I don't care if you hate gays/transgenders or not, that is your choice. But I must ask, what brought you to that point? What experence have you had which made you have such a negative opinion?
I once struggled with being prejudgist(sp?), I had a problem with women in a position of power, and over-weight people. This was brought on by experences in my early childhood. I grew up with just my Mom (and hated her every second of it) and I had a series of really bad teachers (all over-weight/female) who I also did not like. Thus giving me a predetermined idea of what all over-weight women in a position of power are going to be like. Now mind you, I was really young, and after I moved to Toronto I quickly changed. (my eyes opened, as they say.)
So, yah, what experence did you have?
At least someone that understands
but i prefer to explain what happened to me in a new thread...
Wow, the anonymity of the internet sometimes allows people to say some really not-cool things, doesn't it?
Neo: I'm intrigued by why you hate cross-dressers and transsexuals: what is it about you that makes someone else's expression of their individuality and identity threatening to you? You might as well go around beating up goths 'cos they dress funny. That's pretty infantile. It's not like men in skirts go around beating the shit out of kids, corrupting youth etc... even youth as bigoted as you.
johnq: Disease? I think you'll find that the GLBTI community is much more aware of STI issues than the ordinary community. Vast numbers of straight people don't even seem to realise that regardless of the threat of HIV/AIDS and Hep A/B (which I really doubt are seriously more prevalent in gay communities than straight ones anyway), there's still a lot of really nasty stuff to catch from having unsafe sex (mmm, chlamydia, gonorrhaea, syphilis, etc.). To be honest, if you're too stupid to have safe sex, you're asking for it, regardless of the gender/sexuality of the person you're sleeping with. And no, it's not that easy to get AIDS from saliva: this requires there to be lesions in the mouths of both people, because HIV is primarily transmitted through blood.
And on the issue of gender: why are so many people willing to accept that this person "lied" about her gender? You know, people don't get sex changes for the fun of it.
Wow, the anonymity of the internet sometimes allows people to say some really not-cool things, doesn't it?
What have I said that is uncool?
Quote:
Originally posted by staphbaby
johnq: Disease? I think you'll find that the GLBTI community is much more aware of STI issues than the ordinary community. Vast numbers of straight people don't even seem to realise that regardless of the threat of HIV/AIDS and Hep A/B (which I really doubt are seriously more prevalent in gay communities than straight ones anyway), there's still a lot of really nasty stuff to catch from having unsafe sex (mmm, chlamydia, gonorrhaea, syphilis, etc.). To be honest, if you're too stupid to have safe sex, you're asking for it, regardless of the gender/sexuality of the person you're sleeping with. And no, it's not that easy to get AIDS from saliva: this requires there to be lesions in the mouths of both people, because HIV is primarily transmitted through blood.
it is trivial to get Hepatitis via kissing.
No one is saying that heterosexuals can't get diseases too.
heterosexuals can get diseases too
heterosexuals can get diseases too
heterosexuals can get diseases too
heterosexuals can get diseases too
But there is clearly a higher prevalence in the GLBT... (sigh) GLBTI communities.
I don't particularly care if you "really doubt are seriously more prevalent in gay communities than straight ones anyway" the facts prove it.
Facing such realities is not admitting you are "sinners" or "evil" or "impure" or whatever.
You are so defensive you cannot take flat, deadpan, monotone statements of facts without superimposing some presumed agenda of accusations, denouncements or criticism of your sexual identity and all it entails.
I'm sorry if religious or intolerant people ABUSE facts to their advantage, but pretending FACTS are evil is stupid on your part. You just fall into your enemies' traps that way. Every dead GLBTI from AIDS/HIV/Hepatitis/etc is that many less advocates on your side, so I would think you'd want to do everything you can to eliminate the problem rather than having it morph into this victimhood/tragic martyrdom routine.
No one is accusing/comdeming you (I'm not anyway).
Quote:
Originally posted by staphbaby
And on the issue of gender: why are so many people willing to accept that this person "lied" about her gender? You know, people don't get sex changes for the fun of it.
Sorry, but no matter how supportive, inclusive, tolerant people are a transsexual will always be, to the common public (if they can detect it), what they were born as, first, and then whoever the person really wants to be identified as, second.
