They're not "just coffins", they're our brothers and sisters, fathers and mothers. I don't like there being a ban on showing images of our dead coming home.
the administration can spin this any way they want but it still comes down to the fact that they don't want the public to see the harsh reality of the situation in iraq. photos of dead soldiers bring that reality right to our living rooms. they fear that public opinion for the war will weaken if these kind of images are commonly displayed. some of the comparisons of vietnam are hard to shake.
Doesn't it have that surreal-industrial-unemotional atmosphere?
Like big manufacturing facility, first you see soldiers leaving to defend US interests, then you see pics of them fighting somewhere out in the desert, then you see coffins, perfectly wrapped in US flags, everything sooooo "clean and organized"..
That metal walls, lights, i don't know, to me it looks like assembly line,
it's the inside of a cargo plane; cold and functional
Yeah, i know that, but still there's no emotions... Look at the other pictures, especially one on which coffins are being unloaded from the plane, you can see 3 trucks waiting with soldiers standing beside them, again, no emotions, no movement...
perhaps I should rephrase that. I don't understand why they should be banned... they're as tasteful as could be expected, they only show scenes which could be characterised as respectful.
From the short quotes floating around from the army about distressing relatives and army policy, I expected much worse. I can't see how these photos would distress families any more than the fact of the death itself. Indeed, it might even be comforting to see them being given full military honours (although I doubt it).
To be honest, pictures of coffins don't make the suffering and death any more real to me than it already is: I have quite a vivid imagination (unfortunately).
Surely the kind of thing to really upset the American public would be footage of the kinds of atrocity that came out of Vietnam, more than this?
Well of course it's unemotional. It's the military. And I'm not sure what kind of emotions you want these people to break out into?
I have seen two people die some pretty horrific deaths right in front of me. The first was hit by a car running a red light going 75mph as I waited to make a left at the intersection, the second guy was riding a bike when a Ford F350 ran him over and stopped with the back tires on his abdomen and he laid there as me and two other guys watched him die.
Maybe I'm unemotional, I certainly don't think so, but I never broke down over the deaths of these two fellows. I didn't know either of them, save for the few fleeting moments as they died. I don't think that makes us somehow emotionally connected. Did I lose sleep? You bet I did. In the latter case I did so for a long time. But I don't think the crew of this cargo vessel actually witnessed the deaths in person. So I'm not concerned that they seem emotionally separated from the gravity of the situation. We don't ask undertakers and forensic pathologists to break down when they see some of the most horrific things imaginable.
The military is a machine, and things are done in a machine like manner. Perhaps it would be soothing to some to see soldiers being publicly torn apart by the deaths of their fellow patriots, but I would take no such pleasure from it.
As far as the photos being shown, there is no reason whatsoever to not allow the publication of these types of photos. Dead bodies? Off limits. Caskets with flags draped over them? Absolutely should be seen. This is a very anonymous way to show what sort of impact this war is having on the military, our nation, and our families. To disallow not only the publication but the actual taking of these types of photos is an outright misinformation campaign by the defense department.
I know what you mean piwozniak, and I agree with you. Cold and functional. Like an assembly line.
It strikes me as more of a "coping" mechanism than anything else. But it is taking a stiff upper lip to a bit of an extreme.
You can only imagine the comments which might come out if the coffins had been put on the plane in a more haphazard, less retentive manner...
Still, if you can believe the movies, the US Army takes brutalisation/dehumanisation training to an extreme not often seen in other modern armies. Any members of current armed forces want to comment on this?
It just strikes me as one something cold and automated.
You don't think that's partly because photos are inherently static? How do you really tell the emotions of a person from a photo taken from the kind of distance these were taken?
In other news, I can't believe that they not only sacked the person who took some of these photos, but also her husband, who, it seems, had nothing to do with it... now that's got to be a high water mark in labour relations.
I don't expect these guys to shed tears and start dropping on their knees screaming "Why oh why!?"...
It just strikes me as one something cold and automated.
Like you're watching huge machine operating...
[/URL]
they're being respectful. i suspect this is the way the military does it. it's their ritual, so to speak, well i can't think of the proper word right now.
