That's so stupid it's not worth replying to. So I'll stop now.
Sure its a little hyperbole, but, there is a possibility of just this sort of conflict of interests whether it is unbelieveable or not.
And deny it as you like, but the more insecure the situation is in Iraq for the numerous private corporations that are doing the jobs that once the Army Corp of Engineers would have done, the more these Private Security companies -that are doing jobs that soldiers would have done- are rolling in the dough . . . . they make enormous amounts of money . . . the more they are needed the more they make . . . If all is secure then they make no money . . that is a simple truth
Of course, any student of human nature nows that nobody would ever find such bounty wonderful . . .
But anyway, that is but one in a line of objections . . . and of course you are only capable of seeing one . . .
You want stupid Scott? How about the attitude that submits: "Either you're for Israel and everything it does, or you're a Jew-hater."
Ever consider that it's not you being close to "the truth" that pisses people off, but that they don't like being labeled with a very ugly word by someone who has absolutely NO basis for suggesting the same?
Hint: I wonder how many Jews here in the States have a problem with Israeli policy... I'm guessing it's a number in the tens of thousands. Maybe they're all Jew-haters too. Oop... wait a minute... they ARE Jews. Silly me.
I think there's a good reason why people are slanted against Israel. You can't condemn Israel at every turn, expect nothing from the arab muslims and remain mute to the terrorism and not show you're true colors.
OK. I'll buy that. Show me one person on this board who slams every decision made by Israeli government and who at the same time condones every move by the Palestinians. Unless I missed something, I don't recall seeing a single person on this board who came even remotely close to that description.
Most people here are perfectly forthcoming in acknowledging that both the Israeli government (over the past few years) and the PLO / Palestinian militia groups have done some very stupid and damaging things to the peace process.
Yet you seem to always ignore that fact and just notice the part about criticizing the Israelis, Scott. That's patently unfair and a bit slanderous if you want to get technical about it. I've never heard you say a good word about any of the concessions Arafat or anyone else who is Palestinian has made since the time of Clinton until now, yet no one calls you an "Muslim Hater".
Just take a step back and recognize that you don't really have any basis for using such a harsh label to describe anyone here.
The views of Sharon or the Israeli government do not equat to the views of all Jews (in this or any other country).
There are Jews all over the world who have nothing to do with Israel other than sharing the same religion. Is it fair that you try to group them together that way? Again, how many Jews are there in America? Several million at least? Are you saying all of those people, just by virtue of their religion, have an affinity for Sharon (for example)? I certainly would never make that assumption.
That's like saying because all Irish people in the US support the IRA (or all British people support Blair). You just can't make those kinds of assumptions.
No, but it happens a lot and I'd really like to get to the bottom of it so we can hopefully avoid derailing other threads in the future. And not just relating to Jews... any group.
Anyone with a lick of common sense can understand why it's a bad idea to have paid militia acting on behalf of the US government in a foreign country... maybe we can kill two birds with one stone.
Yet another sign of a corrupt administration at work...
I'm thinking we should bring back Napoleonic tactics----maybe do the whole British Square thing all over with .58 cal smooth bore muzzle loaders. We could dress our guys in really loud uniforms and put them in open terrian and see if they can hold formation as the mortars fall in their ranks. Just to see if they can do it---really bring back that rousing esprit de corps from the Crimean War.
These people are security guards and body guards. Come back to earth.
They are mercenaries.
Dyncorp, the same dyncorp involved in human and drug trafficking in Bosnia, holds the contract to train Iraq's police.
Others are training Iraq's army.
and...
Quote:
Sometimes, these assignments are described euphemistically as "private security" to make them sound less military. But these are not private guards who stroll at the local shopping mall. They involve personnel with military skills and weapons who carry out military functions, within a war zone, against military-level threats. Custer Battles, for example, is a Virginia firm that has the airport security contract in Baghdad. Airport security in this context does not mean bored attendees standing by an X-ray machine, but rather former Green Berets and Ghurka fighters defending the airport from mortars, rockets and snipers.
In short, the roles performed by these firms entail the same risks or even greater ones than those faced by U.S. military forces. As fighting has spread, PMFs have been at the forefront. Blackwater, the firm that lost the four men in Fallujah, just days later defended the CPA headquarters in Najaf from being overrun by radical Shiite militia. The firefight lasted several hours, with thousands of rounds of ammunition fired, and Blackwater even sent in its own helicopters twice to resupply its commandos with ammunition and to ferry out a wounded U.S. Marine. The same night, Hart Group, Control Risks and Triple Canopy were all involved in pitched battles. Unfortunately, the Hart position was overrun. Abandoned by nearby Coalition forces, the firm's employees had to leave one of their comrades dead on a rooftop on which he and four colleagues had been fighting after their house had been captured.
