Be fairminded---look back 200 years at Europe and Western thought in general---look at the advances. When you do, look back 500, 1000 years and see the fundamental changes, from the divine right of kings to the Manga Carta to Democracy in America.
I can't help but think that English constitutional history would have developed a bit differently under a Manga Carta than under that boring old Magna Carta.
As for the current problems in the middle east, the grand irony of the situation is that the USA went to war on a secular state (which they happily supported until it emperilled US oil supplies by invading Kuwait and potentially encouraging regional destabilisation!), claiming that this would help prevent Islamic extremism. Somehow that doesn't make as much sense as one would hope for in a justification of a war. And what's more, rather than waiting for the UN to catch up on regime change, they decided to go it alone, and help foster the perception that they have some special issue with Islamic states in general. I think this will go down in history as one of the greatest strategic mistakes ever.
Did they not do any research into the seriously divided nature of Iraq at all?
In terms of causation of the whole situation in the ME, I don't really think its a particularly unusual situation to see in a newly modernising traditional society for traditional ethnic/religious rivalries to continue and escalate when a strong central state (like the Ottoman empire or the British colonial mandates) is withdrawn. Just look at the mess left behind in Africa by the colonial powers ? there are some very strong parallels.
....for an action movie, yes. I saw it when it came out---I never under stood why it didn't do better. Maybe attention spans aren't what they should be. Ever see Le Grand bleu?
Do you mean there is no-one hating Jews in the US (surely not ?) or you see no Jews hating there ?
Also London - who is doing the hating ? The muslims or other people to the muslims ?
Don't understand.....
In the US of A, I don't see it in the streets. I just happened to see some anti-Muslim graffitti in the streets of London the other day. That's all. I never see overt racist attacks on Jews in the US of A.
I think we need a clash of civilizations (I don't say I want one - need is different) - if these maniacs are going to actually introduce this level of 'thought' into the human story then I say 'Bring it on'.
Let's get it over with - put these nutters to the sword and move on. The gene pool won't miss them and it will save more lives in the long run.
We'll all be better off.
I think we all need to be careful what we post on the forums.
I am all for an all out discussion but I just fear if we are not extremely careful we say things that hurt others.
The only hotbed of racism I know of is the human mind, all peoples, nations can be guilty of it. I proudly wore my Anti-Nazi League badge back in the late 70's when the NF were at their pathetic zenith, we do have to be very wary of the BNP especially oop North, however, I do not look forward with such zeal to race riots.
In the Arab/Israeli conflict i think it is the basic racism of those that think the other side are of lesser worth than their side, whether that be those who think nothing of destroying houses and civilians by bulldozer and helicopter and those that think a cafe or bus is a good place to kill and maim.
Islam calls the Christians and Jews people of the book, this naked hatred for each other is not inevitable, we need less soldiers and more statesmen. Peace.
The only hotbed of racism I know of is the human mind, all peoples, nations can be guilty of it. I proudly wore my Anti-Nazi League badge back in the late 70's when the NF were at their pathetic zenith, we do have to be very wary of the BNP especially oop North, however, I do not look forward with such zeal to race riots.
In the Arab/Israeli conflict i think it is the basic racism of those that think the other side are of lesser worth than their side, whether that be those who think nothing of destroying houses and civilians by bulldozer and helicopter and those that think a cafe or bus is a good place to kill and maim.
Islam calls the Christians and Jews people of the book, this naked hatred for each other is not inevitable, we need less soldiers and more statesmen. Peace.
Thankyou Fellowship, for your PM and post, you have made me blush and feel quite good about myself, you are a true gentle-man. Segovius, thanks for the clarification, go and give that planet sized brain of yours some chillin', who knows maybe your inherent internationalism will survive the westward journey over the Severn bridges one day! Peace and Love !
There was a time in History when the dictorial regiems that set Islam apart today would be standard operating procedure for ANY culture, from Calvin's Geneva, to 18th century France to feudal Japan.
Unfortunalty Islam is being left in the past, as most other religions/ideologies have transformed themselves to advance freedom (dirty little secret here, freedom hinges on self government---not subserviance to the One.)
You seem to forget a lot of history: The islamic world has been under occupation for the last few hundred years, first the ottomans occupied the islamic world by usurping the kalif-leadership and then later on abolishing it, second the england/france-colonialism, which freed the islamic world from the ottomans at the request of the arabic world, third the neocolonialism pursued by the USA by installing, financing, supporting of dictatorships throughout the islamic world since the end of worldwar2 until today.
