatted with support Kerry not the shrub. That's a first huh?
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
7E7, I'm still waiting on whether Zumwalt is a scoundrel who shells out un-meritorous medals of honor or a stand-up kindof guy (I believe him to be this). And what happened to those first hand accounts which you mentioned. Still waiting.
msantti, whats the status of this:
If you make crazy assertions you should back them up.
Seems like somebody who was there has some questions... Seems as if the Kerry camp is now taking credit for something somebody else did. Oh wait... This guy must be some right-wing wacko as well. As is Kerry's commanding officer who backs this officer's account and recalls Peck's injuries...
Seems like somebody who was there has some questions... Seems as if the Kerry camp is now taking credit for something somebody else did. Oh wait... This guy must be some right-wing wacko as well. As is Kerry's commanding officer who backs this officer's account and recalls Peck's injuries...
Jeez. Did you even read that piece? It looks like there are simple clerical errors in the Navy's record.
Jeez. Did you even read that piece? It looks like there are simple clerical errors in the Navy's record.
Yes, I did read the entire piece. And even if there were what you call "simple clerical errors" by the Navy you would think that Kerry would have read the reports and provided corrections of the inaccuracies. Did he not read the reports himself? I would have to say that he did or at least should of before he posted them on his website. He was only in country three or four months - it should not be that hard to remember which boats he commanded and when.
I wonder whn the Kerry campaign will respond to the allegations? Probably never as that is the way they tend to operate when confronted with adversity.
I wonder whn the Kerry campaign will respond to the allegations? Probably never as that is the way they tend to operate when confronted with adversity.
It isn't adversity, its vulgar and crass mudslinging and idiocy . . . desperate attempts to smear a personilty . . . .not like we aren't allready aware that teh Bush Machine (including its subsidiaries: Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox, Drudge, etc) don't know very well how to do that.
It doesn't matter how vile it is, or how in contradiction to their own prior assemsments of the person in question (O'Niell, Clarke) they will turn against the person in the dirtiest fashion imaginable and stoop as low as possible . . .
and yet, at the same time sing the praises of a man who truly deserves the mud
Comments
Originally posted by NaplesX
Look at any of his campaign propaganda over his political career. That is ace in the hole.
You made the claim, mate. You back it up. Find me a quote.
Originally posted by midwinter
And they were healthy again, so why not volunteer to go back? Because they hate America, that's why. Either that, or they were embarrassed by the war. Or they're just cowards.
Which is it?
Deny the facts all you want.
I would suggest that you visit a VFW and talk to some guys that served there, most are willing to tell their stories if they think you are interested. Judge for yourself if Kerry is on the Up and Up.
Originally posted by midwinter
You made the claim, mate. You back it up. Find me a quote.
Find it yourself.
You guys can find claims from the most leftist in the world to support any number of theories. I found it, and I am not that smart, according to most of your compatriots.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Deny the facts all you want.
What "facts"?? You said you know some guys who claim to be vets and who claim to have won medals who told you they didn't like their COs and then told you something about COs giving one another medals like easter candy, and you took it upon yourself to apply what they said to Kerry.
I don't see any facts in there.
I would suggest that you visit a VFW and talk to some guys that served there, most are willing to tell their stories if they think you are interested.
Nah. It's easier just to talk to my family and their friends. It's not as far of a drive as the VFW, and it's all the same people, anyway.
Judge for yourself if Kerry is on the Up and Up.
I have.
Originally posted by midwinter
What "facts"?? You said you know some guys who claim to be vets and who claim to have won medals who told you they didn't like their COs and then told you something about COs giving one another medals like easter candy, and you took it upon yourself to apply what they said to Kerry.
I don't see any facts in there.
Nah. It's easier just to talk to my family and their friends. It's not as far of a drive as the VFW, and it's all the same people, anyway.
I have.
Good then why are you even bothering to reply to me?
You seem to have taken this all too personally.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Good then why are you even bothering to reply to me?
You seem to have taken this all too personally.
You're projecting, I think. I'm playing a video game at the moment.
Originally posted by midwinter
You're projecting, I think. I'm playing a video game at the moment.
Sure.
The unposted thing I decided not to post:
Midwinter is right, this thread IS SHAMEFUL!!!
and the idea of taking this tack . . . so obviously merely a response to the vast invisible and ubiquitous Bush PR machine is sickening sickening !!
You are idiots!!!!!! . . . ban me but this is too much . . . .
and they think that they have arrived at these thoughts all by themselves
I never realized to what extent Naples and Trumptman are idiots!!!! it is now truly revealed . . .their thoughts are merely the reflects of what the right-wingnut machine tells them to think ITS MADDENING!!!!!!!!!