The vast majority will always never quite buy it. Again, I'm just stating the reality not saying that's how it ought to be.
You folks seemingly have a real problem with talking about the issues in a frank way. Any iota of disagreement instantly equals "right wing nut job homophobe gaybasher" or some such, right?
Yeah...ok.
One last thing: If a man identifies himself as a woman, gets a sex change and is flawless enough to pass as a woman, "she" still has -no right- to deceive a straight man and develop a relationship. Because someday he will want children and the truth will be known. (assuming "she" is saavy enough to get married in a state that doesn't have blood tests).
Such selfish deceit is utterly unforgivable. If it lead to violence it would be no surprise. Again, the onus to not lie to the straight is the first step the onus to not murder the trans in rage is on the straight. But don't for a second pretend that a trans getting into a relationship with an unwitting straight isn't a form of lying.
Now if a guy wants to marry a trans and he is aware of it, then great. I have no problems, people can love whomever they want.
Eddie was beaten to death after have relations with an unsuspecting partner.
I'm sorry, but that is not what is said in the article. They just found out some guy was cross-dressing and killed him. Now i don't believe in capital punishment, but the people who did this should be locked away for life.
On the other hand, and unrelated to this particular case, i could understand how one would beat up (not kill, mind you) a person who doesn't inform you about his/her real gender and takes advantage of your not-knowing.
Let's see how many times people report his post. Mods? What's the tally?
For what? I edited out my knee-jerk name-calling, even if it was true.
Seriously. It boggles my mind that people with this mentality can even still exist. S/he would actually consider killing someone?? Gay/trans/bi/whatever...if s/he doesn't agree with the lifestyle, fine. Don't look. Don't touch. Don't smell. Whatever.
But a slashed thoat and buried in a shallow grave is OK for the disingenuous faggot that turned me on.
Eddie was beaten to death after have relations with an unsuspecting partner. I think this is total BS. This is definitely a hate crime. The person was so homophobic they killed another person. Well that victim can look forward to more action when he's tossin salads in prison.
RIP Gwen
What is with hate crime, that designation is absurd, all violent crimes are rooted in hate, thus just because it is hetero on homo, white on black, or the other way around, it doesn?t matter, I understand this is a horrible crime, and this sicko should be dangling from the gallows but, why does the court system give an extra harsh sentence if the offender looks/sounds/lives differently than his victim?
How is the hate crime designation even constitutional? what about "...All men are created equal..."? based on that, who/what the victim was should not have bearing on the decision, the criminal should be punished for the act, not the target.
1. This is not the place to discuss the moderation of the forum.
2. Don't take the damn bait, people.
If this issue gets carried into future threads, then we will be forced to take action. In the meantime, it's in your hands. Everyone is responsible for moderating themselves, but expect differing opinions, even ones that are wildly different to yours. And, no, I'm not going to punish anyone else for retorts otherwise either unless they get VERY personally threatening.
Also, are we talking about transsexuals or transvestites? I get the feeling the two are being confused. It's like the difference between Quartz and Aqua. [/desperate attempt to add levity]
Merely because 1. my original response used it as a potential reason for becoming violent (again, not condoning it, just being realistic - which you can't seem to be). 2. as a reply to the statement that there isn't a higher rate of infection the the GLBT communities. It pertains to the story as potential reason for the outrage over the discovery, assuming they didn't know it was a man.
If you cannot see "cause" only "effect" or if you are not concerned with the "whys" of why violence happens, then enjoy being a perpetual victim for eternity, because you'll do nothing to help solve it. Hellllooooo...the onus to not murder is still on the angry straight guy nevertheless, mkay?
There is no "they had it coming" with murder. I said a fist-fight is the worst that (likely) ought to happen, if that. Why the pretending violence is alien internal to the gay/transgender community? There are fights all the time. Men are men no matter how much lipstick you have on. Hell, women fight too. Lying begets violence whatever the combination of race, sex, etc. (Dare I even say "beget" for fear of you pegging me as some religious fanatic?).
