Why is it that when people start talking about how great the iMac is, they bring up mom, and grandma, and little kids, and people who don't know anything about computers. There's an attractive prospect for a person shopping for a computer in the iMac's price range. There aren't enough grandmas to justify the iMac. It has to become a serious computer or it will remain an expensive toy to the masses. I for one think the computer has potential. But Apple seems bent on leaving it short of that potential. If they do not change the iMac paradigm, then it will do Apple more harm than good. It will only be attractive once a year the moment after they refresh it.
Why is it whenever anyone mentions their experiences with AIO some asswipe has to post a smartass rhetorical question...
And, for the record, unless iMac's start randomly exploding and maiming their users, they do no harm to Apple. Apple's line is differentiated enough that one semi-dud product won't sink them.
It's all about what the user wants out of the computing experience, and complain all you want about non-pros using computers, they are customers too and they have specific computing needs that probably don't involve gaming, multimedia design, audio editing, video rendering, and any mid-high end ap stuff. But then, that was in my post and you didn't read that far.
Why is it that when people start talking about how great the iMac is, they bring up mom, and grandma, and little kids, and people who don't know anything about computers. There's an attractive prospect for a person shopping for a computer in the iMac's price range. There aren't enough grandmas to justify the iMac. It has to become a serious computer or it will remain an expensive toy to the masses. I for one think the computer has potential. But Apple seems bent on leaving it short of that potential. If they do not change the iMac paradigm, then it will do Apple more harm than good. It will only be attractive once a year the moment after they refresh it.
Since when has the iMac ever been a "serious" computer? When it came out the G3 desktop and tower were the serious computers. The only thing was that the iMac could just about match the G3 in performance. The iMac has always been about the computer for the "the rest of us" crowd (which doesn't mean the rest of us in this forum).
There are plenty of grandmas, students, parents, regular joe's, and computer neophytes to keep the iMac going. The computer that people here want is not an iMac.
The major issue with the iMac is price. It has been since the G4 iMac debuted. The old iMac was a great deal; the new one... not so much. I personally think it has a lot more to do with the case than the LCD (just a guess though, don't have any data). The LCD should raise the price a little over a CRT, but not by as much as the difference between the iMac and eMac. The iMac case and arm look real difficult to make. I've taken one apart and it's built more like a portable than a desktop. I don't know if it's possible, but if Apple can re-engineer the case to be cheaper then I'm sure they will gladly lower the price.
It's like the iPod in a way. Steve said that they would love to make a $100 iPod, if they could. I'm sure they'd love to make a sub $1000 iMac again, if they can.
In lieu of the recent eMac update, it has become apparent to me that the all in one iMac form factor is a fading memory. The iMac of yesterday was a gorgeous all in one bubble shaped, cuddly computer with an attractive price point and great features for any needy consumer. The iMac of today is sort of like a small house on an expensive property, not really worth it if you dont just looove the view (or something like that).
The eMac is the only all-in-one desktop that Apple will be selling in the future. The reason I believe this is simply because it has a price that has room to move lower, where the iMac will only get higher in price as it gets newer LCD's and compnents like the G5 and such.
For cost effectiveness and possibly even wiping out AIO desktops altogether, Apple might as well do a Cube type computer again. Hell, any sort of desktop that does not carry an outrageously high price point and has the ability to be basically expanded would foot the bill. I fear that Apple sometimes gets extremely ambitious with its industrial design, while this is good most of the time, this methodology leads to revenue problems because high end products dont always sell as well as many would think. For example, my dad was shocked when I told him the iMac has not been selling well, he thought that by its looks alone it has been selling, but more and more people are looking beyond ergonomic solutions (actually most people have always looked at just the technical side of things).
A G5 tower, exactly the same PowerMac G5 that is being sold, would do the trick. Once the new PM's are upgraded at WWDC, why not drop the iMac line as we know it and rename the low end PowerMac the iMac G5? Apple doesnt have to reinvent the wheel, they just need to get an affordable and "consumer desired" computer on the shelves. Just because Steve wants to move his screen around with the touch of a finger, doesnt mean everyone wants or even cares about that. Selling a standard does indeed become arrogant at the point where it is just not bringing in enough money and not enough units are being moved. Just make a Mac that appeals to everyone and is in reach of many, just like the original iMac!
The magic of the original iMac was not its AIO form, it was that it delivered what people wanted at a reasonable price, and in a compelling overall package. I want to see something similar happen again, but updated to the needs and desires of today's consumer.
Your just plain wrong.
the new LCD imac is the best computer product apple has ever made.....period.