WAKE up you asssholes . . . this man has three purple hearts a bronze star and a number of other medals . . . . and you have twisted it around to say that HE IS A MURDERING TRAITER!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! YOU ARE FUUCKED!!
and you'll suck the anus of a man who weedled his way out of service . . .or worse, as one of you tried to do, make THAT seem heroic by pointing out that he flew old planes!!!
A man who really really has American blood on his hands!!!
it is too much too much
AAARRRRGH@
Good thing I didn't post it
Originally posted by pfflam
Yeah . . . I almost took this all a little personally . . . . this is what I was going to write . . . but since I'm quoting myself, I didn't actually write it . . so, no need to ban me moderators
The unposted thing I decided not to post: Good thing I didn't post it
Yeah good thing he did not post it. And good thing it was just a post of himself.
I see you went to the Kerry school of reasoning. I wrote it but I didn't actually write it. I posted it but since it was a quote of myself it really isn't a post.
I have to use those little smilies in this case.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Deny the facts all you want.
I would suggest that you visit a VFW and talk to some guys that served there, most are willing to tell their stories if they think you are interested. Judge for yourself if Kerry is on the Up and Up.
I'm a VFW member. They finally let gulf war vets in. I go and hang out with my pop from time to time. Drink a beer and talk. Most of the guys at his chapter feel the smear campaigns of the GOP against vets who serve or country in the arena of politics is disgusting. Most of the guys I've chatted with support Kerry not the shrub. That's a first huh?
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
7E7, I'm still waiting on whether Zumwalt is a scoundrel who shells out un-meritorous medals of honor or a stand-up kindof guy (I believe him to be this). And what happened to those first hand accounts which you mentioned. Still waiting.
msantti, whats the status of this:
I need to look up where I read it but there were servicemen who had limbs blown off who never received a Purple Heart.
I will get back with you all on that.
If you make crazy assertions you should back them up.
Originally posted by faust9
What happened to the other straw men? I thought you had first hand accounts from multiple sources which you used to sway your opinion. I thought you read articles from other GI's wwho made these accounts?
I like how you have tried to shift the argument from you original assertion that the medals were unwarranted at face value to most medals are unwarranted in the modern military. Kerry met the requirements for the medals. Case closed.
Again with the MJ article... Have taken the time to look at it. It is laid out using the publically available records as sources. It is factual. Like it or not it is correct and telling.
Being in Iraq in the first place is a failed policy. As I've stated in a previous post though this thread is not the time place for that discussion though.
The president's a big guy. He likes nicknames. The shrub fits...
What about Bush's flip-flops?
Finally this has to be your first presidential election if you think a sitting war time president leading by less than a handful of point by some accounts is not struggling. In the upcoming election, the looser will draw about 45% of the popular vote and the winner will draw about 55%. Both Kerry and Bush have a bsae of about 45% so there is a 10% or so margine of undecided voters... Undecided voters swing toward change in most cases. Bush is struggling and will be in more trouble when Kerry actually begins to campaign.
"I cannot trust somebody who says one thing and the exact opposite two months later."-- Didn't Bush vow to get UN support for the war and then not bother with that? Your guy has his fair share of evolving positions, so bringing this topic up requires that we look at both men. If you want you can dredge up a thread about this topic it ran about two weeks ago.
Gee, I thought Kerry was actually campaigning right now for President. I wasn't aware that he hadn't started...
I never actually said that Kerry's awards were unwarranted. But the fact that his wounds were such that he never missed a day in the field does make me question whether the Bronze Star was truly warranted. If his wounds were as severe as the citation for the award states one would have thought that he would have needed a least a couple of days in the hospital for recuperation. I will grant you that by the letter of the law, he probably did earn his Purple Hearts but I will not back away from my stance that his receiving awards on THREE separate occasions for relatively minor wounds strikes me as being just a little opportunistic. Other soldiers in the past have refused a third Purple Heart award as it would get them shipped back home and they preferred to stay and fight with their unit and remain along side their comrades since they certainly were physically able to do the job. Would you agree that Kerry's wounds must have been reasonably minor if he never spent a night in a hospital?
And to correct you on another point: Bush did not vow to get UN support for the war. He said he would go to the UN first to try to sway them towards the United States' position - which he did. He never took the use of force option off the table if he was unable to get their support. But it was the stupid French and the Russians that gave us the problem (as permanent members of the UN Security Counsel) along with the Germans. They wanted to put their business interests with Saddam Hussein ahead of enforcing the UN resolutions that were already on the books. We had all the authority we needed - legally - to go to war already. It was the UN that refused to recognize what it had already agreed to. As you are probably well aware there is a MAJOR investigation going on regarding the UN and the oil-for-food program they had with Iraq. It is looking very likely that some UN officials along with some key players of the countries I already mentioned took bribes from Saddam Hussein. The UN does not look like such a shining beacon of righteousness now does it? I guess that goes a long way towards explaining their lukewarm support for ridding the world of a murderous tyrant...