Sorry you are not capable of holding two mutually exclusive thoughts in your head, but 1. I said "sorry" right off the bat, 2. followed up by a RIP and 3. clearly said "But anyway" which indicates that I was not using that same tone for the rest of the post and 4. the bemused tone was targeted at the GUYS (IDIOTS/MURDERERS) THAT COULDN"T TELL SHE WAS A HE.
Maybe all caps will help you see that point. (Not yelling).
She was clearly a guy and thus the spit-take.
There was zero amusement at the violence.
That I am honest enough to say that if I was lied to or tricked by a man pretending to be a woman I'd fly off the handle makes me your little scapegoat?
So you think that by intimidating me into silence, making me not be honest, that that would make things better? Be happy that a straight guy is even talking about this. Most will shrug, snicker or lurk. I'm interested in causing at least one less death.
It takes 2 to tango and the transgendered community is well advised to come up with a self-imposed ban on lying and tricking straight men. it's patently obvious that it is a dangerous habit.
But hey, if you aren't honest enough to see that there are 2 parts to the problem (this isn't merely gay bashing - it's perhaps far more potentially deadly). Gay bashing, as repugnant and immoral as it is, is more clear cut - bullying. But a man fooled by a transsexual can turn far more deadly because it invades so deeply into the trust one person gives another person prior to intimacy. If that is broken in some kind of cruel game (ha ha stupid straights) it will be no wonder there is violence.
Can you not have a realistic reasonable augment? Why can I not say "straight men can get violent if duped into thinking you are a woman" without you getting all upset and accusing me of condoning that?
Understanding is not the same as condoning. You can understand things in the abstract with no strings attached, for the sake of argument.
And if something doesn't fit this case in particular, then it is a general statement.
I won't tip toe around semantically, caveat every little sentence. It's up to you to actually read without a jaundiced eye, not to presume, not to skim for keywords and make assumptions.
No. When someone gets murdered and you immediately go to "that's unforgivable, but..." it's uncool and bigoted.
Try this. A white guy finds a black man having sex with a white woman. He is filled with rage and disgust and kills the guy.
Not an unheard of scenario 40 or so years ago.
Now people of the time might well have started with "Well, we certainly don't
condone murder, mind you, but really, the emotions engendered by miscegenation are real and cannot be discounted. Plus, as we all know, black men murder each other all the time, and God only knows what diseases they might be carrying, so, really, even it's deplorable and all, it's not as simple as just saying murder is bad. There are reasons for things. People are driven to things."
There's just no reason to start talking about violence within the GLTB community, or some notion you have about incidence of disease, unless at some level you are justifying murder. These points are entirely irrelevant to the death of this boy, unless you imagine them to be extenuating circumstances. You can't have it both ways.
Saying you deplore the murder while you slander the victim is not an impressive feat of keeping several ideas in your head at once, it is morally incoherent (at best).
Wow. . . i'm amazed at the intolerance for intolerance here. It's really kind of bizarre.
It's also notable how a lot of folks here will deride a religious group that's totally harmless, just because of their opinions, and will defend the LGBT community, which is really just another gathering of opinions.
Alright Mr. Bitter. . . Did some Christian girl not put out for you on a date or something? All the Christians I know are harmless, unless you're counting the harm your ego felt that night.
Alright Mr. Bitter. . . Did some Christian girl not put out for you on a date or something? All the Christians I know are harmless, unless you're counting the harm your ego felt that night.
You're kidding, right? Everyone knows that the pastor's daughter is the easiest lay in town.
Comments
Originally posted by \\/\\/ickes
Neø,
I don't care if you hate gays/transgenders or not, that is your choice. But I must ask, what brought you to that point? What experence have you had which made you have such a negative opinion?
I once struggled with being prejudgist(sp?), I had a problem with women in a position of power, and over-weight people. This was brought on by experences in my early childhood. I grew up with just my Mom (and hated her every second of it) and I had a series of really bad teachers (all over-weight/female) who I also did not like. Thus giving me a predetermined idea of what all over-weight women in a position of power are going to be like. Now mind you, I was really young, and after I moved to Toronto I quickly changed. (my eyes opened, as they say.)
So, yah, what experence did you have?
At least someone that understands
but i prefer to explain what happened to me in a new thread...