Uhm, I may be a bit off in my hypothesis but I do not think the last post is on the spot. Apple must do something to reinvigorate the iMac line-something besides a spec bumping.
A drastic spec bump and price drop may actually be the only thing needed to make units fly off the shelves. However, many people think prices can only go lower with a less costly form factor.
the new LCD imac is the best computer product apple has ever made.....period.
apple is NOT about price/performance.
dont you people get it?
Try telling that to the everyday consumer. They will not buy a computer if they can turn around the corner and buy one that is faster or as fast for 800 dollars cheaper. Why 800?
1794 (new 17" iMac) - 994 (new 17" emac w/ superdrive).
Personally, I'm getting so tired of waiting for new g5s that I'm about ready to buy an eMac to develop on. I think they are great computers. I would NEVER in a million years consider buying an iMac the way they are. Even though I really want to use an lcd I feel the current iMac is WAY overpriced.
You can't convince all consumers to buy a product for more money when the performance isn't there. They will most likely laugh at you.
The iMac needs to be changed, badly. I really think they should drop the 20" iMac because that price looks bad on that line. Even 1794 for a 17" is TOO MUCH. Especially if you take away the 17" monitor (apple sells the same monitor for $559.00 to developers. Take away that and there is a $1200 dollar computer sitting underneath it!!
Of course that includes profit. But even if you take away about 150-200 of profit, you have $1000 dollar computer. How can the iMac be worth that much? I might be going down the wrong path... but I Thought it was interesting.
I believe the problems IBM had with the 970FX fab is the only reason why Apple has not already released the next generation iMac. When the 90 nm G5 chips are in sufficient supply you will see a 2 step release: first with be a speed bump in the PM range and then the G5 iMac - hopefully in an AIO form factor. If it isn't AIO then I'm going to grab 2 20" iMacs from the clearance store.
Why AIO? I'm bloody tired of cases & cables. Been there & done that. If I wanted to get into the box & play techie I would get a PM. I simply want my computers to work and the only thing I will agree to do is add memory.
For those that believe that AIO design is a POS please remember that laptops are also AIO.
The AIO is a great design for homes where the owners don't want the area around the computer to look like a computer repair shop. It's great for those that live in smaller places where space is at a premium. It's also fantastic for those that appreciate the elegant designs that come from Apple.
I'm a switcher that got my first Mac (a 667 15" PB) 2 years ago, and just replaced it with a fully loaded 15"PB. Next Macs will be iMacs for the office and home.
By the way, I'm a grandpa - with number 2 due any day. I'm old enough to remember when the Mac was announced and when IBM announced the PC. I'm not really brain dead - I own my own company, travel around 100,000 miles a year on business, and do all admin work, including accounting, on my computers. I would have purchased the 2 iMacs in January, but felt that Apple would introduce the next generation as soon as sufficient 90 nm chips were available and that it would be worth the wait. Unfortunately IBM's fab problems have delayed any announcement, but it's coming and hopefully will be another AIO that takes significant design leap like the current design did.
I agree. There's a place for the whizbang Tower crammed full of hardware but there is also a place for a nice low clutter system that is capable. The eMac isn't that bad of a computer. Hell I still have 601 based macs at home an eMac is like a starship compared to them.
I just want Apple to increase the value proposition. Sadly it really isn't Apple. The price of digital LCDs have simply not come down enough. Apple prematurely announced the CRT is dead probably hoping that by circa 2004 the LCD prices would be lower. The iMac is hampered by this.
Quote:
By the way, I'm a grandpa - with number 2 due any day. I'm old enough to remember when the Mac was announced and when IBM announced the PC. I'm not really brain dead - I own my own company, travel around 100,000 miles a year on business, and do all admin work, including accounting, on my computers.
Well congrats on the new grandbaby coming. You are exactly the customer Apple needs to highlight. People doing good things their way with Apple tools that allow them to handle things that would normally require another staff person.
Apple doesn't have to win in price/performance, but they do have to be in the same ballpark. Lots of people will pay a 25% premium for the Mac user experience, but very few will pay double the price for half the performance, which is the situation with iMacs today.
Apple doesn't have to win in price/performance, but they do have to be in the same ballpark. Lots of people will pay a 25% premium for the Mac user experience, but very few will pay double the price for half the performance, which is the situation with iMacs today.
This is right on the money. Every AI member should just read this post over and over until it finally sinks in. I'm looking at you, geekmeet
This is right on the money. Every AI member should just read this post over and over until it finally sinks in. I'm looking at you, geekmeet
You're right... and ok, geekmeet might be a little off by saying so emphatically that Apple isn't about price / performance, but to bring this back to the original topic...