That business about Bush's alleged evolving positions now thoroughly debunked, one must point out that a lot of things can happen between now and November. It will be a very close race, probably similar to the 2000 election. But I feel that Bush will win in the end because there are still an awful lot of people out there that trust Bush on national security issues more than they trust Kerry. I think the poll numbers point that out. And as the economy is doing pretty well right now I would have to say that the odds are in his favor. I will acknowledge that the Iraq situation may well hold the key. If things begin to improve again then I would say he is a lock to win. If things are still in flux then it will be much tighter and there is a chance he could lose. That is the nature of national politics today. I mean, look at Bill Clinton. He never won more than 50% of the vote either time he won and that includes his 1996 re-election where he defeated Bob Dole, a guy who was hardly the most exciting and energetic candidate we have seen. I feel that things will improve in Iraq and I still think that we may well capture Bin Laden or his second in command before then. If those things happen, I think it will probably be a slam-dunk for Bush. It will be close, but the race won't be in the same kind of doubt.
Kerry has a lot of questons to answer - and I am not talking about his Vietnam experience. He really has not talked much about what he will do differently in Iraq if elected and most of his campaign speeches (yes, he really is campaigning for the office now despite your odd notion to the contrary) have been long on rhetoric and woefully short on details and specifics. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have actually been following this campaign rather closely.
And I did not say that MOST military awards were unwarranted in the modern military. So quote me properly, sir. What I did say was that a frightening number of awards were unwarranted. That is a big difference from your claim that I said most were unwarranted. I would not put a percentage on it but if even 5-10% of the awards were fraudulently awarded (again, that is a lot less than MOST) that to me is disturbing. Considering your assertion that there was little chance (I think that is at least in the spirit of what you said) that Bronze Stars and Silver Stars are ever awarded in questionable circumstances then I must point out to you that Bob Kerrey won a Bronze Star for an action that later turned out to be a war crime when a number of unarmed women and children were murdered in a Vietnamese village that was raided by the Navy SEAL team he was part of. Yeah, I guess he deserved the Bronze Star for that... Add this guy who admitted to committing a war crime sits on the 9/11 Commission. And I don't even want to get started on the Jamie Gorelick issue...
Originally posted by faust9
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
Kerry is now a documented liar, and I think he is getting a fair shake in this instance. He has played both sides of the fence too long and it is coming back on him.
That is beside the point, isn't it? I do not like lies and asserting that Kerry is some kind of hero is a lie. Asserting that he is some kind of anti-war hero while asserting he was a war hero is propagating two lies. Saying that his lies in front of congress somehow helped the soldiers that were still fighting, is yet another lie.
Most people I have argued with here, like to equivocate things that are not equal and then assert that you are overly partisan based on the fact that you do not see the equity.
I guess I would have to belittle Bush to prove my non-partisan views, according to you.
In your mind, I am what you believe I am. So what good would it do for me to argue otherwise?
Originally posted by 7E7
I must point out to you that Bob Kerrey won a Bronze Star for an action that later turned out to be a war crime when a number of unarmed women and children were murdered in a Vietnamese village that was raided by the Navy SEAL team he was part of. Yeah, I guess he deserved the Bronze Star for that... Add this guy who admitted to committing a war crime sits on the 9/11 Commission. And I don't even want to get started on the Jamie Gorelick issue...
Note quite clearly that you said BOB Kerry . . . not John Kerry
Originally posted by faust9
I'm a VFW member. They finally let gulf war vets in. I go and hang out with my pop from time to time. Drink a beer and talk. Most of the guys at his chapter feel the smear campaigns of the GOP against vets who serve or country in the arena of politics is disgusting. Most of the guys I've chatted with support Kerry not the shrub. That's a first huh?
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
7E7, I'm still waiting on whether Zumwalt is a scoundrel who shells out un-meritorous medals of honor or a stand-up kindof guy (I believe him to be this). And what happened to those first hand accounts which you mentioned. Still waiting.
msantti, whats the status of this:
If you make crazy assertions you should back them up.
Why am I not surprised that the people you hang out with support Kerry? I seriously doubt you would hang out with a Republican - even if he was a fellow war veteran...
I think Zumwalt is a stand-up kind of guy. I will be honest in that I do not know if the views he had about Kerry came before he awarded him the Silver Star or after. I read what he has alleged to have said and I have not found anything that refutes the quotes attributed to him. And just because he pinned the award on him does that mean he was the one that recommended him for it? I admit that I am not entirely familiar with the ceremonial aspects of how the awards are actually given it out. Do senior military officers who may have had nothing to do with the nominating process actually make the official presentations for PR purposes and for the purposes of making such ceremonies more significant by their presence? And one must reiterate that since Kerry was the senior officer on his boat that the higher ranking officers who recommended him for such awards could only go on what he and/or his crew told them about the actions that resulted in his nomination for said awards.