-Neø
Neo: I'm intrigued by why you hate cross-dressers and transsexuals: what is it about you that makes someone else's expression of their individuality and identity threatening to you? You might as well go around beating up goths 'cos they dress funny. That's pretty infantile. It's not like men in skirts go around beating the shit out of kids, corrupting youth etc... even youth as bigoted as you.
johnq: Disease? I think you'll find that the GLBTI community is much more aware of STI issues than the ordinary community. Vast numbers of straight people don't even seem to realise that regardless of the threat of HIV/AIDS and Hep A/B (which I really doubt are seriously more prevalent in gay communities than straight ones anyway), there's still a lot of really nasty stuff to catch from having unsafe sex (mmm, chlamydia, gonorrhaea, syphilis, etc.). To be honest, if you're too stupid to have safe sex, you're asking for it, regardless of the gender/sexuality of the person you're sleeping with. And no, it's not that easy to get AIDS from saliva: this requires there to be lesions in the mouths of both people, because HIV is primarily transmitted through blood.
And on the issue of gender: why are so many people willing to accept that this person "lied" about her gender? You know, people don't get sex changes for the fun of it.
Originally posted by Neø
John,
unlike you, i'm a girl...not a guy...
Duly noted. I stand corrected.
Originally posted by staphbaby
Wow, the anonymity of the internet sometimes allows people to say some really not-cool things, doesn't it?
What have I said that is uncool?
Originally posted by staphbaby
johnq: Disease? I think you'll find that the GLBTI community is much more aware of STI issues than the ordinary community. Vast numbers of straight people don't even seem to realise that regardless of the threat of HIV/AIDS and Hep A/B (which I really doubt are seriously more prevalent in gay communities than straight ones anyway), there's still a lot of really nasty stuff to catch from having unsafe sex (mmm, chlamydia, gonorrhaea, syphilis, etc.). To be honest, if you're too stupid to have safe sex, you're asking for it, regardless of the gender/sexuality of the person you're sleeping with. And no, it's not that easy to get AIDS from saliva: this requires there to be lesions in the mouths of both people, because HIV is primarily transmitted through blood.
it is trivial to get Hepatitis via kissing.
No one is saying that heterosexuals can't get diseases too.
heterosexuals can get diseases too
heterosexuals can get diseases too
heterosexuals can get diseases too
heterosexuals can get diseases too
But there is clearly a higher prevalence in the GLBT... (sigh) GLBTI communities.
I don't particularly care if you "really doubt are seriously more prevalent in gay communities than straight ones anyway" the facts prove it.
Facing such realities is not admitting you are "sinners" or "evil" or "impure" or whatever.
You are so defensive you cannot take flat, deadpan, monotone statements of facts without superimposing some presumed agenda of accusations, denouncements or criticism of your sexual identity and all it entails.
I'm sorry if religious or intolerant people ABUSE facts to their advantage, but pretending FACTS are evil is stupid on your part. You just fall into your enemies' traps that way. Every dead GLBTI from AIDS/HIV/Hepatitis/etc is that many less advocates on your side, so I would think you'd want to do everything you can to eliminate the problem rather than having it morph into this victimhood/tragic martyrdom routine.
No one is accusing/comdeming you (I'm not anyway).
Originally posted by staphbaby
And on the issue of gender: why are so many people willing to accept that this person "lied" about her gender? You know, people don't get sex changes for the fun of it.
Sorry, but no matter how supportive, inclusive, tolerant people are a transsexual will always be, to the common public (if they can detect it), what they were born as, first, and then whoever the person really wants to be identified as, second.
The vast majority will always never quite buy it. Again, I'm just stating the reality not saying that's how it ought to be.
You folks seemingly have a real problem with talking about the issues in a frank way. Any iota of disagreement instantly equals "right wing nut job homophobe gaybasher" or some such, right?
Yeah...ok.
One last thing: If a man identifies himself as a woman, gets a sex change and is flawless enough to pass as a woman, "she" still has -no right- to deceive a straight man and develop a relationship. Because someday he will want children and the truth will be known. (assuming "she" is saavy enough to get married in a state that doesn't have blood tests).