Just because the iMac offers poor price / performance right now doesn't mean the the answer is to get rid of the iMac. That's just a ridiculous extrapolation. It's also pretty irrelevant to talk about how the AIO form factor doesn't fit the needs of some AI'ers. Most AI members would be better classified as enthusiasts or pro-sumer.
The iMac is an AIO and always will be. The iMac is targeted at people who want the best ease of use. Obviously ease of use has a different value to different people, just like performance has a different value. Apparently a couple hundred thousand people per quarter think that the value of the iMac is work the price. There are certainly many, many who do not.
The way I see it, this reoccurring topic is mixing two separate issues:
1) Is the iMac worth it's price? If not, what should be done about it? Making it cheaper and increasing the value (performance, ease-of-use) are the obvious steps.
2) What kind of computer does the enthusiast / pro-sumer want? Does Apple make such a thing? Are they close? Have they ever been? How much should it cost?
What people usually describe is something very close to the Cube. They don't describe it that way though. They'd rather try to turn the iMac into something it isn't. Why? I don't know. Maybe they're getting too caught up in the Cube's initial high price and subsequent failure. I think they should first ask what features / form factor they want, and then say how much they'll pay for it.
Looking at it that way, to me at least, it seems like people want a modern Cube that costs less. I would love it if these threads were named "Bring back the Cube", but oh well.
S
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What people usually describe is something very close to the Cube.
There is also one variant of this discussed before on these boards. I talk about the famous pizza boxes, iBook or Powerbook corpses without the head . Perhaps a little thicker to accomodate more powerful components. And perhaps with the keyboard in place (that is like a notebook), just to make user's life more easy.
There is also one variant of this discussed before on these boards. I talk about the famous pizza boxes, iBook or Powerbook corpses without the head . Perhaps a little thicker to accomodate more powerful components. And perhaps with the keyboard in place (that is like a notebook), just to make user's life more easy.
There has been a lot of comments about price/performance. It's easy to forget that Apple was depending on Moto to improve this. Think about the next generation potential:
90 nm G5 - 2.0/2.2/2.4
FSB that compares to the G5 PM
Easter memory, maybe close to the PM's, depending on costs.
All the other little bits, like a faster HD used in the G5 PMs
There have been too many comments in the past about the G5 being cheaper than the G4 to believe that the next iMac will not be a G5.
It's important to understand that Apple has some very bright guys in the design AND engineering areas. Their potential to evolve the AIO iMac to something that will blow our minds is definitely there. The DESIRE is also there, especially with the penetration the iPod has made into the Windows market. Finally, the upgrade of the eMac has pushed the iMac performance target to a very high level. I believe that the eMac upgrade was initially intended for after the introduction of the next iMac, but IBM's fab problems caused them to go ahead and announce it before the iMac. I therefore believe that the performance difference between the eMac and next generation iMac will be very much in line with the pricing difference.
Actually, one last thought - while I have long considered that Apple will move to the iMac being the single processor G5 and the PM being the dual option I now believe that the iMac will be the high performance single chip (along with the G5 PB) and Apple will migrate the low end (iBook & eMac) to G5's as chip availability is increased and speed has broken the 3 gig barrier - probably about 6 months after deliveries start on the 3 gig G5 PMs.
Why is it whenever anyone mentions their experiences with AIO some asswipe has to post a smartass rhetorical question...
And, for the record, unless iMac's start randomly exploding and maiming their users, they do no harm to Apple. Apple's line is differentiated enough that one semi-dud product won't sink them.
It's all about what the user wants out of the computing experience, and complain all you want about non-pros using computers, they are customers too and they have specific computing needs that probably don't involve gaming, multimedia design, audio editing, video rendering, and any mid-high end ap stuff. But then, that was in my post and you didn't read that far.
You misread. I wasn't saying nasty things about your mother so back off. In you're defense of the product, you called it a semi-dud. That hurts Apple! The iMac is their flagship product. It is iconic. It cannot afford to be any kind of a dud. Think about it. It cannot have mass switcher appeal if people only see it as a kids computer. Apple's flagship product should not be looked down on. That is especially true at the price they sell it for.
Is it the product for the rest of us? If the AI people don't much respect it, and the other 98% don't want it, then who are "the rest of us" this product is meant for? This should not be news. The average consumer values either power or low price. They would prefer both. But they will take one or the other. If the product is perceived to have neither, then it will not sell to "the rest of us". All I am saying is that Apple has got to be willing to give the iMac one or the other for it to get out of the small niche it occupies.
I think the AIO has great switcher appeal. The problem, as stated many, many times here before, is that a switcher looks at his/her $700 Dell and says, why should I spend $600 more for an iMac? And to that end, I can see their point.
