his program runs 3 times faster under XP than under OS X! It is evident that there exist somewhere a serious bottleneck in OS X's implementation of Java. Apple needs to correct this.
There is absolutely nothing evident from this. It's yet another pointless micro-benchmark, which is rendered even more bizarre by comparing willy-nilly across architectures and JVMs.
If the guy had any sense he would have compared the same JVM on the iBook and the Centrino under Linux to at least give some idea of how much of the difference was hardware rather than software (note that the Centrino had more RAM, which is always a good idea with Java, and that hard disk speeds aren't listed). But as far as I can tell he only listed the JVM used under Yellow Dog.
But the clincher is that he did some 'tweaking' and changed a 30% advantage into a 200% advantage to the PC. Who's to say a bit more tweaking wouldn't have reversed this situation?
I have always had trouble with Java on my iBook and never on my PC.
For two examples I use Java based streaming real-time quotes windows on the sites: Ameritrade and Scottrade to watch the activity of the markets and with most browsers I have crashes. Safari which I like most of the time just can't do these Java based real-time streamig quote windows of either site. With Safari for example I get a spinning beach ball and app crashes.
I have found Netscape capable on OSX to handle these Java based real-time streaming quote windows yet even with that browser there are flaws in the rendering of the windows.
When I first got my iBook several years ago one of the very first flaws I found on the mac platform was the problems with Java. Sad to say nothing has changed with my OS and Browser upgrades over the years.
Anyone having the impression the Gç is slow may wants to check the benchmark stats for the distributed.net clients. My laptop (G4 1.5GHz) eats any (ANY) Intel alive!
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever..
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Sounds like an excuse to me. If every Java app is slower on OS X than in Wintel then I think we know what's going on. I think we just have to face facts that Java blows on OS X for no good reason.
Anyone having the impression the Gç is slow may wants to check the benchmark stats for the distributed.net clients. My laptop (G4 1.5GHz) eats any (ANY) Intel alive!
RC5-72 test
G4 1.5 15,834,689.00\t
Intel Pentium 4\t3.350\t7,919,534.00
That has nothing to do with execution of Java on the G4. It's a totally different beast, that is in no way as G4-friendly as the RC5-72 benchmark.
But yes, RC5 is nice, but it's totally off-topic. :-)
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
That has nothing to do with execution of Java on the G4. It's a totally different beast, that is in no way as G4-friendly as the RC5-72 benchmark.
But yes, RC5 is nice, but it's totally off-topic. :-)
Right! But calling the G4 dog slow in general is as off-topic as it can get ...
Concerning Java, it just occurred to me that in general Java seems to be a bit lacking on RISC platforms. Maybe bytecode interpretation and JIT compilation is easier to "get right" on a CISC platform. RISC relies a lot on having optimizing compilers that get the last bit of performance out of the CPU.
Compared to native code, Java has really no decent performance on the Mac Platform (I do not thnk this is related to the OS). I guess Java really takes profit of raw stupid CPU speed (cycle speed = GHz) because it's not compiled code and optimizing it for a RISC ngine may be too costly to do it in a JIT.
As Airsluf and others mentioned, Java is not slow on the OS X (or RISC sheesh!).
You should be moaning on how yet again MS has its own bastardized version of javascript for IE. MS do not stick to any standards but their own. There are certainly not interested in any cross-platform compatibility.
There are also some graphics related techniques that cause OS X to look like it is slower than it really is because you do not have to double buffer within OS X JVMs (because Quartz does it for you) where you do in Win JVMs, so Win Java code actually triple buffers on OS X before display which can look like a 50-66% slowdown if timed like a benchmark.
Do you state in the Java code that it should double buffer?
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Java runs well on the Mac. Just make sure you have enough RAM to throw at it.
I am using an iBook with 500mhz G3 and 640mb of RAM, however most graphically rich or apps with moderately complex GUI runs very slow on my computer, when compared to a similar grade PC. For example, games on Yahoo.com runs very slow, as well as a host of Java-based IDEs (NetBeans, JBuilder, Eclipse, etc.)
It doesn't matter if the java is for windows or poorly written. Even if they are written with windows specific stuff, I expect from apple to find a way to mimic it and make it work fast. I know when I'm at work on windows internet explorer i don't have to worry about java sites working or going super slow. They will just work.
On my mac at home it's either slow, buggy, crashes, or sometimes work.
I'm not making it up. People who have both machines side by side can attest to that. I don't care what the problem is, I don't care if it's not apple's fault. I just wan them to find a way to make it like windows...
Don't give me a reason to have to keep my windows box.
"I don't care whose fault it is, Apple should fix it."
That's... asinine, sorry.
There are Java developers and web developers who still think that there's nothing out there but IE and MS's JVM... blame them.
With standard Java compliant code, and standards compliant *ML, the Mac does really well.
Standards are there for a reason... if something doesn't work well, go bitch to the real problem... the lazy developers.
That being said, there is a small % difference between MS's JVM and Apple's... mostly in places where MS broke the standards to get a bit of a speed gain. Which do you want?
"I don't care whose fault it is, Apple should fix it."
That's... asinine, sorry.
There are Java developers and web developers who still think that there's nothing out there but IE and MS's JVM... blame them.
With standard Java compliant code, and standards compliant *ML, the Mac does really well.
Standards are there for a reason... if something doesn't work well, go bitch to the real problem... the lazy developers.
That being said, there is a small % difference between MS's JVM and Apple's... mostly in places where MS broke the standards to get a bit of a speed gain. Which do you want?