OK. I'll buy that. Show me one person on this board who slams every decision made by Israeli government and who at the same time condones every move by the Palestinians.
He can't do it. Silencing hypocrites is very easy (getting too close to the truth are we?).
And just for good measure, Arafat is a corrupt fool whose actions are at best ineffectual. Someone that kills a civillian on purpose isn't engaged in war, but senseless murder and deserves a death much slower and painful then the end of a suicide bomber.
Does that make me an Arab-hater Scotty-boy? Care to point out how Israel policies are doing nothing to keep the peace for us now?
Oh, and PLEASE look up the difference between 'YOUR' and 'YOU'RE'. Unlike you, I have a degree and your adulteration of the English language is really annoying.
The real corruption here is that many of these "security guards" are coming from the special forces, people the US taxpayer have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars training, but who are now getting out the military so they can make many times the money doing the job they were trained for. The pay in Iraq is huge for even the most common job when it is done by a contractor. A recent NY Times article talked about how engineers where making up to $350,000 a year while in Iraq. Even with all these kidnappings and killings people are applying like mad to work in Iraq just because the pay is so high. This money isn't coming from Iraqis either, it our tax dollars. It always amazes me how the right is always bitching and moaning about government mismanagement and waste EXCEPT when it comes from the military, which seems to do no wrong in their eyes.
The real corruption here is that many of these "security guards" are coming from the special forces, people the US taxpayer have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars training, but who are now getting out the military so they can make many times the money doing the job they were trained for. The pay in Iraq is huge for even the most common job when it is done by a contractor. A recent NY Times article talked about how engineers where making up to $350,000 a year while in Iraq. Even with all these kidnappings and killings people are applying like mad to work in Iraq just because the pay is so high. This money isn't coming from Iraqis either, it our tax dollars. It always amazes me how the right is always bitching and moaning about government mismanagement and waste EXCEPT when it comes from the military, which seems to do no wrong in their eyes.
Once again the word "Corruption" and yet I seen none here either.
How much would it take for you to go to Iraq and expose yourself to the distinct possibility that something bad will happen?
There is a huge need for these positions to be filled with people that wont sabotage or corrupt the system. It is called incentive not corruption,
Not only that, the government overspends on everything and wastes money on any given program, why should this be any different and why are you not complaining about the "corruption" of say welfare or assisted living or any number of other domestic programs that are leaking money like a sieve?
How much would it take for you to go to Iraq and expose yourself to the distinct possibility that something bad will happen?
Naples, these are not random people. These people are from the military, often special forces types. The companies are run by and staffed by US military, all the way up to four-star generals. In fact, the outflow of special forces to private mercenary firms has caused staffing problems in militaries. It's actually become a problem for our military. As pointed out in the article above, there are reportedly more former SAS working as mercenaries in Iraq than current SAS soldiers.
It's the outsourcing/privatization of our military. There is little oversight and since the companies are motivated by profit, you have a situation where human rights issues often arise.
There have already been many problems. On the human rights side you have dyncorp which, as I already mentioned, got involved in human trafficking. On the other end you have Halliburton, which we all know has a llloooonnnnnggggg history of corruption.
Naples, you don't see any possibility of corruption because you don't want to see any. God forbid any Bush supporter actually admitting there is the possibility of bad decisions being made in Iraq... tantamount to treason!!
There is little oversight and since the companies are motivated by profit, you have a situation where human rights issues often arise.
This may, in fact, be the point. The gloves may come all the way off here. Eventually the Black Flag is going to be raised by the west---the "insurgents" have already raised theirs.
America is not the military power it once was, it is pretty telling that it is stretched to the limit with the invasion of a small country. Hiring asymetric repsonses may be the whole point with these "security firms" it would allow countries not offically interested in helping out to get involved with the situation. I would imagine that we are trying to find the center of gravity of the insurgents in a multitude of ways---some of which undoubtably involve tactics and methods which are almost certainly unsavory.
Insisting this business stay squeaky clean is not realistic---we may have to use 7th century methods to fight 7th century thinking.
It has nothing to do with the current battles or wars. This shift has been happening for years. The problem is that highly skilled soldiers can make MUCH more money by working for mercenary companies.