If you asked them a year later, when they weren't being bombarded with Winblows critical updates and spyware updates and basically plug their cameras/camcorders into their iMacs and edit their photos/movies and easily burn them onto DVDs/slideshows, they really wouldn't think much about the price/performance issue. Let's face it, the majority of people buy new computers for the "bang" factor, but never use it to it's full extent. Hell, who does? Point being, and Apple has been about this since day one, a computer should make things easier. I bet the majority of people out there would agree that if a computer could make things much easier, do things in a more productive manner, and still have a decent lifespan, they would buy any kind of computer, beit a Dell, HP, IBM or a Mac. Consumers really don't think it through though - they see the almighty $$$ and say that Macs are overpriced.
I pissed away too much of my life dealing with Wintel idiocy and have given up on that realm. I'd much rather do things simple and in a productive manner, rather than deal with the hodgepodge of crap that is Wintel. Never again!
More to the point, Apple needs to figure out a way to convince people of that. If they want a boatload more sales numbers, the low-cost iMac did it for them. Fine. Give people a low-cost Mac again. Like I said, I have come to this realization. Most consumers have not and will deal with the BS that is Windows.
You misread. I wasn't saying nasty things about your mother so back off. In you're defense of the product, you called it a semi-dud. That hurts Apple! The iMac is their flagship product. It is iconic. It cannot afford to be any kind of a dud. Think about it. It cannot have mass switcher appeal if people only see it as a kids computer. Apple's flagship product should not be looked down on. That is especially true at the price they sell it for.
Is it the product for the rest of us? If the AI people don't much respect it, and the other 98% don't want it, then who are "the rest of us" this product is meant for? This should not be news. The average consumer values either power or low price. They would prefer both. But they will take one or the other. If the product is perceived to have neither, then it will not sell to "the rest of us". All I am saying is that Apple has got to be willing to give the iMac one or the other for it to get out of the small niche it occupies.
Peace.
Fine. I retract my "asswipe" comment, but that's all. The iMac isn't the flagship anymore, the iBook and Powerbook seem to be leading the flotilla at present. I'd like to see them drop the price too, but if they don't they don't and no amount of armchair Apple-running is gonna change it.
Will they update them for the WWDC? I don't know. Why? What are they going to be used for? Is Pixar going to render Nemo 2 on them? I doubt it. It's a consumer machine. Yeah, it's more expensive than a Dell, and a BMW is more expensive than a Chevy. BMW for what it's worth doesn't scale up or reduce the prices of their 325 line because people aren't buying them in droves. They know t here is still and audence for them, and for the cheapskates and non-boutique folks they release a mini for almost half the cost. There's no shame in it, I like the mini. Sure it's more expensive than a comparably sized and equipped Toyota, but it's got a cool factor to it.
That's the eMac.
and yeah, one semi-dud isn't going to kill them. The cube didn't kill them. The flaming Powerbooks (5400s?) didn't kill them. 1st Gen G4 towers didn't kill them. iBook system board malfunctions didn't kill them. Spotty screened Powerbooks didn't kill them. Inability to meet G5 orders for MONTHS didn't kill them. Underperforming iMacs won't kill them either.
and yeah, one semi-dud isn't going to kill them. The cube didn't kill them. The flaming Powerbooks (5400s?) didn't kill them. 1st Gen G4 towers didn't kill them. iBook system board malfunctions didn't kill them. Spotty screened Powerbooks didn't kill them. Inability to meet G5 orders for MONTHS didn't kill them. Underperforming iMacs won't kill them either. [/B]
I only disagree about one thing. The iMac is the flagship product. It is the iconic Mac. Often, it is the only Mac people know about, at least by name. They may still think it comes with a CRT, but they know about it. It is the first thing that catches the attention at an Apple store. It simply cannot afford to be lackluster. And for the record, I never said the iMac would kill Apple. I said it would hurt them if they didn't correct it or kill it. All the examples you gave hurt Apple to some extent. The iMac is doing the same. The difference is that Apple quickly took measures to correct those problems. The iMac has had problems almost from day one and Apple has not been so energetic about addressing it. The length of time they have lived with the problem bothers me more than the problem itself. Make no mistake about it. It does hurt Apple. But of course, it won't kill them.
What's wrong with Apple computers being "expensive toys" ???
If you want a basic, cheap computer that does what it's supposed to do ... then go to dell.com
If you want an expensive toy that does all that computer stuff very elegantly, then go to store.apple.com
Almost every industry is like this .. there are Mercedes vs Chevys... there is Continental Airlines vs JetBlue Airlines... there's a Maytag Freezer or a SubZero made of stainless steel. ...