Such selfish deceit is utterly unforgivable. If it lead to violence it would be no surprise. Again, the onus to not lie to the straight is the first step the onus to not murder the trans in rage is on the straight. But don't for a second pretend that a trans getting into a relationship with an unwitting straight isn't a form of lying.
Now if a guy wants to marry a trans and he is aware of it, then great. I have no problems, people can love whomever they want.
It's solely a matter of deceit - not gender.
Originally posted by hmurchison
http://www.blazepro.com/gwen/
Eddie was beaten to death after have relations with an unsuspecting partner.
I'm sorry, but that is not what is said in the article. They just found out some guy was cross-dressing and killed him. Now i don't believe in capital punishment, but the people who did this should be locked away for life.
On the other hand, and unrelated to this particular case, i could understand how one would beat up (not kill, mind you) a person who doesn't inform you about his/her real gender and takes advantage of your not-knowing.
Originally posted by Neø
unlike you, i'm a girl...not a guy...
Whatever, chick or not, you're an insecure and obnoxious waste of skin.
Congratulations on being the first person ever to be put on my 'ignore' list...and I'm not even gay.
[edit:] derogatory expletive deleted.
Originally posted by Neø
At least someone that understands
but i prefer to explain what happened to me in a new thread...
-Neø
so let's here it then
Originally posted by 709
Whatever, chick or not, you're an insecure and obnoxious waste of skin.
Congratulations on being the first person ever to be put on my 'ignore' list...and I'm not even gay.
[edit:] derogatory expletive deleted.
dude. according her profile she's only 13. chill out man
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Let's see how many times people report his post. Mods? What's the tally?
For what? I edited out my knee-jerk name-calling, even if it was true.
Seriously. It boggles my mind that people with this mentality can even still exist. S/he would actually consider killing someone?? Gay/trans/bi/whatever...if s/he doesn't agree with the lifestyle, fine. Don't look. Don't touch. Don't smell. Whatever.
But a slashed thoat and buried in a shallow grave is OK for the disingenuous faggot that turned me on.
Originally posted by burningwheel
dude. according her profile she's only 13. chill out man
Well shit. Who checks profiles?
It's still no excuse (if s/he's being genuine), but now I feel bad. A little.
if and when someone is 13, or doesn't agree with you, use it as a chance to dialogue.
but then again, knee jerk hate seems to be contagious.
Originally posted by hmurchison
http://www.blazepro.com/gwen/
Eddie was beaten to death after have relations with an unsuspecting partner. I think this is total BS. This is definitely a hate crime. The person was so homophobic they killed another person. Well that victim can look forward to more action when he's tossin salads in prison.
RIP Gwen
What is with hate crime, that designation is absurd, all violent crimes are rooted in hate, thus just because it is hetero on homo, white on black, or the other way around, it doesn?t matter, I understand this is a horrible crime, and this sicko should be dangling from the gallows but, why does the court system give an extra harsh sentence if the offender looks/sounds/lives differently than his victim?
How is the hate crime designation even constitutional? what about "...All men are created equal..."? based on that, who/what the victim was should not have bearing on the decision, the criminal should be punished for the act, not the target.
Originally posted by alcimedes
rather than whining, the ignore feature is much more useful than trying to censor those you disagree with.
if and when someone is 13, or doesn't agree with you, use it as a chance to dialogue.
but then again, knee jerk hate seems to be contagious.
I'm not getting what you're saying here, but yes, I agree s/he did goad me into posting something I wouldn't normally.
1. This is not the place to discuss the moderation of the forum.
2. Don't take the damn bait, people.
If this issue gets carried into future threads, then we will be forced to take action. In the meantime, it's in your hands. Everyone is responsible for moderating themselves, but expect differing opinions, even ones that are wildly different to yours. And, no, I'm not going to punish anyone else for retorts otherwise either unless they get VERY personally threatening.
Also, are we talking about transsexuals or transvestites? I get the feeling the two are being confused. It's like the difference between Quartz and Aqua.
Originally posted by johnq
Merely because 1. my original response used it as a potential reason for becoming violent (again, not condoning it, just being realistic - which you can't seem to be). 2. as a reply to the statement that there isn't a higher rate of infection the the GLBT communities. It pertains to the story as potential reason for the outrage over the discovery, assuming they didn't know it was a man.