Right now there are more mercenaries in Iraq than British troops. This presents a problem since there is very little oversight. The mercenaries are fighting in our name but aren't under the same control. Not a good thing.
Naples, you don't see any possibility of corruption because you don't want to see any. God forbid any Bush supporter actually admitting there is the possibility of bad decisions being made in Iraq... tantamount to treason!!
There is possibility for bad decisions to be made anywhere at anytime.
You however are jumping to conclusions long before the outcome of said decisions come to maturity. I have a problem with that.
Comments
Originally posted by pfflam
...
Start to see a possible conflict of interest: America in Chaos is Corporations in profit
...
That's so stupid it's not worth replying to. So I'll stop now.
Originally posted by Scott
That's so stupid it's not worth replying to. So I'll stop now.
Sure its a little hyperbole, but, there is a possibility of just this sort of conflict of interests whether it is unbelieveable or not.
And deny it as you like, but the more insecure the situation is in Iraq for the numerous private corporations that are doing the jobs that once the Army Corp of Engineers would have done, the more these Private Security companies -that are doing jobs that soldiers would have done- are rolling in the dough . . . . they make enormous amounts of money . . . the more they are needed the more they make . . . If all is secure then they make no money . . that is a simple truth
Of course, any student of human nature nows that nobody would ever find such bounty wonderful . . .
But anyway, that is but one in a line of objections . . . and of course you are only capable of seeing one . . .
Ever consider that it's not you being close to "the truth" that pisses people off, but that they don't like being labeled with a very ugly word by someone who has absolutely NO basis for suggesting the same?
Hint: I wonder how many Jews here in the States have a problem with Israeli policy... I'm guessing it's a number in the tens of thousands. Maybe they're all Jew-haters too. Oop... wait a minute... they ARE Jews. Silly me.
Most people here are perfectly forthcoming in acknowledging that both the Israeli government (over the past few years) and the PLO / Palestinian militia groups have done some very stupid and damaging things to the peace process.
Yet you seem to always ignore that fact and just notice the part about criticizing the Israelis, Scott. That's patently unfair and a bit slanderous if you want to get technical about it. I've never heard you say a good word about any of the concessions Arafat or anyone else who is Palestinian has made since the time of Clinton until now, yet no one calls you an "Muslim Hater".
Just take a step back and recognize that you don't really have any basis for using such a harsh label to describe anyone here.
The views of Sharon or the Israeli government do not equat to the views of all Jews (in this or any other country).
There are Jews all over the world who have nothing to do with Israel other than sharing the same religion. Is it fair that you try to group them together that way? Again, how many Jews are there in America? Several million at least? Are you saying all of those people, just by virtue of their religion, have an affinity for Sharon (for example)? I certainly would never make that assumption.
That's like saying because all Irish people in the US support the IRA (or all British people support Blair). You just can't make those kinds of assumptions.
THis thread is about private armies, mercenaries . . . get on topic please.
Anyone with a lick of common sense can understand why it's a bad idea to have paid militia acting on behalf of the US government in a foreign country... maybe we can kill two birds with one stone.
Originally posted by Moogs
Yet another sign of a corrupt administration at work...
I'm thinking we should bring back Napoleonic tactics----maybe do the whole British Square thing all over with .58 cal smooth bore muzzle loaders. We could dress our guys in really loud uniforms and put them in open terrian and see if they can hold formation as the mortars fall in their ranks. Just to see if they can do it---really bring back that rousing esprit de corps from the Crimean War.
I'd be really---cool.
Originally posted by NaplesX
These people are security guards and body guards. Come back to earth.
They are mercenaries.
Dyncorp, the same dyncorp involved in human and drug trafficking in Bosnia, holds the contract to train Iraq's police.
Others are training Iraq's army.
and...
Sometimes, these assignments are described euphemistically as "private security" to make them sound less military. But these are not private guards who stroll at the local shopping mall. They involve personnel with military skills and weapons who carry out military functions, within a war zone, against military-level threats. Custer Battles, for example, is a Virginia firm that has the airport security contract in Baghdad. Airport security in this context does not mean bored attendees standing by an X-ray machine, but rather former Green Berets and Ghurka fighters defending the airport from mortars, rockets and snipers.