Personally, I like the Apple computers, the Mercedes (well, I'd rather drive a BMW), the Continental BusinessFirst seats ... etc.
Comments
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
Why is it that when people start talking about how great the iMac is, they bring up mom, and grandma, and little kids, and people who don't know anything about computers. There's an attractive prospect for a person shopping for a computer in the iMac's price range. There aren't enough grandmas to justify the iMac. It has to become a serious computer or it will remain an expensive toy to the masses. I for one think the computer has potential. But Apple seems bent on leaving it short of that potential. If they do not change the iMac paradigm, then it will do Apple more harm than good. It will only be attractive once a year the moment after they refresh it.
Why is it whenever anyone mentions their experiences with AIO some asswipe has to post a smartass rhetorical question...
And, for the record, unless iMac's start randomly exploding and maiming their users, they do no harm to Apple. Apple's line is differentiated enough that one semi-dud product won't sink them.
It's all about what the user wants out of the computing experience, and complain all you want about non-pros using computers, they are customers too and they have specific computing needs that probably don't involve gaming, multimedia design, audio editing, video rendering, and any mid-high end ap stuff. But then, that was in my post and you didn't read that far.
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
Why is it that when people start talking about how great the iMac is, they bring up mom, and grandma, and little kids, and people who don't know anything about computers. There's an attractive prospect for a person shopping for a computer in the iMac's price range. There aren't enough grandmas to justify the iMac. It has to become a serious computer or it will remain an expensive toy to the masses. I for one think the computer has potential. But Apple seems bent on leaving it short of that potential. If they do not change the iMac paradigm, then it will do Apple more harm than good. It will only be attractive once a year the moment after they refresh it.
Since when has the iMac ever been a "serious" computer? When it came out the G3 desktop and tower were the serious computers. The only thing was that the iMac could just about match the G3 in performance. The iMac has always been about the computer for the "the rest of us" crowd (which doesn't mean the rest of us in this forum).
There are plenty of grandmas, students, parents, regular joe's, and computer neophytes to keep the iMac going. The computer that people here want is not an iMac.
The major issue with the iMac is price. It has been since the G4 iMac debuted. The old iMac was a great deal; the new one... not so much. I personally think it has a lot more to do with the case than the LCD (just a guess though, don't have any data). The LCD should raise the price a little over a CRT, but not by as much as the difference between the iMac and eMac. The iMac case and arm look real difficult to make. I've taken one apart and it's built more like a portable than a desktop. I don't know if it's possible, but if Apple can re-engineer the case to be cheaper then I'm sure they will gladly lower the price.
It's like the iPod in a way. Steve said that they would love to make a $100 iPod, if they could. I'm sure they'd love to make a sub $1000 iMac again, if they can.
Originally posted by Messiahtosh
In lieu of the recent eMac update, it has become apparent to me that the all in one iMac form factor is a fading memory. The iMac of yesterday was a gorgeous all in one bubble shaped, cuddly computer with an attractive price point and great features for any needy consumer. The iMac of today is sort of like a small house on an expensive property, not really worth it if you dont just looove the view (or something like that).
The eMac is the only all-in-one desktop that Apple will be selling in the future. The reason I believe this is simply because it has a price that has room to move lower, where the iMac will only get higher in price as it gets newer LCD's and compnents like the G5 and such.
For cost effectiveness and possibly even wiping out AIO desktops altogether, Apple might as well do a Cube type computer again. Hell, any sort of desktop that does not carry an outrageously high price point and has the ability to be basically expanded would foot the bill. I fear that Apple sometimes gets extremely ambitious with its industrial design, while this is good most of the time, this methodology leads to revenue problems because high end products dont always sell as well as many would think. For example, my dad was shocked when I told him the iMac has not been selling well, he thought that by its looks alone it has been selling, but more and more people are looking beyond ergonomic solutions (actually most people have always looked at just the technical side of things).
A G5 tower, exactly the same PowerMac G5 that is being sold, would do the trick. Once the new PM's are upgraded at WWDC, why not drop the iMac line as we know it and rename the low end PowerMac the iMac G5? Apple doesnt have to reinvent the wheel, they just need to get an affordable and "consumer desired" computer on the shelves. Just because Steve wants to move his screen around with the touch of a finger, doesnt mean everyone wants or even cares about that. Selling a standard does indeed become arrogant at the point where it is just not bringing in enough money and not enough units are being moved. Just make a Mac that appeals to everyone and is in reach of many, just like the original iMac!