Not only that, but Microsoft lost a lawsuit brought against it by Sun over this issue. Now M$ must distribute a standards-compliant JVM. So, the non-standard Java applications are serving a declining market.
Comments
Originally posted by PB
his program runs 3 times faster under XP than under OS X! It is evident that there exist somewhere a serious bottleneck in OS X's implementation of Java. Apple needs to correct this.
There is absolutely nothing evident from this. It's yet another pointless micro-benchmark, which is rendered even more bizarre by comparing willy-nilly across architectures and JVMs.
If the guy had any sense he would have compared the same JVM on the iBook and the Centrino under Linux to at least give some idea of how much of the difference was hardware rather than software (note that the Centrino had more RAM, which is always a good idea with Java, and that hard disk speeds aren't listed). But as far as I can tell he only listed the JVM used under Yellow Dog.
But the clincher is that he did some 'tweaking' and changed a 30% advantage into a 200% advantage to the PC. Who's to say a bit more tweaking wouldn't have reversed this situation?
For two examples I use Java based streaming real-time quotes windows on the sites: Ameritrade and Scottrade to watch the activity of the markets and with most browsers I have crashes. Safari which I like most of the time just can't do these Java based real-time streamig quote windows of either site. With Safari for example I get a spinning beach ball and app crashes.
I have found Netscape capable on OSX to handle these Java based real-time streaming quote windows yet even with that browser there are flaws in the rendering of the windows.
When I first got my iBook several years ago one of the very first flaws I found on the mac platform was the problems with Java. Sad to say nothing has changed with my OS and Browser upgrades over the years.
Fellowship
RC5-72 test
G4 1.5 15,834,689.00\t
Intel Pentium 4\t3.350\t7,919,534.00
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever..
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Originally posted by BNOYHTUAWB
Anyone having the impression the Gç is slow may wants to check the benchmark stats for the distributed.net clients. My laptop (G4 1.5GHz) eats any (ANY) Intel alive!
RC5-72 test
G4 1.5 15,834,689.00\t
Intel Pentium 4\t3.350\t7,919,534.00
That has nothing to do with execution of Java on the G4. It's a totally different beast, that is in no way as G4-friendly as the RC5-72 benchmark.
But yes, RC5 is nice, but it's totally off-topic. :-)
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Originally posted by Zapchud
That has nothing to do with execution of Java on the G4. It's a totally different beast, that is in no way as G4-friendly as the RC5-72 benchmark.
But yes, RC5 is nice, but it's totally off-topic. :-)
Right! But calling the G4 dog slow in general is as off-topic as it can get ...
Concerning Java, it just occurred to me that in general Java seems to be a bit lacking on RISC platforms. Maybe bytecode interpretation and JIT compilation is easier to "get right" on a CISC platform. RISC relies a lot on having optimizing compilers that get the last bit of performance out of the CPU.
Compared to native code, Java has really no decent performance on the Mac Platform (I do not thnk this is related to the OS). I guess Java really takes profit of raw stupid CPU speed (cycle speed = GHz) because it's not compiled code and optimizing it for a RISC ngine may be too costly to do it in a JIT.
You should be moaning on how yet again MS has its own bastardized version of javascript for IE. MS do not stick to any standards but their own. There are certainly not interested in any cross-platform compatibility.
Dobby.
Originally posted by AirSluf
There are also some graphics related techniques that cause OS X to look like it is slower than it really is because you do not have to double buffer within OS X JVMs (because Quartz does it for you) where you do in Win JVMs, so Win Java code actually triple buffers on OS X before display which can look like a 50-66% slowdown if timed like a benchmark.
Do you state in the Java code that it should double buffer?
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Originally posted by talksense101
Java runs well on the Mac. Just make sure you have enough RAM to throw at it.
I am using an iBook with 500mhz G3 and 640mb of RAM, however most graphically rich or apps with moderately complex GUI runs very slow on my computer, when compared to a similar grade PC. For example, games on Yahoo.com runs very slow, as well as a host of Java-based IDEs (NetBeans, JBuilder, Eclipse, etc.)
On my mac at home it's either slow, buggy, crashes, or sometimes work.
I'm not making it up. People who have both machines side by side can attest to that. I don't care what the problem is, I don't care if it's not apple's fault. I just wan them to find a way to make it like windows...
Don't give me a reason to have to keep my windows box.
That's... asinine, sorry.
There are Java developers and web developers who still think that there's nothing out there but IE and MS's JVM... blame them.
With standard Java compliant code, and standards compliant *ML, the Mac does really well.
Standards are there for a reason... if something doesn't work well, go bitch to the real problem... the lazy developers.
That being said, there is a small % difference between MS's JVM and Apple's... mostly in places where MS broke the standards to get a bit of a speed gain. Which do you want?
Originally posted by Kickaha
"I don't care whose fault it is, Apple should fix it."
That's... asinine, sorry.
There are Java developers and web developers who still think that there's nothing out there but IE and MS's JVM... blame them.
With standard Java compliant code, and standards compliant *ML, the Mac does really well.
Standards are there for a reason... if something doesn't work well, go bitch to the real problem... the lazy developers.
That being said, there is a small % difference between MS's JVM and Apple's... mostly in places where MS broke the standards to get a bit of a speed gain. Which do you want?
Not only that, but Microsoft lost a lawsuit brought against it by Sun over this issue. Now M$ must distribute a standards-compliant JVM. So, the non-standard Java applications are serving a declining market.