In short, the roles performed by these firms entail the same risks or even greater ones than those faced by U.S. military forces. As fighting has spread, PMFs have been at the forefront. Blackwater, the firm that lost the four men in Fallujah, just days later defended the CPA headquarters in Najaf from being overrun by radical Shiite militia. The firefight lasted several hours, with thousands of rounds of ammunition fired, and Blackwater even sent in its own helicopters twice to resupply its commandos with ammunition and to ferry out a wounded U.S. Marine. The same night, Hart Group, Control Risks and Triple Canopy were all involved in pitched battles. Unfortunately, the Hart position was overrun. Abandoned by nearby Coalition forces, the firm's employees had to leave one of their comrades dead on a rooftop on which he and four colleagues had been fighting after their house had been captured.
http://www.brookings.org/views/artic...er20040415.htm
Read the rest of the article to get up to speed.
Originally posted by Moogs
OK. I'll buy that. Show me one person on this board who slams every decision made by Israeli government and who at the same time condones every move by the Palestinians.
All quiet on the Western Front....
Originally posted by bunge
All quiet on the Western Front....
He can't do it. Silencing hypocrites is very easy (getting too close to the truth are we?).
And just for good measure, Arafat is a corrupt fool whose actions are at best ineffectual. Someone that kills a civillian on purpose isn't engaged in war, but senseless murder and deserves a death much slower and painful then the end of a suicide bomber.
Does that make me an Arab-hater Scotty-boy? Care to point out how Israel policies are doing nothing to keep the peace for us now?
Oh, and PLEASE look up the difference between 'YOUR' and 'YOU'RE'. Unlike you, I have a degree and your adulteration of the English language is really annoying.
Originally posted by craiger77
The real corruption here is that many of these "security guards" are coming from the special forces, people the US taxpayer have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars training, but who are now getting out the military so they can make many times the money doing the job they were trained for. The pay in Iraq is huge for even the most common job when it is done by a contractor. A recent NY Times article talked about how engineers where making up to $350,000 a year while in Iraq. Even with all these kidnappings and killings people are applying like mad to work in Iraq just because the pay is so high. This money isn't coming from Iraqis either, it our tax dollars. It always amazes me how the right is always bitching and moaning about government mismanagement and waste EXCEPT when it comes from the military, which seems to do no wrong in their eyes.
Once again the word "Corruption" and yet I seen none here either.
How much would it take for you to go to Iraq and expose yourself to the distinct possibility that something bad will happen?
There is a huge need for these positions to be filled with people that wont sabotage or corrupt the system. It is called incentive not corruption,
Not only that, the government overspends on everything and wastes money on any given program, why should this be any different and why are you not complaining about the "corruption" of say welfare or assisted living or any number of other domestic programs that are leaking money like a sieve?
Originally posted by NaplesX
How much would it take for you to go to Iraq and expose yourself to the distinct possibility that something bad will happen?
Naples, these are not random people. These people are from the military, often special forces types. The companies are run by and staffed by US military, all the way up to four-star generals. In fact, the outflow of special forces to private mercenary firms has caused staffing problems in militaries. It's actually become a problem for our military. As pointed out in the article above, there are reportedly more former SAS working as mercenaries in Iraq than current SAS soldiers.
It's the outsourcing/privatization of our military. There is little oversight and since the companies are motivated by profit, you have a situation where human rights issues often arise.
There have already been many problems. On the human rights side you have dyncorp which, as I already mentioned, got involved in human trafficking. On the other end you have Halliburton, which we all know has a llloooonnnnnggggg history of corruption.
Originally posted by giant
There is little oversight and since the companies are motivated by profit, you have a situation where human rights issues often arise.
This may, in fact, be the point. The gloves may come all the way off here. Eventually the Black Flag is going to be raised by the west---the "insurgents" have already raised theirs.
America is not the military power it once was, it is pretty telling that it is stretched to the limit with the invasion of a small country. Hiring asymetric repsonses may be the whole point with these "security firms" it would allow countries not offically interested in helping out to get involved with the situation. I would imagine that we are trying to find the center of gravity of the insurgents in a multitude of ways---some of which undoubtably involve tactics and methods which are almost certainly unsavory.
Insisting this business stay squeaky clean is not realistic---we may have to use 7th century methods to fight 7th century thinking.
Right now there are more mercenaries in Iraq than British troops. This presents a problem since there is very little oversight. The mercenaries are fighting in our name but aren't under the same control. Not a good thing.
Originally posted by Moogs
Naples, you don't see any possibility of corruption because you don't want to see any. God forbid any Bush supporter actually admitting there is the possibility of bad decisions being made in Iraq... tantamount to treason!!
There is possibility for bad decisions to be made anywhere at anytime.
You however are jumping to conclusions long before the outcome of said decisions come to maturity. I have a problem with that.