Plus all that BS about not allowing these kind of pictures for "moral reasons" adds to that even more...
What if someone took pictures at the funeral for your son/daughter/wife/parents and then used them for political reasons?
-------------------
Anti-war zealots love these things. They are an emotional tool. Need a tool? Fine. But don't use the coffins of people who you wanted nothing to do with when they were alive.
It angers me that some people's first reaction upon seeing these photos is political capitalization.
What if someone took pictures at the funeral for your son/daughter/wife/parents and then used them for political reasons?
-------------------
Anti-war zealots love these things. They are an emotional tool. Need a tool? Fine. But don't use the coffins of people who you wanted nothing to do with when they were alive.
It angers me that some people's first reaction upon seeing these photos is political capitalization.
Oh, kind of like the political capitalization of the flag draped fireman being carried out of the WTC crater? Hmmm who would've used such an image in a political add? Oh, I know Bush.
Don't play the sanctimonious crap either. Many of us who are anti-Iraq war have served (I spent a year over there), have friends over there (My best friend is there now), have family over there (My brother-in-law is there). Showing the coffins shows the American people the horrors of war. It can turn the tide of acceptance for the war. Going to war should have been the last--Absolute LAST-- resort but it wasn't. Showing the coffins shows how stupid this war is.
Pictures of dead loved ones have been used just as long as the camera has existed in order to sway political opinions. The Amber alert system is in place because the parents of that poor girl showed her picture to congress. If showing horrific pictures is need to prevent further tragedy then so be it. I'm sure many mothers/fathers would rather show the pictures of the coffins in order to prevent further families from the same suffering.
Jub are you a Bushie? He flies these things in at night and doesn't let pictures out. THAT is political. He's the creep. We have plenty of pictures of him on an aircraft carrier after we "won" though.
Comments
Not sure what people are getting excited about - they're just coffins...
Originally posted by staphbaby
Not sure what people are getting excited about - they're just coffins...
WTF? You think they're empty or something?
Doesn't it have that surreal-industrial-unemotional atmosphere?
Like big manufacturing facility, first you see soldiers leaving to defend US interests, then you see pics of them fighting somewhere out in the desert, then you see coffins, perfectly wrapped in US flags, everything sooooo "clean and organized"..
That metal walls, lights, i don't know, to me it looks like assembly line,
1. salute
2. "neeeeeext.".
Originally posted by Defiant
it's the inside of a cargo plane; cold and functional
Yeah, i know that, but still there's no emotions... Look at the other pictures, especially one on which coffins are being unloaded from the plane, you can see 3 trucks waiting with soldiers standing beside them, again, no emotions, no movement...
Or the one where coffins are stored...
Originally posted by 709
WTF? You think they're empty or something?
perhaps I should rephrase that. I don't understand why they should be banned... they're as tasteful as could be expected, they only show scenes which could be characterised as respectful.
From the short quotes floating around from the army about distressing relatives and army policy, I expected much worse. I can't see how these photos would distress families any more than the fact of the death itself. Indeed, it might even be comforting to see them being given full military honours (although I doubt it).
To be honest, pictures of coffins don't make the suffering and death any more real to me than it already is: I have quite a vivid imagination (unfortunately).
Surely the kind of thing to really upset the American public would be footage of the kinds of atrocity that came out of Vietnam, more than this?
I have seen two people die some pretty horrific deaths right in front of me. The first was hit by a car running a red light going 75mph as I waited to make a left at the intersection, the second guy was riding a bike when a Ford F350 ran him over and stopped with the back tires on his abdomen and he laid there as me and two other guys watched him die.
Maybe I'm unemotional, I certainly don't think so, but I never broke down over the deaths of these two fellows. I didn't know either of them, save for the few fleeting moments as they died. I don't think that makes us somehow emotionally connected. Did I lose sleep? You bet I did. In the latter case I did so for a long time. But I don't think the crew of this cargo vessel actually witnessed the deaths in person. So I'm not concerned that they seem emotionally separated from the gravity of the situation. We don't ask undertakers and forensic pathologists to break down when they see some of the most horrific things imaginable.