This region has produced the three most militant religions history has seen: judaic, christian and muslim believes, all going back to the same roots.
Each of those has left a trail of blood throughout its existance whereever it went. Christianity and Judaism were transformed over the centuries to become more mellow - with the Holocaust however, militant currents among the Jewish have surfaced that did not previously exist.
What we are seing there is a clash of religions all right.
I don't think the Middle-East is more important than other places. The whole area has only been important in very small periods of modern history. 150 years ago the powers of Europe concentrated about the US.
Looking at the just last fifty years, Latin-America, Europe, South-East Asia have all played much more important roles as the battlegorunds of ideologies and super-powers.
With the end of the cold war, other places of conflict have faded while the ME situation has revitalized. Israel/Palestine has always been a symbol conflict. More people die in car accidents in smaller american states each year than in this conflict. The fate of Rwanda, the Gypsies of Eastern-Europe or Tibet are incredibly underrepresented in the news.
It's all about ideology. Had the locals been left to fix their own business, things would probably have been just fine there. I believe democratization would have come a whole lot longer.
As long as foreign power mess around to protect their self interest, there is bound to be conflict. If Israel was to stop receiving financial aid from Washington, there would shortly be no funds to maintain the level of conflict. We would see a totally different attitude towards negotiating a peace with the palestinians. Out of necessity.
I believe it is just because of our short attention-span that we think the Middle-East is so important. Go see Rambo from the 80's and see how nice all the Afghans are portrayed.
This region has produced the three most militant religions history has seen: judaic, christian and muslim believes, all going back to the same roots.
Each of those has left a trail of blood throughout its existance whereever it went.
What a great demonstration of ignorance: It's not the religions who are sheding blood, but humans disregarding their religion for short-term gain. Nonetheless even the people who are religious can commit atrocities, those that don't follow any religion commited much worse atrocities! The Holocaust by Hitler, the massacres and gulags of Stalin, Chausescu, the atom-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ...
This thread has been pretty good and has brought in a lot of discussion about the history of the violence in the ME. But, I would like to ask for some more comments on possible solutions. I see very few, so I won't make any comments right now, but this board is full of pretty intelligent people, so I am sure there must be some out there. I do wonder, can peace exist with Israel in the area? What actions could Israel take to help provide for a solution? Does peace in the ME have to include security for Israel? Can it? If Israel gave up all territory from pre 67, would there be peace? Can there be peace with any meaningful population of jews in the ME?
This thread has been pretty good and has brought in a lot of discussion about the history of the violence in the ME. But, I would like to ask for some more comments on possible solutions. I see very few, so I won't make any comments right now, but this board is full of pretty intelligent people, so I am sure there must be some out there. I do wonder, can peace exist with Israel in the area? What actions could Israel take to help provide for a solution? Does peace in the ME have to include security for Israel? Can it? If Israel gave up all territory from pre 67, would there be peace? Can there be peace with any meaningful population of jews in the ME?
I believe the answer is yes.
.
.
.
.
To be a bit more precise, I think the 67 borders is the best way to go. Mostly because they can be understood (and thereby more easily accepted) by everyone. An international peacekeeping force could be very helpful in guarding these borders.
Like I said earlier, I believe a solution would be much easier to achieve if all the external parties with interests in the conflict would butt-out. The refugee question can be solved without the return of all Palestinian refugees to israel.
So the arab states need to do some serious work on integration. Recognition, apology and compensation have always been a good way of dealing with problems like this. And I actually think compensation is the least important.
On the other hand jews and christians in the rest of the world, especially in the US, need to start minding their own business. As long as they make Israel the battlefield of their religious-political agendas there will be problems.
The next step would be to create a small-scale political and economic union between the smaller nations in the wester ME, after an early EU -type model. Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan for starters. Economic ties and cooperation will make further conflict much less desirable. But all this is ofcourse in a very theoretical and distant future.
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
There is no group of people that haven't been disliked for as long as they've been around.
Not to the same degree and not as wide spread..and not as cross-culturally pervasive.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Not to the same degree and not as wide spread..and not as cross-culturally pervasive.
Support this belief. I don't see any Jew hatred in the US of A, but I do see Muslim hatred on the streets here in London.