The magic of the original iMac was not its AIO form, it was that it delivered what people wanted at a reasonable price, and in a compelling overall package. I want to see something similar happen again, but updated to the needs and desires of today's consumer.
Your just plain wrong.
the new LCD imac is the best computer product apple has ever made.....period.
apple is NOT about price/performance.
dont you people get it?
A drastic spec bump and price drop may actually be the only thing needed to make units fly off the shelves. However, many people think prices can only go lower with a less costly form factor.
There, is that more reasonable thinking?
Originally posted by geekmeet
Your just plain wrong.
the new LCD imac is the best computer product apple has ever made.....period.
apple is NOT about price/performance.
dont you people get it?
Try telling that to the everyday consumer. They will not buy a computer if they can turn around the corner and buy one that is faster or as fast for 800 dollars cheaper. Why 800?
1794 (new 17" iMac) - 994 (new 17" emac w/ superdrive).
Personally, I'm getting so tired of waiting for new g5s that I'm about ready to buy an eMac to develop on. I think they are great computers. I would NEVER in a million years consider buying an iMac the way they are. Even though I really want to use an lcd I feel the current iMac is WAY overpriced.
You can't convince all consumers to buy a product for more money when the performance isn't there. They will most likely laugh at you.
The iMac needs to be changed, badly. I really think they should drop the 20" iMac because that price looks bad on that line. Even 1794 for a 17" is TOO MUCH. Especially if you take away the 17" monitor (apple sells the same monitor for $559.00 to developers. Take away that and there is a $1200 dollar computer sitting underneath it!!
Of course that includes profit. But even if you take away about 150-200 of profit, you have $1000 dollar computer. How can the iMac be worth that much? I might be going down the wrong path... but I Thought it was interesting.
Why AIO? I'm bloody tired of cases & cables. Been there & done that. If I wanted to get into the box & play techie I would get a PM. I simply want my computers to work and the only thing I will agree to do is add memory.
For those that believe that AIO design is a POS please remember that laptops are also AIO.
The AIO is a great design for homes where the owners don't want the area around the computer to look like a computer repair shop. It's great for those that live in smaller places where space is at a premium. It's also fantastic for those that appreciate the elegant designs that come from Apple.
I'm a switcher that got my first Mac (a 667 15" PB) 2 years ago, and just replaced it with a fully loaded 15"PB. Next Macs will be iMacs for the office and home.
By the way, I'm a grandpa - with number 2 due any day. I'm old enough to remember when the Mac was announced and when IBM announced the PC. I'm not really brain dead - I own my own company, travel around 100,000 miles a year on business, and do all admin work, including accounting, on my computers. I would have purchased the 2 iMacs in January, but felt that Apple would introduce the next generation as soon as sufficient 90 nm chips were available and that it would be worth the wait. Unfortunately IBM's fab problems have delayed any announcement, but it's coming and hopefully will be another AIO that takes significant design leap like the current design did.
I agree. There's a place for the whizbang Tower crammed full of hardware but there is also a place for a nice low clutter system that is capable. The eMac isn't that bad of a computer. Hell I still have 601 based macs at home an eMac is like a starship compared to them.
I just want Apple to increase the value proposition. Sadly it really isn't Apple. The price of digital LCDs have simply not come down enough. Apple prematurely announced the CRT is dead probably hoping that by circa 2004 the LCD prices would be lower. The iMac is hampered by this.
By the way, I'm a grandpa - with number 2 due any day. I'm old enough to remember when the Mac was announced and when IBM announced the PC. I'm not really brain dead - I own my own company, travel around 100,000 miles a year on business, and do all admin work, including accounting, on my computers.
Well congrats on the new grandbaby coming. You are exactly the customer Apple needs to highlight. People doing good things their way with Apple tools that allow them to handle things that would normally require another staff person.
Originally posted by geekmeet
apple is NOT about price/performance.
Apple doesn't have to win in price/performance, but they do have to be in the same ballpark. Lots of people will pay a 25% premium for the Mac user experience, but very few will pay double the price for half the performance, which is the situation with iMacs today.
Originally posted by 3.1416
Apple doesn't have to win in price/performance, but they do have to be in the same ballpark. Lots of people will pay a 25% premium for the Mac user experience, but very few will pay double the price for half the performance, which is the situation with iMacs today.
This is right on the money. Every AI member should just read this post over and over until it finally sinks in. I'm looking at you, geekmeet
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
This is right on the money. Every AI member should just read this post over and over until it finally sinks in. I'm looking at you, geekmeet
You're right... and ok, geekmeet might be a little off by saying so emphatically that Apple isn't about price / performance, but to bring this back to the original topic...