If you cannot see "cause" only "effect" or if you are not concerned with the "whys" of why violence happens, then enjoy being a perpetual victim for eternity, because you'll do nothing to help solve it. Hellllooooo...the onus to not murder is still on the angry straight guy nevertheless, mkay?
There is no "they had it coming" with murder. I said a fist-fight is the worst that (likely) ought to happen, if that. Why the pretending violence is alien internal to the gay/transgender community? There are fights all the time. Men are men no matter how much lipstick you have on. Hell, women fight too. Lying begets violence whatever the combination of race, sex, etc. (Dare I even say "beget" for fear of you pegging me as some religious fanatic?).
Sorry you are not capable of holding two mutually exclusive thoughts in your head, but 1. I said "sorry" right off the bat, 2. followed up by a RIP and 3. clearly said "But anyway" which indicates that I was not using that same tone for the rest of the post and 4. the bemused tone was targeted at the GUYS (IDIOTS/MURDERERS) THAT COULDN"T TELL SHE WAS A HE.
Maybe all caps will help you see that point. (Not yelling).
She was clearly a guy and thus the spit-take.
There was zero amusement at the violence.
That I am honest enough to say that if I was lied to or tricked by a man pretending to be a woman I'd fly off the handle makes me your little scapegoat?
So you think that by intimidating me into silence, making me not be honest, that that would make things better? Be happy that a straight guy is even talking about this. Most will shrug, snicker or lurk. I'm interested in causing at least one less death.
It takes 2 to tango and the transgendered community is well advised to come up with a self-imposed ban on lying and tricking straight men. it's patently obvious that it is a dangerous habit.
But hey, if you aren't honest enough to see that there are 2 parts to the problem (this isn't merely gay bashing - it's perhaps far more potentially deadly). Gay bashing, as repugnant and immoral as it is, is more clear cut - bullying. But a man fooled by a transsexual can turn far more deadly because it invades so deeply into the trust one person gives another person prior to intimacy. If that is broken in some kind of cruel game (ha ha stupid straights) it will be no wonder there is violence.
Can you not have a realistic reasonable augment? Why can I not say "straight men can get violent if duped into thinking you are a woman" without you getting all upset and accusing me of condoning that?
Understanding is not the same as condoning. You can understand things in the abstract with no strings attached, for the sake of argument.
And if something doesn't fit this case in particular, then it is a general statement.
I won't tip toe around semantically, caveat every little sentence. It's up to you to actually read without a jaundiced eye, not to presume, not to skim for keywords and make assumptions.
No. When someone gets murdered and you immediately go to "that's unforgivable, but..." it's uncool and bigoted.
Try this. A white guy finds a black man having sex with a white woman. He is filled with rage and disgust and kills the guy.
Not an unheard of scenario 40 or so years ago.
Now people of the time might well have started with "Well, we certainly don't
condone murder, mind you, but really, the emotions engendered by miscegenation are real and cannot be discounted. Plus, as we all know, black men murder each other all the time, and God only knows what diseases they might be carrying, so, really, even it's deplorable and all, it's not as simple as just saying murder is bad. There are reasons for things. People are driven to things."
There's just no reason to start talking about violence within the GLTB community, or some notion you have about incidence of disease, unless at some level you are justifying murder. These points are entirely irrelevant to the death of this boy, unless you imagine them to be extenuating circumstances. You can't have it both ways.
Saying you deplore the murder while you slander the victim is not an impressive feat of keeping several ideas in your head at once, it is morally incoherent (at best).
It's also notable how a lot of folks here will deride a religious group that's totally harmless, just because of their opinions, and will defend the LGBT community, which is really just another gathering of opinions.
Oh well.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
...religious group that's totally harmless...
Oxymoron.
Originally posted by 709
Oxymoron.
Alright Mr. Bitter. . . Did some Christian girl not put out for you on a date or something? All the Christians I know are harmless, unless you're counting the harm your ego felt that night.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Alright Mr. Bitter. . . Did some Christian girl not put out for you on a date or something? All the Christians I know are harmless, unless you're counting the harm your ego felt that night.