Originally posted by bunge
Support this belief. I don't see any Jew hatred in the US of A, but I do see Muslim hatred on the streets here in London.
You don't see any Jew hatred in the US?.............um.....kkk, Nation of Islam, neo-nazis, good ol boys...forget it.......
Originally posted by dmz
Be fairminded---look back 200 years at Europe and Western thought in general---look at the advances. When you do, look back 500, 1000 years and see the fundamental changes, from the divine right of kings to the Manga Carta to Democracy in America.
I can't help but think that English constitutional history would have developed a bit differently under a Manga Carta than under that boring old Magna Carta.
As for the current problems in the middle east, the grand irony of the situation is that the USA went to war on a secular state (which they happily supported until it emperilled US oil supplies by invading Kuwait and potentially encouraging regional destabilisation!), claiming that this would help prevent Islamic extremism. Somehow that doesn't make as much sense as one would hope for in a justification of a war. And what's more, rather than waiting for the UN to catch up on regime change, they decided to go it alone, and help foster the perception that they have some special issue with Islamic states in general. I think this will go down in history as one of the greatest strategic mistakes ever.
Did they not do any research into the seriously divided nature of Iraq at all?
In terms of causation of the whole situation in the ME, I don't really think its a particularly unusual situation to see in a newly modernising traditional society for traditional ethnic/religious rivalries to continue and escalate when a strong central state (like the Ottoman empire or the British colonial mandates) is withdrawn. Just look at the mess left behind in Africa by the colonial powers ? there are some very strong parallels.
Originally posted by segovius
Was it all that you hoped it would be ?
....for an action movie, yes. I saw it when it came out---I never under stood why it didn't do better. Maybe attention spans aren't what they should be. Ever see Le Grand bleu?
Originally posted by segovius
Do you mean there is no-one hating Jews in the US (surely not ?) or you see no Jews hating there ?
Also London - who is doing the hating ? The muslims or other people to the muslims ?
Don't understand.....
In the US of A, I don't see it in the streets. I just happened to see some anti-Muslim graffitti in the streets of London the other day. That's all. I never see overt racist attacks on Jews in the US of A.
Originally posted by segovius
Ah, well that's not surprising - Britain is a hotbed of racism. Always has been.
This summer you will see some full-on race riots without a doubt. All the factors are in place.
Back on-topic. Middle east problem, who is responsible (as of now, not historically):
Bush and the 'Christian' Zionists
I think we need a clash of civilizations (I don't say I want one - need is different) - if these maniacs are going to actually introduce this level of 'thought' into the human story then I say 'Bring it on'.
Let's get it over with - put these nutters to the sword and move on. The gene pool won't miss them and it will save more lives in the long run.
We'll all be better off.
I think we all need to be careful what we post on the forums.
I am all for an all out discussion but I just fear if we are not extremely careful we say things that hurt others.
With tremendous respect,
Fellows
Fellows
The troubles in the world do take a toll on us all.
In the Arab/Israeli conflict i think it is the basic racism of those that think the other side are of lesser worth than their side, whether that be those who think nothing of destroying houses and civilians by bulldozer and helicopter and those that think a cafe or bus is a good place to kill and maim.
Islam calls the Christians and Jews people of the book, this naked hatred for each other is not inevitable, we need less soldiers and more statesmen. Peace.
Originally posted by Alex London
The only hotbed of racism I know of is the human mind, all peoples, nations can be guilty of it. I proudly wore my Anti-Nazi League badge back in the late 70's when the NF were at their pathetic zenith, we do have to be very wary of the BNP especially oop North, however, I do not look forward with such zeal to race riots.
In the Arab/Israeli conflict i think it is the basic racism of those that think the other side are of lesser worth than their side, whether that be those who think nothing of destroying houses and civilians by bulldozer and helicopter and those that think a cafe or bus is a good place to kill and maim.
Islam calls the Christians and Jews people of the book, this naked hatred for each other is not inevitable, we need less soldiers and more statesmen. Peace.
Thank you for this post!
Added a missing comma, bad Alex.
Originally posted by dmz
There was a time in History when the dictorial regiems that set Islam apart today would be standard operating procedure for ANY culture, from Calvin's Geneva, to 18th century France to feudal Japan.
Unfortunalty Islam is being left in the past, as most other religions/ideologies have transformed themselves to advance freedom (dirty little secret here, freedom hinges on self government---not subserviance to the One.)