Just because the iMac offers poor price / performance right now doesn't mean the the answer is to get rid of the iMac. That's just a ridiculous extrapolation. It's also pretty irrelevant to talk about how the AIO form factor doesn't fit the needs of some AI'ers. Most AI members would be better classified as enthusiasts or pro-sumer.
The iMac is an AIO and always will be. The iMac is targeted at people who want the best ease of use. Obviously ease of use has a different value to different people, just like performance has a different value. Apparently a couple hundred thousand people per quarter think that the value of the iMac is work the price. There are certainly many, many who do not.
The way I see it, this reoccurring topic is mixing two separate issues:
1) Is the iMac worth it's price? If not, what should be done about it? Making it cheaper and increasing the value (performance, ease-of-use) are the obvious steps.
2) What kind of computer does the enthusiast / pro-sumer want? Does Apple make such a thing? Are they close? Have they ever been? How much should it cost?
What people usually describe is something very close to the Cube. They don't describe it that way though. They'd rather try to turn the iMac into something it isn't. Why? I don't know. Maybe they're getting too caught up in the Cube's initial high price and subsequent failure. I think they should first ask what features / form factor they want, and then say how much they'll pay for it.
Looking at it that way, to me at least, it seems like people want a modern Cube that costs less. I would love it if these threads were named "Bring back the Cube", but oh well.
S
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Originally posted by spankalee
What people usually describe is something very close to the Cube.
There is also one variant of this discussed before on these boards. I talk about the famous pizza boxes, iBook or Powerbook corpses without the head
Originally posted by PB
There is also one variant of this discussed before on these boards. I talk about the famous pizza boxes, iBook or Powerbook corpses without the head
So you want an Apple IIc with a G5?
90 nm G5 - 2.0/2.2/2.4
FSB that compares to the G5 PM
Easter memory, maybe close to the PM's, depending on costs.
All the other little bits, like a faster HD used in the G5 PMs
There have been too many comments in the past about the G5 being cheaper than the G4 to believe that the next iMac will not be a G5.
It's important to understand that Apple has some very bright guys in the design AND engineering areas. Their potential to evolve the AIO iMac to something that will blow our minds is definitely there. The DESIRE is also there, especially with the penetration the iPod has made into the Windows market. Finally, the upgrade of the eMac has pushed the iMac performance target to a very high level. I believe that the eMac upgrade was initially intended for after the introduction of the next iMac, but IBM's fab problems caused them to go ahead and announce it before the iMac. I therefore believe that the performance difference between the eMac and next generation iMac will be very much in line with the pricing difference.
Actually, one last thought - while I have long considered that Apple will move to the iMac being the single processor G5 and the PM being the dual option I now believe that the iMac will be the high performance single chip (along with the G5 PB) and Apple will migrate the low end (iBook & eMac) to G5's as chip availability is increased and speed has broken the 3 gig barrier - probably about 6 months after deliveries start on the 3 gig G5 PMs.
Originally posted by Eugene
How about giving us some investment tips while you're at it, Messiahtosh? Which mutual funds should I put on my watch list?
Thats rude.
Originally posted by Dave K.
Thats rude.
I second that. Even though Messiahtosh may not be dead on with giving up on the iMac, her reasoning is there.
Originally posted by BigMcLargehuge
Why is it whenever anyone mentions their experiences with AIO some asswipe has to post a smartass rhetorical question...
And, for the record, unless iMac's start randomly exploding and maiming their users, they do no harm to Apple. Apple's line is differentiated enough that one semi-dud product won't sink them.
It's all about what the user wants out of the computing experience, and complain all you want about non-pros using computers, they are customers too and they have specific computing needs that probably don't involve gaming, multimedia design, audio editing, video rendering, and any mid-high end ap stuff. But then, that was in my post and you didn't read that far.
You misread. I wasn't saying nasty things about your mother so back off. In you're defense of the product, you called it a semi-dud. That hurts Apple! The iMac is their flagship product. It is iconic. It cannot afford to be any kind of a dud. Think about it. It cannot have mass switcher appeal if people only see it as a kids computer. Apple's flagship product should not be looked down on. That is especially true at the price they sell it for.
Is it the product for the rest of us? If the AI people don't much respect it, and the other 98% don't want it, then who are "the rest of us" this product is meant for? This should not be news. The average consumer values either power or low price. They would prefer both. But they will take one or the other. If the product is perceived to have neither, then it will not sell to "the rest of us". All I am saying is that Apple has got to be willing to give the iMac one or the other for it to get out of the small niche it occupies.
Peace.