I don't think I said that I had first hand accounts that dispute anything regarding this issue. What I did find were an awful lot of people who were very surprised at the scope of what Kerry managed to achieve in a three to four month period of combat action. I think there may have been one or two people who served with Kerry that have been outspoken in their criticism of him but I really don't know much about them or what their stories are - I was not referring to them. What I have read and discovered about this entire affair is more in the realm of reading about people who also served in Vietnam that expressed surprise that a man could compile that level of acheivement because nobody to their knowledge ever compiled a record that even remotely challenged what Kerry managed to do. As such my suspicions lay with circumstances that seem a bit fishy - minor injuries that never saw Kerry spend a night in hospital and citations for a Bronze Star that suggest greater injuries than the records seem to actually indicate. And Kerry has not been nearly as forthcoming with some of the information regarding his military service and all that leads to more questions than answers. Bush released all of his records and still there are people on the left that are not satisfied. At the same time Kerry has not released his complete service record (evaluations from former commanders and other details, etc.) and that to me is unacceptable because he is making his war record a big part of his campaign. Bush served his country and he has released his entire record and there is nothing there that says he did not do his duty in full. How can we be sure about Kerry if he has up to now refused to do likewise?
Originally posted by pfflam
Note quite clearly that you said BOB Kerry . . . not John Kerry
Yes I said Bob Kerrey, not John Kerry. And if you bothered to read my entire post that I mentioned him as an example of somebody who received a military award that was not deserved. I hope you would agree that a war crime does not warrant the issuance of a Bronze Star...
Originally posted by faust9
I'm a VFW member. They finally let gulf war vets in. I go and hang out with my pop from time to time. Drink a beer and talk. Most of the guys at his chapter feel the smear campaigns of the GOP against vets who serve or country in the arena of politics is disgusting. Most of the guys I've chatted with support Kerry not the shrub. That's a first huh?
Naples, I have a question for ya. All of the threads that degrade to Bush bashing you seem to jump in and "Play the Devils Advocate" as a nonpartisan. You say you don't care who wins. You say your just defending Bush because he's not getting a fair shake. Why not do the same for Kerry here? Kerry might not be getting a fair shake so it seems logical that a guy who is a non-partisan defender of the opressed politicians would jump right on the protect the Kerry band wagon. So why have you decided to take the other view against Kerry?
Oh, I know even though you've protested to the contrary this thread truely shows how partisan you are. I've read through most threads that you've replied to and found no derogatory comments about Bush but abundant attacks against Kerry but you're not pro-Bush though. Riigghhtt....
7E7, I'm still waiting on whether Zumwalt is a scoundrel who shells out un-meritorous medals of honor or a stand-up kindof guy (I believe him to be this). And what happened to those first hand accounts which you mentioned. Still waiting.
msantti, whats the status of this:
If you make crazy assertions you should back them up.
To Faust 9:
Here is a link for you:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...kerrys_record/
Seems like somebody who was there has some questions... Seems as if the Kerry camp is now taking credit for something somebody else did. Oh wait... This guy must be some right-wing wacko as well. As is Kerry's commanding officer who backs this officer's account and recalls Peck's injuries...
Originally posted by 7E7
To Faust 9:
Here is a link for you:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...kerrys_record/
Seems like somebody who was there has some questions... Seems as if the Kerry camp is now taking credit for something somebody else did. Oh wait... This guy must be some right-wing wacko as well. As is Kerry's commanding officer who backs this officer's account and recalls Peck's injuries...
Jeez. Did you even read that piece? It looks like there are simple clerical errors in the Navy's record.
Originally posted by midwinter
Jeez. Did you even read that piece? It looks like there are simple clerical errors in the Navy's record.
Yes, I did read the entire piece. And even if there were what you call "simple clerical errors" by the Navy you would think that Kerry would have read the reports and provided corrections of the inaccuracies. Did he not read the reports himself? I would have to say that he did or at least should of before he posted them on his website. He was only in country three or four months - it should not be that hard to remember which boats he commanded and when.
I wonder whn the Kerry campaign will respond to the allegations? Probably never as that is the way they tend to operate when confronted with adversity.
Originally posted by 7E7
I wonder whn the Kerry campaign will respond to the allegations? Probably never as that is the way they tend to operate when confronted with adversity.
It isn't adversity, its vulgar and crass mudslinging and idiocy . . . desperate attempts to smear a personilty . . . .not like we aren't allready aware that teh Bush Machine (including its subsidiaries: Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox, Drudge, etc) don't know very well how to do that.
It doesn't matter how vile it is, or how in contradiction to their own prior assemsments of the person in question (O'Niell, Clarke) they will turn against the person in the dirtiest fashion imaginable and stoop as low as possible . . .
and yet, at the same time sing the praises of a man who truly deserves the mud