You seem to forget a lot of history: The islamic world has been under occupation for the last few hundred years, first the ottomans occupied the islamic world by usurping the kalif-leadership and then later on abolishing it, second the england/france-colonialism, which freed the islamic world from the ottomans at the request of the arabic world, third the neocolonialism pursued by the USA by installing, financing, supporting of dictatorships throughout the islamic world since the end of worldwar2 until today.
Nightcrawler
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Many events came from middle east.
This region has produced the three most militant religions history has seen: judaic, christian and muslim believes, all going back to the same roots.
Each of those has left a trail of blood throughout its existance whereever it went. Christianity and Judaism were transformed over the centuries to become more mellow - with the Holocaust however, militant currents among the Jewish have surfaced that did not previously exist.
What we are seing there is a clash of religions all right.
Originally posted by Alex London
Thankyou Fellowship, for your PM and post, you have made me blush and feel quite good about myself, you are a true gentle-man.
I just really really appreciate people of character who speak words of peace and hope.
Ideas are free but only half at most are worth keeping..
"The good ones". I wish our world had leaders who solve problems with good ideas as compared to flawed and misguided ideas as we see far too often.
Thank you for your post Alex.
With admiration of your contribution to this thread,
Fellowship
Originally posted by Alex London
The only hotbed of racism I know of is the human mind, all peoples, nations can be guilty of it.
Exactly what I was saying a page or so ago.
Looking at the just last fifty years, Latin-America, Europe, South-East Asia have all played much more important roles as the battlegorunds of ideologies and super-powers.
With the end of the cold war, other places of conflict have faded while the ME situation has revitalized. Israel/Palestine has always been a symbol conflict. More people die in car accidents in smaller american states each year than in this conflict. The fate of Rwanda, the Gypsies of Eastern-Europe or Tibet are incredibly underrepresented in the news.
It's all about ideology. Had the locals been left to fix their own business, things would probably have been just fine there. I believe democratization would have come a whole lot longer.
As long as foreign power mess around to protect their self interest, there is bound to be conflict. If Israel was to stop receiving financial aid from Washington, there would shortly be no funds to maintain the level of conflict. We would see a totally different attitude towards negotiating a peace with the palestinians. Out of necessity.
I believe it is just because of our short attention-span that we think the Middle-East is so important. Go see Rambo from the 80's and see how nice all the Afghans are portrayed.
Originally posted by Smircle
This region has produced the three most militant religions history has seen: judaic, christian and muslim believes, all going back to the same roots.
Each of those has left a trail of blood throughout its existance whereever it went.
What a great demonstration of ignorance: It's not the religions who are sheding blood, but humans disregarding their religion for short-term gain. Nonetheless even the people who are religious can commit atrocities, those that don't follow any religion commited much worse atrocities! The Holocaust by Hitler, the massacres and gulags of Stalin, Chausescu, the atom-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ...
are all atrocities committed by secular regimes.
Nightcrawler
Originally posted by Tulkas
This thread has been pretty good and has brought in a lot of discussion about the history of the violence in the ME. But, I would like to ask for some more comments on possible solutions. I see very few, so I won't make any comments right now, but this board is full of pretty intelligent people, so I am sure there must be some out there. I do wonder, can peace exist with Israel in the area? What actions could Israel take to help provide for a solution? Does peace in the ME have to include security for Israel? Can it? If Israel gave up all territory from pre 67, would there be peace? Can there be peace with any meaningful population of jews in the ME?
I believe the answer is yes.
.
.
.
.
To be a bit more precise, I think the 67 borders is the best way to go. Mostly because they can be understood (and thereby more easily accepted) by everyone. An international peacekeeping force could be very helpful in guarding these borders.
Like I said earlier, I believe a solution would be much easier to achieve if all the external parties with interests in the conflict would butt-out. The refugee question can be solved without the return of all Palestinian refugees to israel.
So the arab states need to do some serious work on integration. Recognition, apology and compensation have always been a good way of dealing with problems like this. And I actually think compensation is the least important.
On the other hand jews and christians in the rest of the world, especially in the US, need to start minding their own business. As long as they make Israel the battlefield of their religious-political agendas there will be problems.
The next step would be to create a small-scale political and economic union between the smaller nations in the wester ME, after an early EU -type model. Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan for starters. Economic ties and cooperation will make further conflict much less desirable. But all this is ofcourse in a very theoretical and distant future.
bling bling...