If you asked them a year later, when they weren't being bombarded with Winblows critical updates and spyware updates and basically plug their cameras/camcorders into their iMacs and edit their photos/movies and easily burn them onto DVDs/slideshows, they really wouldn't think much about the price/performance issue. Let's face it, the majority of people buy new computers for the "bang" factor, but never use it to it's full extent. Hell, who does? Point being, and Apple has been about this since day one, a computer should make things easier. I bet the majority of people out there would agree that if a computer could make things much easier, do things in a more productive manner, and still have a decent lifespan, they would buy any kind of computer, beit a Dell, HP, IBM or a Mac. Consumers really don't think it through though - they see the almighty $$$ and say that Macs are overpriced.
I pissed away too much of my life dealing with Wintel idiocy and have given up on that realm. I'd much rather do things simple and in a productive manner, rather than deal with the hodgepodge of crap that is Wintel. Never again!
More to the point, Apple needs to figure out a way to convince people of that. If they want a boatload more sales numbers, the low-cost iMac did it for them. Fine. Give people a low-cost Mac again. Like I said, I have come to this realization. Most consumers have not and will deal with the BS that is Windows.
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
You misread. I wasn't saying nasty things about your mother so back off. In you're defense of the product, you called it a semi-dud. That hurts Apple! The iMac is their flagship product. It is iconic. It cannot afford to be any kind of a dud. Think about it. It cannot have mass switcher appeal if people only see it as a kids computer. Apple's flagship product should not be looked down on. That is especially true at the price they sell it for.
Is it the product for the rest of us? If the AI people don't much respect it, and the other 98% don't want it, then who are "the rest of us" this product is meant for? This should not be news. The average consumer values either power or low price. They would prefer both. But they will take one or the other. If the product is perceived to have neither, then it will not sell to "the rest of us". All I am saying is that Apple has got to be willing to give the iMac one or the other for it to get out of the small niche it occupies.
Peace.
Fine. I retract my "asswipe" comment, but that's all. The iMac isn't the flagship anymore, the iBook and Powerbook seem to be leading the flotilla at present. I'd like to see them drop the price too, but if they don't they don't and no amount of armchair Apple-running is gonna change it.
Will they update them for the WWDC? I don't know. Why? What are they going to be used for? Is Pixar going to render Nemo 2 on them? I doubt it. It's a consumer machine. Yeah, it's more expensive than a Dell, and a BMW is more expensive than a Chevy. BMW for what it's worth doesn't scale up or reduce the prices of their 325 line because people aren't buying them in droves. They know t here is still and audence for them, and for the cheapskates and non-boutique folks they release a mini for almost half the cost. There's no shame in it, I like the mini. Sure it's more expensive than a comparably sized and equipped Toyota, but it's got a cool factor to it.
That's the eMac.
and yeah, one semi-dud isn't going to kill them. The cube didn't kill them. The flaming Powerbooks (5400s?) didn't kill them. 1st Gen G4 towers didn't kill them. iBook system board malfunctions didn't kill them. Spotty screened Powerbooks didn't kill them. Inability to meet G5 orders for MONTHS didn't kill them. Underperforming iMacs won't kill them either.
[i]
and yeah, one semi-dud isn't going to kill them. The cube didn't kill them. The flaming Powerbooks (5400s?) didn't kill them. 1st Gen G4 towers didn't kill them. iBook system board malfunctions didn't kill them. Spotty screened Powerbooks didn't kill them. Inability to meet G5 orders for MONTHS didn't kill them. Underperforming iMacs won't kill them either. [/B]
I only disagree about one thing. The iMac is the flagship product. It is the iconic Mac. Often, it is the only Mac people know about, at least by name. They may still think it comes with a CRT, but they know about it. It is the first thing that catches the attention at an Apple store. It simply cannot afford to be lackluster. And for the record, I never said the iMac would kill Apple. I said it would hurt them if they didn't correct it or kill it. All the examples you gave hurt Apple to some extent. The iMac is doing the same. The difference is that Apple quickly took measures to correct those problems. The iMac has had problems almost from day one and Apple has not been so energetic about addressing it. The length of time they have lived with the problem bothers me more than the problem itself. Make no mistake about it. It does hurt Apple. But of course, it won't kill them.
If you want a basic, cheap computer that does what it's supposed to do ... then go to dell.com
If you want an expensive toy that does all that computer stuff very elegantly, then go to store.apple.com
Almost every industry is like this .. there are Mercedes vs Chevys... there is Continental Airlines vs JetBlue Airlines... there's a Maytag Freezer or a SubZero made of stainless steel. ...
Personally, I like the Apple computers, the Mercedes (well, I'd rather drive a BMW), the Continental BusinessFirst seats ... etc.