The military is a machine, and things are done in a machine like manner. Perhaps it would be soothing to some to see soldiers being publicly torn apart by the deaths of their fellow patriots, but I would take no such pleasure from it.
As far as the photos being shown, there is no reason whatsoever to not allow the publication of these types of photos. Dead bodies? Off limits. Caskets with flags draped over them? Absolutely should be seen. This is a very anonymous way to show what sort of impact this war is having on the military, our nation, and our families. To disallow not only the publication but the actual taking of these types of photos is an outright misinformation campaign by the defense department.
Originally posted by Defiant
I know what you mean piwozniak, and I agree with you.
It strikes me as more of a "coping" mechanism than anything else. But it is taking a stiff upper lip to a bit of an extreme.
You can only imagine the comments which might come out if the coffins had been put on the plane in a more haphazard, less retentive manner...
Still, if you can believe the movies, the US Army takes brutalisation/dehumanisation training to an extreme not often seen in other modern armies. Any members of current armed forces want to comment on this?
I don't know how to explain it...
I don't expect these guys to shed tears and start dropping on their knees screaming "Why oh why!?"...
It just strikes me as one something cold and automated.
Like you're watching huge machine operating...
Same kind of feeling portrayed in this video:
(PJ, do the evolution)
link
Plus all that BS about not allowing these kind of pictures for "moral reasons" adds to that even more...
Originally posted by piwozniak
It just strikes me as one something cold and automated.
You don't think that's partly because photos are inherently static? How do you really tell the emotions of a person from a photo taken from the kind of distance these were taken?
In other news, I can't believe that they not only sacked the person who took some of these photos, but also her husband, who, it seems, had nothing to do with it... now that's got to be a high water mark in labour relations.
Originally posted by piwozniak
[B]
I don't expect these guys to shed tears and start dropping on their knees screaming "Why oh why!?"...
It just strikes me as one something cold and automated.
Like you're watching huge machine operating...
[/URL]
they're being respectful. i suspect this is the way the military does it. it's their ritual, so to speak, well i can't think of the proper word right now.
Hey, i just found out these ,take a look...
Originally posted by piwozniak
I'm not saying they are being disrespectful, they follow military protocol. It just strikes me as cold. That's it.
Hey, i just found out these ,take a look...
Crikey, there's a bit more pathos there, isn't there. Including from the military types.
Originally posted by piwozniak
Plus all that BS about not allowing these kind of pictures for "moral reasons" adds to that even more...
What if someone took pictures at the funeral for your son/daughter/wife/parents and then used them for political reasons?
-------------------
Anti-war zealots love these things. They are an emotional tool. Need a tool? Fine. But don't use the coffins of people who you wanted nothing to do with when they were alive.
It angers me that some people's first reaction upon seeing these photos is political capitalization.
Originally posted by Jubelum
What if someone took pictures at the funeral for your son/daughter/wife/parents and then used them for political reasons?
-------------------
Anti-war zealots love these things. They are an emotional tool. Need a tool? Fine. But don't use the coffins of people who you wanted nothing to do with when they were alive.
It angers me that some people's first reaction upon seeing these photos is political capitalization.
Oh, kind of like the political capitalization of the flag draped fireman being carried out of the WTC crater? Hmmm who would've used such an image in a political add? Oh, I know Bush.
Don't play the sanctimonious crap either. Many of us who are anti-Iraq war have served (I spent a year over there), have friends over there (My best friend is there now), have family over there (My brother-in-law is there). Showing the coffins shows the American people the horrors of war. It can turn the tide of acceptance for the war. Going to war should have been the last--Absolute LAST-- resort but it wasn't. Showing the coffins shows how stupid this war is.
Pictures of dead loved ones have been used just as long as the camera has existed in order to sway political opinions. The Amber alert system is in place because the parents of that poor girl showed her picture to congress. If showing horrific pictures is need to prevent further tragedy then so be it. I'm sure many mothers/fathers would rather show the pictures of the coffins in order to prevent further families from the same suffering.